Twilight
discussion
Are people who dislike Twilight "obsessed" with Twilight?
Where are you getting that, Gerd? I've actually talked about how everyone dislikes some books (I did it somewhere on the first page) and what I think separates haters from "dislikers" as well as degrees of "haterhood". Don't misrepresent my views.
Angie wrote: "Alex wrote: "Angie wrote: "It has nothing to do with backtracking, Alex. I own that I made the comment, and based on your posts, I fully believe it. If I had to wager a guess, I would say it's fact..."No need. This is the internet. I have a sense of humour about it and myself. You're not obliged to think I'm amazing and I'm not offended that you don't like me and think I'm a narcissist. I was trying to make light of it and have a joke, not offend you further or worsen the situation.
Mickey wrote: "Where are you getting that, Gerd? I've actually talked about how everyone dislikes some books (I did it somewhere on the first page) and what I think separates haters from "dislikers" as well as de..."Me and Mickey actually had a bit of a convo about this somewhere around page 15 I think - she came up with a 'test' for haters where if you rated on it you were a hater, if you didn't you were neutral or a fan(Mickey feel free to correct me if I am wrong here but that is where I think we ended up?). The test comprised things like what would you say if something terrible happened to Myer and other similar topics which would... 'appeal' to the 'haters' and not to the neutral/dislikers/fans etc.
Carina wrote: "Me and Mickey actually had a bit of a convo about this somewhere around page 15 I think - she came up with a 'test' for haters where if you rated on it you were a hater, if you didn't you were neutral or a fan(Mickey feel free to correct me if I am wrong here but that is where I think we ended up?)."Some fine points in which you are mistaken: we weren't having a conversation. I made up the outlines of two hater tests and then you accused me of not making distinctions, saying that you wouldn't wish anything bad to happen to Meyer and accusing me of saying that all antis wished bad things to happen to Meyer. (At one point you claimed that there were no people who wished bad things to happen to Meyer, other people stepped in and corrected you.) The tests I made would never separate fans from haters. If you want a test like that, it would be something as simple as "Do you like Twilight?". It was a test that featured a spectrum or gradiation meant to show the range of reactions from indifference to raging hatred and rating them accordingly. Trolls would require a different test, although I think there is a lot of overlap.
What's interesting to me is how defensive the other side is. The idea that there are obsessive haters is a problem for some because a large part of their anti-Twilight identity comes from separating themselves from the idea of obsession. They are supposed to be the voices of reason and intelligence against the mindless horde of Twihards. This is the construct they build for themselves many times.
I think Jocelyn said something a few times to the effect that I acted like I wasn't glad when haters came in with their objections and that I acted as if I had a low opinion of their ultimate contribution to the conversation. I think it was something like, "Here comes another anti-Twilight idiot...". The truth is that I've seen enough of these conversations to be bored with the usual fan/hater interaction. I think many people are.
The problem lies in the fact that there isn't a tradition on this board of fan discussion or threads dealing with topics that would interest fans. Even if there are, they are changed over into typical conversations, which have ceased to be interesting (although maybe some newer fans might be interested in them still).
Mickey wrote: "Some fine points in which you are mistaken: we weren't having a conversation. I made up the outlines of two hater tests and then you accused me of not making distinctions, saying that you wouldn't wish anything bad to happen to Meyer and accusing me of saying that all antis wished bad things to happen to Meyer."Hey Mickey, why don't you stop being a dick for five minutes? Carina's comment to you just now was more than civil. You're the one who is always complaining about conversations being stifled, but your attitude is surely not helping any.
Well I guess the sheer number of "Are people who dislike twilight" and "Why do you hate twilight" or "Do you love twilight or not" and any variation thereof isn't isn't exactly bound to incite fan discussion, and they seldom allow for more than "Yay" or "Nay" as an answer. :D
I think Jocelyn said something a few times to the effect that I acted like I wasn't glad when haters came in with their objections and that I acted as if I had a low opinion of their ultimate contribution to the conversation. I think it was something like, "Here comes another anti-Twilight idiot...". The truth is that I've seen enough of these conversations to be bored with the usual fan/hater interaction. I think many people are.
