SOLVED. Philosophical experiment proving the existence of God [s]

[Kate]

I read this book in the 1980s, but I think it was much older than that -- possibly the 40s or 50s. This was about a years long experiment trying to prove that God and belief in God is a rational thing. A group of children were raised in isolation -- perhaps on an island. They are given a "classical" education, except nothing about God (or gods) is included. They may speak Latin, and I think they were named with Latin counting words: Primus, Prima, Secondus, etc. When the children reach late teens, they call a convocation in which they debate with their teachers about whether there is a God.

[Kate]

Bump

This is an old book, with a distinct agenda, trying to explain why the author thinks that belief in God is a rational thing. I hope someone remembers the title. I'm going to do another google search and see if anything new comes up.

[Andy]

This sounds a little like this book, but there's only one child http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledg...

[Kate]

Thanks, Andy, but that's not the book. It was definitely a group of young people -- 20 or so.

[Pogue]

I hope that you find this book. It sounds like one I would like to read. Good Luck

[Kate]

This is just a vague impression, but I think the book had a very "Catholic" feel. It is definitely Christian, I think.

[Cheryl]

Something that would be more likely to be sold in Christian bookstores than mainstream stores?

[Kate]

The book had a dated feel, so I doubt that it's still in print. It was probably written in the 1950s, or earlier. I could definitely see it in a Christian or Catholic store from that period.

[Kate]

Bump

[Kate]

bump

[Kris]

This is clearly not your book, but thought I'd mention Calculating God since I notice you've read Robert J. Sawyer.

[Kate]

Kris, thanks for the suggestion. I just marked it as "To read." It looks good.

The book I'm looking for here is definitely science fiction. If I had to label it, it would be "religious philosophical fiction."

[Kate]

bumpus primus

[bookel]

I'm no help but was reminded of the below while searching here. I haven't read it, but heard of it on another forum. It is science fiction.

Otherborn by Joan Gould
A boy and his sister, separated from their boat, come ashore on a Pacific island inhabited by a race of people with a radically different conception of birth, aging, and death.

Jacket summary: Were Mark and Leggy really being held prisoner on this tropical island somewhere in the Pacific? The people of Hita Hee were kind to them, but why weren't they allowed to explore the hills? Why were orders always given by twelve-year-old Tanay, who spoke such strange old-fashioned English?
Before they had learned the answers to any of those questions, there came the day when they first saw the pack of white dogs burst into view, barking furiously. As if that were a signal, the natives leaped into their canoes and paddled away, soon to return with a most curious bundle. From that time on Mark and Leggy realized that these people had a secret. They couldn't discover what it was until they themselves were deeply involved. Finally they understood that this island was like no other place on earth.

[Kate]

This does sound good. On to my eternal to-read list!

[Cheryl]

Otherborn

[Feliks]

There's a book by John Updike (one of America's best novelists) called Roger's Version which treats of this theme. A pastor tries to find God by modeling organic life in computer programs; meanwhile his wife teaches him a thing or two about such matters from a completely different angle.

[Kate]

Thanks, Feliks. The Updike book looks good, and has some similar themes. The book I'm looking for is very formal telling of a story of 24 young people raised in isolation as part of an experiment. They're given a "classical" education, with no mention of God or anything divine. The goal is to see if the search or desire for God is inborn. It turns into a philosophical proof of the existence of God. Very Catholic/Jesuitical.

[Kate]

Bump

[Kate]

I still have hopes. It really would have been for a niche audience, probably in the 1950s -- Roman Catholics, I think.

[Justanotherbiblophile]

Hmm, you should try and find a forum where those type of readers hang out, and ask there since you've not gotten a response here in a year (although you did give this request one 5-month hiatus in bumping).

I had some good luck in hitting other forums when I'd stumped everyone here.

[Michele]

Hope this gets solved, I'd love to read it!

[Kate]

Bumpus, bumpi, for the Latin Jesuitical philosophy experiment.

[Michele]

There should be so much more "religious philosophical fiction" than there is!!

I can't quite tell from the blurb/reviews, but perhaps The Godforgotten? Although this sounds like the being cut off was an accident, not on purpose.

[Michele]

The problem with finding older books is that so many of them don't have descriptions or reviews anywhere. A search of WorldCat for religion+fiction 1920-1960 lists 199 titles but many of them that sound promising (e.g. The Return to Religion by Frank Ballard, or All Things Are Possible by Michael Everett) you just don't know. They're not even on Goodreads.

Was it a hardback or a paperback? Any rough idea of the page count (really thin, average, really thick)? Would you consider it aimed at a juvenile audience or adult audience?

[Kate]

Alas, it is not the Godforgotten. This was a hardback, around 200 pages, perhaps a little more. It described a theological/philosophical experiment to determine if belief in God was an innate part of being human. The kids -- twenty-four of them, I think -- were raised with a classical education except there was no mention of God or any supreme being. The young people are reaching maturity, and have called for a convocation with their teachers to ask questions that so far have been deferred.

I think it was aimed at an adult audience, or possibly high school audience.

