Web comic: book/NAB/delete?

[Iluzija]

From what I understand, this 'book' refers to a web comic: http://trippingoveryou.com/

Leave? NAB? or Delete?

[Banjomike]

I wouldn't delete it. It, and quite a few other WIP webcomics and fanfics have been added by the same librarian. She probably needs a message first otherwise she might just add them again.

[Iluzija]

Will do. Thank you :)

[LenaLena]

Iluzija said to you:
Hello, Marleen!

I am here to inform you that web comics, if not published as a book are not considered to be a book and as such do not belong on Goodreads pages.
I'm sorry for your trouble, because I am sure you just wanted to help, but I will have to ask you not to do it any more and remove what you can; leave a comment in the Librarians group for the ones you can not.

It is not my decision, although the initiative was mine, I consulted with a Super-Libraian, as you can se here:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
For any questions and/or comments, please write there.

Thank you for your time.


And my response, posted here as requested:
Hi Iluzija

Are you aware that there are thousands of books on goodreads that are not actual, paper, sold by an official publisher, books? Books and stories that have been posted online (sometimes for free, sometimes as a subscription, sometimes self published), fanfiction books and stories and the webcomics you are worried about. In a discussion I was a part of a few months ago, with a Goodreads moderator, it was stated that if it was put online, it was considered 'published' (this was in response to a fanfiction author who wanted her work removed, which goodreads did not want to do). Maybe ebooks aren't as widespread in Croatia as they are in the US, but here the fine line between published and unpublished is rapidly disappearing.

So, unless you can get Rivka or another goodreads moderator to tell me they need to be taken down, I am not going to. And I will add others as I see fit. Because I don't think the rules are as clear as you think they are.

Did you know that there are several goodreads groups devoted to these not-actual-books? Like this one: http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/7..., and this one: http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/6.... This one is devoted to a pair of authors who have only published their work online: http://www.goodreads.com/group/show/6... And those are just the ones I know about. Should they all disband?

I don't see why your opinion of what belongs on goodreads and what does not should deprive all the members of these groups of enjoying and discussing whatever books they want.

I'll post my answer in the Liberarian group too, as you requested.

[Banjomike]

Well, she is certainly right about some of these rules not being as clear as they might be.

However, the "Tripping Over You" item in your first post is not published in any format other than on a web page and is in a WIP (Work In Progress) which in any discussions I've seen on Goodreads have always been rejected as not allowed. The same seems to be generally true of fanfic on Goodreads. No Work In Progress, must be a finished product. Many of the others she has added just seem to be links to "page 1" on fanfic sites.

I would also think she is right about waiting for Rivka or aother employee to decide. Rivka will be along soon.

[LenaLena]

Iluzija said to you:
I am aware of all of the things you said, and the fact I am from Croatia doesn't make me any less informed about anything, thank you. My english might be crippled, but that doesn't mean I don't know what I'm saying.
I still disagree with your opinion, but would never act on it, that is why I asked how to solve this in the Librarian group. I will conform to what Superlibrarians and/or Moderators say. Thank you for posting your reply in the topic I told you about in last message. I hope this will continue only there, if it continues.

Have a nice life.

I never said you were less informed, I was just wondering if things might be different there, since over here they are very vague and confusing. Not better. And your English is fine too. It's not my first language either, and I never would, and never did, comment on the quality of your English.

Most webcomics (at least the ones I have added) are graphic novels that get self-published chapter by chapter eventually. Goodreads is full of graphic novels. In my opinion, having a goodreads listing for the ongoing story is no different than having several for the separate chapters, once they get published. I also don't see the point of waiting to create an entry until there is a paper copy, if the whole story is accessible by anyone with an internet connection.

Just my opinion, but unless someone with higher powers tells me I can't, I am going to stick with it.

[Paula]

Until rivka comes along, I think message 5 explains the current standing

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9...

Edit: In additon, Online fiction should be given a format of ebook not online fiction - complete and WIP fan fiction should not be on GR

[rivka, Former Moderator]

Indeed. In-progress webcomics are not books on GR.