No, I did not, Mickey. That's how I personally felt. It was not an implication, it was not an accusation, it was not a statement. It was just the kind of feeling I got from reading your posts. That's all.
And TBH Mickey, I hate to be rude...but if you're so bored with these conversations, then why don't you not participate in them? Are you trying to educate the rest of the world or something? Because the rest of here DO care about this conversation. I'm here because it entertains me, and some of the others here are probably too. And hopefully you will not take this as a personal attack because I don't mean it that way. Just a random thought I had.
(And I know you don't think that "sorry" or "forgive the intrusion" wipes the slate clean. The problem here, though, is that you act as if that's a fact, not an opinion, and that I don't give a fuck to your petty rules of etiquette, because I am under no obligation whatsoever to follow them.)
No, I did not, Mickey. That's how I personally felt. It was not an implication, it was not an accusation, it was not a statement. It was just the kind of feeling I got from reading your posts. That's all.
And TBH Mickey, I hate to be rude...but if you're so bored with these conversations, then why don't you not participate in them? Are you trying to educate the rest of the world or something? Because the rest of here DO care about this conversation. I'm here because it entertains me, and some of the others here are probably too. And hopefully you will not take this as a personal attack because I don't mean it that way. Just a random thought I had.
(And I know you don't think that "sorry" or "forgive the intrusion" wipes the slate clean. The problem here, though, is that you act as if that's a fact, not an opinion, and that I don't give a fuck to your petty rules of etiquette, because I am under no obligation whatsoever to follow them.)
Mickey wrote: "Some fine points in which you are mistaken: we weren't having a conversation."I was attempting to be civilised - to me anything taking place on these boards is a conversation but my most sincere and heartfelt apologies for once again mistaking your intent Mickey. As it wasn't the first I somehow doubt it will be the last.
I'd also like to point out you fail to respond to Gerds point and instead decide to attack me. Even though I was effectively agreeing with something you had said earlier on.
Mickey wrote: The idea that there are obsessive haters is a problem for some because a large part of their anti-Twilight identity comes from separating themselves from the idea of obsession.
I will clarify my numerous earlier points again, fair enough there are people who are obsessed with liking this book, fair enough there are people who are obsessed with disliking this book - there are people who are fanatical over how perfect and wonderful it is and there are people who are fanatical about their hatrid of it. That is all fine, that is life. The issue which I am noticing more and more on these boards (and not exclusive to Twilight) is that if you dislike something you are automatically lumped into hating it. I somehow doubt that the people who do that would find it fair for other to turn round and go you rated this book 5 starts you must be a rabid fangirl.
Anyway, last time I attempt to enter civilised discussion with you.
Gerd wrote: "Well I guess the sheer number of "Are people who dislike twilight" and "Why do you hate twilight" or "Do you love twilight or not" and any variation thereof isn't isn't exactly bound to incite fan discussion, and they seldom allow for more than "Yay" or "Nay" as an answer."This thread isn't about whether someone liked Twilight or what they found wrong with it, though. But we've had discussions about Bella's depression and critiques of Bella's thoughts concerning her new classmates. Are these topics that have never been explored before? I'd venture most people have seen several before. Why are we going over the same ground? Is it still enjoyable?
I think fans have grown to consider defending Twilight as some sort of duty. I think we've grown used to the idea that our job here is to respond to criticism. I can't tell you how many conversations I've seen where fans spend all sorts of time and energy with a hater going over plot points and pointing out problems with interpretations. Is this really satisfying to fans, though? Isn't there other conversations that are likely to be more interesting than the twentieth time of explaining why cliff jumping isn't suicide?