[Kate]

Bump

[Michele]

I want to read this book SO BADLY. I really hope someone can solve this. It makes me think of the Jesuits -- they love debating theology. Would you recognize the author's name? Here is a list of Catholic authors...

There's a Jesuit university in my town, I think I'll send the description over to them and see if anyone there knows it.

[Kate]

I don't have any idea about the author; I browsed the list of Catholic authors and none triggered a memory.

The book does have a Jesuit tone to it.

[Kate]

Bump again. I do get interesting suggestions every time I bump.

[Michele]

I passed on the query to our local Jesuit university but (disappointingly) have had no suggestions as yet.

[Kate]

Thank you, Michele.

[D.M.]

Don't know the book, but the idea of children on an island like that is from the philosopher John Locke, from his Essay on Human Understanding:

This is all could be inferred from the notion of a God, were it to be found universally in all the tribes of mankind, and generally acknowledged, by men grown to maturity in all countries. For the generality of the acknowledging of a God, as I imagine, is extended no further than that; which, if it be sufficient to prove the idea of God innate, will as well prove the idea of fire innate; since I think it may be truly said, that there is not a person in the world who has a notion of a God, who has not also the idea of fire. I doubt not but if a colony of young children should be placed in an island where no fire was, they would certainly neither have any notion of such a thing, nor name for it, how generally soever it were received and known in all the world besides; and perhaps too their apprehensions would be as far removed from any name, or notion, of a God, till some one amongst them had employed his thoughts to inquire into the constitution and causes of things, which would easily lead him to the notion of a God; which having once taught to others, reason, and the natural propensity of their own thoughts, would afterwards propagate, and continue amongst them.

This might help locate the book.

[Kate]

Thanks for the link to Locke.

[Kate]

bumpus

[Kate]

As I've said, the book had a "Catholic" feel to it. I actually read it in a Catholic library. Alas, the library no longer exists so I cannot go back and look for it.

[Kate]

bump

[Kate]

bumping philosophical experiment

[Kate]

Still looking!

I think this is the only book I'm currently looking for!
I just had three others solved.
Hooray for goodread readers!

[Michele]

I am so, so, so hoping that someone will solve this, and I'm glad you keep coming back to bump it up. It just sounds so excellent.

You are sure it was a book, not a short story, right?

[Charlene]

I'm sorry I can't help with that particular book, but you might want to read The Question by R. Breuer Stearns. It was an incredibly powerful book with a similar premise.

[Kate]

Michele, I am sure it was a book. It was probably around 200 or so pages. Funny how I can think of approximate pages, but not see the title...

Charlene, The Question does sound intriguing. I'm adding it to my To-Read list.

Thanks to both of you.

[Ayshe]

Problem Island by Francis Clement Kelley? I found these in Google Books for "Francis Clement Kelley & the American Catholic dream" by James P. Gaffey:

"In Problem Island, however, Kelley's imagination created a group of young children rescued from a city destroyed by an earthquake. Newly orphaned, they are they are taken to an island in the Pacific by a hard-working western miner, who is convinced that his wards would, through sheer logic, arrive at the existence of a creative and watchful Providence. On this isolated paradise, they are given tutors who provide a full curriculum except religion, until, twenty years later, the miner's son and a commission of five experts return to evaluate the results.(view spoiler)[ In the course of the inspection, it is shown that the children have arrived through unaided reason at the Catholic doctrines of the existence of God, the... (hide spoiler)]"
"...years at Extension.66 Furthermore, as he composed, he tried to dilute the personalities of the young people by naming them in pairs according to Latin numbers, from "Primus" and "Prima" to "Decimus" and "Decima." A few of them, however,"...

[Michele]

That sounds like a VERY close match! I certainly want to read it now.

Weirdly, there appear to be two books with identical titles and near-identical author names. The one by Kelly without the E (linked above) appears to be a treatise on fishing the Scottish lochs.

The one by Kelley with an E is the one we want. I don't see it on Goodreads but it looks like this.

[Greg]

The correct version by Kelley with an E, is available at the Internet Archive in several ebook formats. It lists the author in the discription as Kelly with no E, but the book is the one from 1937 by Kelley with an E. It does sound like it may be an interesting book. Here is a link.

https://archive.org/details/problemis...

[Ayshe]

Ah, I had missed the second "e" in Kelley, (worldcat.org also has records for both variants:
http://www.worldcat.org/title/problem...
http://www.worldcat.org/title/problem... ). I corrected the links now.

[Michele]

Greg wrote: "The correct version by Kelley with an E, is available at the Internet Archive in several ebook formats. It lists the author in the discription as Kelly with no E, but the book is the one from 1937 ..."

Excellent!! I check gutenberg.org and it wasn't there, glad to know it is available at IA.

[Kate]

Wow! Ayshe and the rest of you, I think this has to be the book. The title doesn't resonate with me, nor do I remember that one of the runners of the experiment was a miner. But the rest of it is exactly what I remember. Thank you so much!
This took four years to solve!

Solved: Problem Island by Francis Clement Kelley

[Michele]

I scarpered off to abebooks and ordered a copy and it arrived today. Yeehah! Can't wait to get started :)