[LenaLena]

So please help me make sense of this, because this is not very clear cut:

A) Girl Genius, Vol. 1: Agatha Heterodyne and the Beetleburg Clank, the webcomic, is a book on goodreads because the chapters are published in book form (one chapter per book, 96 pp), even though the story continues online as a WIP.

B) But we can't add comic book chapters as they are published, because they're just manga and comics, according to the thread linked above. When is a published chapter a book, and when is it not? Is it the weight of the cover paper? Is there a minimum page requirement? What is that requirement? Obviously the 29 pages of Minor Acts of Heroism do not count as a book, since it's been removed. How about the 40 page published chapters of Teahouse? Are they books? Or are they not? If there is a minimum page requirement, please let me, and everyone else, know what this arbitrary number between 29 and 96 is.

C) If 'online fiction' is the same as 'ebooks', then why is there a difference being made between 'online graphic novels' and 'graphic novels available as ebooks'. If it doesn't matter whether a book is downloadable (ebook) or not (online fiction) the distinction should not be made for graphic novels either.

Paula: It will please you to hear I have stopped adding fanfiction to goodreads, because of some authors' objections to it. Not because I don't believe it doesn't belong on goodreads. I firmly believe it does. And as far as I have been following the discussion, there has not been a final decision on fanfiction, like you're implying. What I've seen in that thread you linked is a lot of people complaining that fanfiction should not be listed, but not that anybody with authority said we can't. I've recently been listing the fanfiction as links in a group thread, instead, because I still feel a need to share it with my friends.

Because, IMHO, goodreads is a forum for its members, not just a book promotion vehicle. If a group of your members want to talk about and recommend works like webcomics, WIPS and/or fanfiction I truly, truly do not understand how listing these works is hurting anyone or anything. It does not in any way, shape or form, affect the enjoyment of 'regular' books by other members.

[Cait]

Marleen, it's not a question of length; the issue is how the material is published. An ebook is published as a book, whole in itself. A serial (whether comics or prose or anything else) is not. Were a webcomic to be republished online as a single book (or as multiple books) this would be just as valid as republication in print form. However, an ongoing webcomic has not been published as a book, and therefore it's not something we want to add to a catalog of books. While people are certainly invited to talk about anything they please in groups for that purpose, the base of the website is the catalog of books.

[LenaLena]

So take, for instance, Daron's Guitar Chronicles. It is an ongoing serial (317 chapters and counting) here: http://daron.ceciliatan.com/. The first 200 chapters or so have been brought out in ebook form in 3 volumes (like here: http://www.amazon.com/Darons-Guitar-C...). The story goes on, and I assume there will be a volume 4 eventually. These first 3 ebooks are in the goodreads database, despite the fact that it is an ongoing serial.

Exact same story for Girl Genius, this one an ongoing serial webcomic, that has published previous chapters in paper format. Except more volumes have been published.

Now Minor Acts of Heroism. Ongoing serial webcomic. Three volumes published. On paper. Removed from the database.

Please tell me what the difference is if it isn't page count of the published works.

[Cait]

Marleen wrote: "These first 3 ebooks are in the goodreads database, despite the fact that it is an ongoing serial."

Yes, they have been published as books.

"Now Minor Acts of Heroism. Ongoing serial webcomic. Three volumes published. On paper. Removed from the database."

If published books were removed from the catalog, that was an error. I don't know the circumstances, but I suspect that either they were confused with a listing for the serial webcomic or they were mistaken for comic book issues. Individual comic book issues are also not cataloged as books on the grounds of being serials; comic books are only cataloged as books when they are republished as such. Even in that case, indy comics publications should generally be given the benefit of the book doubt and treated as books instead of comics issues. (For mainstream publications we can generally use the ISBN rule of thumb, which is that books have ISBNs and serials do not. Independent publishers don't always use ISBNs, though.)

[LenaLena]

So there is a large grey area there, where no one really knows what exactly the difference is between a comic book and a comic issue. Then maybe we shouldn't police so hard in this area.

[Cait]

Marleen wrote: "So there is a large grey area there, where no one really knows what exactly the difference is between a comic book and a comic issue. Then maybe we shouldn't police so hard in this area."

When in doubt, one can always ask in this group. This is where the policies are set, after all.