Mickey wrote: "What's interesting to me is how defensive the other side is. The idea that there are obsessive haters is a problem for some because a large part of their anti-Twilight identity comes from separating themselves from the idea of obsession. They are supposed to be the voices of reason and intelligence against the mindless horde of Twihards. This is the construct they build for themselves many times."
Okay I've been trying to avoid having a conversation with you, because the last times I tried it didn't work out so well. It appears that anyone who does not share your opinion is someone you find impossible to have a civil conversation with. But whatever.
The problem I have with this is that you're putting a label on people without personally knowing them.
You said: "The idea that there are obsessive haters is a problem for some because a large part of their anti-Twilight identity comes from separating themselves from the idea of obsession."
That's a huge, huge, huge assumption Mickey. Why? Because most of us don't give a damn to whether you or anyone else sees us as obsessive. I certainly don't, and I probably never will, because everyone has different standards to what's "obsessive" or not. I really don't care whether anyone sees me as obsessive. As long as I get what I want out of having a conversation (that is to say, newer perspectives and entertainment) I don't. Fucking. Care. Even if I make a fool of myself while I'm at it, even if I offend someone...in which case I'll apologize and move on. And I'm pretty sure there are some people who feel the same way, who don't care enough to try to "separate" themselves, as you put it.
They are supposed to be the voices of reason and intelligence against the mindless horde of Twihards.
That's so big an assumption I don't know where to start.
To assume that the other side thinks of your side as "mindless" is incredibly presumptuous, IMO. Maybe some of us don't care whether you see us as obsessive, but we're not so arrogant that we think all of you are crazy idiots. It's a book. It's stupid to think that someone's an idiot for liking a book, so of course most of us won't do that. We're supposed to be the "intelligent" ones, right? The way you say it makes it sound like we think of ourselves as trying to educate the rest of the world on the awfulness of Twilight. And while that might be true for some people, it's not true for all people.
Next time, I suggest you ask the other side for what they think and how they feel before throwing around assumptions like that left and right.
Okay I've been trying to avoid having a conversation with you, because the last times I tried it didn't work out so well. It appears that anyone who does not share your opinion is someone you find impossible to have a civil conversation with. But whatever.
The problem I have with this is that you're putting a label on people without personally knowing them.
You said: "The idea that there are obsessive haters is a problem for some because a large part of their anti-Twilight identity comes from separating themselves from the idea of obsession."
That's a huge, huge, huge assumption Mickey. Why? Because most of us don't give a damn to whether you or anyone else sees us as obsessive. I certainly don't, and I probably never will, because everyone has different standards to what's "obsessive" or not. I really don't care whether anyone sees me as obsessive. As long as I get what I want out of having a conversation (that is to say, newer perspectives and entertainment) I don't. Fucking. Care. Even if I make a fool of myself while I'm at it, even if I offend someone...in which case I'll apologize and move on. And I'm pretty sure there are some people who feel the same way, who don't care enough to try to "separate" themselves, as you put it.
They are supposed to be the voices of reason and intelligence against the mindless horde of Twihards.
That's so big an assumption I don't know where to start.
To assume that the other side thinks of your side as "mindless" is incredibly presumptuous, IMO. Maybe some of us don't care whether you see us as obsessive, but we're not so arrogant that we think all of you are crazy idiots. It's a book. It's stupid to think that someone's an idiot for liking a book, so of course most of us won't do that. We're supposed to be the "intelligent" ones, right? The way you say it makes it sound like we think of ourselves as trying to educate the rest of the world on the awfulness of Twilight. And while that might be true for some people, it's not true for all people.
Next time, I suggest you ask the other side for what they think and how they feel before throwing around assumptions like that left and right.
Carina wrote: "I'd also like to point out you fail to respond to Gerds point and instead decide to attack me."I responded to Gerd. And how was my correcting your point "attacking" you (particularly since you told me to correct you if you were wrong)? Are you disputing that you claimed that I was lumping everyone together? What exactly is your problem with my recollection of events?
Mickey wrote: "I think it's up to fans to change how things run on this board, because we are the ones getting the short end of the stick. The "how" is up for discussion."
Allow me to become a whiny bitch for the next few seconds....
OMG THE FANS ARE SUCH POOR PEOPLE AMIRITE???? THEY'RE LIKE SO PITIFUL....SO THEREFORE IT IS UP TO THEM TO RUN THIS DISCUSSION BECAUSE THESE AWFUL HATERS HAVE ABUSED THEM!!!!
Oh, please. Please please please. Don't play the "poor us" card, Mickey. That feels nothing short of arrogant and condescending. We're allowed to do whatever the we want. It is not up to you fans to run things, and never will be. If you're getting the short end of the stick, TOO FREAKING BAD. Don't act like since fans have been mistreated, it's up to them to be the boss of everything, because this is not true in any regard, and never will be. You have a perfect right to defend yourself, so why don't you use that right, instead of demanding some kind of Twilight-fans-get-to-be-the-boss thing?
Allow me to become a whiny bitch for the next few seconds....
OMG THE FANS ARE SUCH POOR PEOPLE AMIRITE???? THEY'RE LIKE SO PITIFUL....SO THEREFORE IT IS UP TO THEM TO RUN THIS DISCUSSION BECAUSE THESE AWFUL HATERS HAVE ABUSED THEM!!!!
Oh, please. Please please please. Don't play the "poor us" card, Mickey. That feels nothing short of arrogant and condescending. We're allowed to do whatever the we want. It is not up to you fans to run things, and never will be. If you're getting the short end of the stick, TOO FREAKING BAD. Don't act like since fans have been mistreated, it's up to them to be the boss of everything, because this is not true in any regard, and never will be. You have a perfect right to defend yourself, so why don't you use that right, instead of demanding some kind of Twilight-fans-get-to-be-the-boss thing?
I'm worried for the Twi-Neutrals. How are they ever gonna have their say? I think that their neutrality to Twilight leaves them discriminated against. They want so badly to hook up with other Twi-Neutrals and discuss how they like Twilight a bit, but not too much, and are always being forced down the road of fanship or hatred by one group or another. It's just not fair for them.
Jocelyn wrote: "Oh, please. Please please please. Don't play the "poor us" card, Mickey. That feels nothing short of arrogant and condescending. We're allowed to do whatever the we want. It is not up to you fans to run things, and never will be. If you're getting the short end of the stick, TOO FREAKING BAD. Don't act like since fans have been mistreated, it's up to them to be the boss of everything, because this is not true in any regard, and never will be. You have a perfect right to defend yourself, so why don't you use that right, instead of demanding some kind of Twilight-fans-get-to-be-the-boss thing?"If things aren't working around here for everyone, then it's up to the people it's not working for to change it. You're right, you can do whatever you like. Did you notice how I wasn't addressing you? This isn't a matter that you have any part in, although you are a good example of what's wrong. /end of addressing Jocelyn
Look at this thread. Does everyone recognize how it became ultimately "The Jocelyn Show"? I particularly liked the last exchange between Dorothy and Jocelyn about the portrayal of women. A couple of posters had spent all sorts of time pointing out to Jocelyn how her statement "the men are strong and the women are passive and weak" didn't match up with the events of the book. Dorothy, having been out of the loop for a few days, presented evidence to which Jocelyn responded with something dismissive like "You guys are probably right, but I still don't like the portrayal of women in Twilight".
I think fans need to stop the merry-go-round and think about whether this is what we want. Jocelyn is bored. That's why she's here, and every time she opens her mouth, she has people who are taking her through the books and responding to her seriously. We have pages and pages of responses devoted to Jocelyn's very generic objections to the book. There have been dozens and dozens of Jocelyns hanging around in the time I've been here. This is ultimately how a fan spends time on this board: responding to criticism. That can be interesting for a while, but as it starts repeating, it becomes less interesting.
When I first came across Twilight threads, I was shocked at how terrible they were. There were two regular posters who baited fans by saying things like they were retarded. Other fans just stood around, I suppose waiting for their turn. Fans were actually apologizing for liking Twilight. When people started defending Twilight, I felt it was a step in the right direction. I always took the view that my focus on defending Twilight had nothing to do with the haters I talked to, but it was a roundabout way to talk to fans and share ideas with them. This worked for a while, but then the topics started repeating and most fans had heard each other's interpretations. I started thinking about who were the most interesting people on the threads and why was I talking to this person instead? Or about this topic that I already discussed last week?
This isn't working anymore, but I don't think the solution is to leave, because I think that what I feel is widespread among the fans. I think fans would benefit from looking beyond defending Twilight. Our sole purpose here is not defense. People who are not fans should be big enough to recognize that not everything around here is going to revolve around them and their objections. There are other facets and conversations that are of interest to fans (such as what is your favorite thing about Twilight or are people who dislike Twilight obsessed?).
Mickey wrote: "Does everyone recognize how it became ultimately "The Jocelyn Show"?"No, I don't goddammit. This thread was about me. MEEEE! It became the Alex show. I'm the narcissist, not Jocelyn.
@ Mickey
....I'm just not going to say anything, besides that: if it has become my show, I don't really care, because I still got what I wanted out of the discussion: entertainment, and a broader perspective.
Really, Mickey, I think it's that we won't tolerate each other's differences in the thin line of "over the top" that we keep getting into this. And I'd like to point out that this discussion becoming the Jocelyn Show has no relevance whatsoever to anything.
....I'm just not going to say anything, besides that: if it has become my show, I don't really care, because I still got what I wanted out of the discussion: entertainment, and a broader perspective.
Really, Mickey, I think it's that we won't tolerate each other's differences in the thin line of "over the top" that we keep getting into this. And I'd like to point out that this discussion becoming the Jocelyn Show has no relevance whatsoever to anything.
Isairon Nymph wrote: "Most people who talk about Twi are people who hate it o.OThat's the same with anything though, i saw a vid the other day of Metalheads against JB fans, so what they like different music doesn't m..."
Hm. There are many different books and singers in the world, and one don't like most of them. For example, you might like 100 books and 100 bands, but there are milions of them that are just no good to you.
So, if you pick a random book, or a random piece of music, the chance is that most people in the world won't be fans of that book/music.
But, you may also see that most books or most music don't have haters :-))
There is something in some books (like Twilight) or some music (like Bieber) that is so annoying to some people that they need to come out and say it. :-))
I'm not sure what it is, but I think that it might be the fact that we feel that some books (or music, or whatever) get undeserved attention.
For example, I might dislike some XY book as much as I dislike Twilight, but I don't see that XY book in every media and all around me. So, I think that might add to my motivation to go online and say "Hey people, I've read this book, and it sucks!"
Other books I dislike, I mostly forget their names.
I would rather spend time talking about a book that I do like than repeatedly bashing one that I didn't. Even if most of that time is actually spent defending it to others.
Jocelyn wrote: "if it has become my show, I don't really care, because I still got what I wanted out of the discussion: entertainment, and a broader perspective... And I'd like to point out that this discussion becoming the Jocelyn Show has no relevance whatsoever to anything."This is a very self-centered view of things, which is fine, but what does your contentedness with the status quo supposed to mean for the rest of us? Because it's meeting your needs, everything is fine? It doesn't work that way.
It's not simply this thread or you that I'm talking about. You probably have not been here long enough to gain much perspective on the state of things or to realize the repetitiveness of hater comments and the lack of variety on these threads because of them.
Mocha Spresso wrote: "I would rather spend time talking about a book that I do like than repeatedly bashing one that I didn't. Even if most of that time is actually spent defending it to others."About what percentage would you say you spend on here defending them as opposed to just talking about them like a fan would? See, I think fans are being short-changed here, because all the threads end up being about defending Twilight and fan/hater interaction. This isn't something I've seen on threads for other books (although obviously, I could be wrong there, I don't read many YA books or very popular books).
Because it's meeting your needs, everything is fine? It doesn't work that way.
When the hell did I say that?
The reason I told you I didn't care is because you seem to have developed some kind of absurd idea that I DO care. It's what I interpreted from the fact you're going to such lengths to taunt, belittle, and mock me for something I don't consider to be unreasonable. Because I'd be interested to know: What on earth makes you think I DO care?
I understand that fans just want to discuss Twilight from a fan perspective. There's an easy solution. Just don't answer to anti-Twilighers. We can't bother you forever, can we? Just ignore us, find another fans, or group of fans, and discuss it. You're under no obligation from anyone else to defend it. If you're tired of defending it, then don't defend it. Antis can just make fools of themselves for eternity, if you want.
It's not simply this thread or you that I'm talking about. You probably have not been here long enough to gain much perspective on the state of things or to realize the repetitiveness of hater comments and the lack of variety on these threads because of them.
I think you're misunderstanding me. Or maybe I was unclear. I'm perfectly fine with you discussing hater obsessions. But I am not cool with you suggesting that we divide people based on their personal preferences over a fucking book. Do you know what kind of offense that can carry?
When the hell did I say that?
The reason I told you I didn't care is because you seem to have developed some kind of absurd idea that I DO care. It's what I interpreted from the fact you're going to such lengths to taunt, belittle, and mock me for something I don't consider to be unreasonable. Because I'd be interested to know: What on earth makes you think I DO care?
I understand that fans just want to discuss Twilight from a fan perspective. There's an easy solution. Just don't answer to anti-Twilighers. We can't bother you forever, can we? Just ignore us, find another fans, or group of fans, and discuss it. You're under no obligation from anyone else to defend it. If you're tired of defending it, then don't defend it. Antis can just make fools of themselves for eternity, if you want.
It's not simply this thread or you that I'm talking about. You probably have not been here long enough to gain much perspective on the state of things or to realize the repetitiveness of hater comments and the lack of variety on these threads because of them.
I think you're misunderstanding me. Or maybe I was unclear. I'm perfectly fine with you discussing hater obsessions. But I am not cool with you suggesting that we divide people based on their personal preferences over a fucking book. Do you know what kind of offense that can carry?
I have noticed that certain people, who shall remain nameless, hate on the people who dislike Twilight in a completely obsessive way. I'd even go so far as to say that I have seen their names many times in threads written against the book.They put on their armor of words and contradictions and delve into the battle of wits, hoping, no praying, that they can prove to us haters (because if we dislike the book we are absolutely haters, enter sarcasm) that the book is as wonderful as they believe it is. They mindlessly defend their love for the poor distressed damsel that is Twilight.
I'm pretty sure SM isn't crying over the people who dislike her book. In fact I'm betting she doesn't give a damn.
This isn't something I've seen on threads for other books (although obviously, I could be wrong there, I don't read many YA books or very popular books).
Yes, you are wrong in that statement...there's a lot of hate for Game of Thrones and Eragon, if I remember correctly. And Game of Thrones isn't even YA. There's also the Da Vinci Code, Fifty Shades of Grey, Carrier of the Mark, among others. So no, Twilight is not the special unique pitiful butterfly with a big anti-base.
Yes, you are wrong in that statement...there's a lot of hate for Game of Thrones and Eragon, if I remember correctly. And Game of Thrones isn't even YA. There's also the Da Vinci Code, Fifty Shades of Grey, Carrier of the Mark, among others. So no, Twilight is not the special unique pitiful butterfly with a big anti-base.
im a fan of twilight and im in my 40s, and at uni its hilarious listening to the boys diss twilight just to get a girls reaction. as the girls start to screech at the boys about how fantastic it is and how sexy the boys are and the fights over werewolves or vampire gangs, and all he while the smiles on the boys faces is pure pleasure.
Ashley wrote: "They put on their armor of words and contradictions and delve into the battle of wits, hoping, no praying, that they can prove to us haters (because if we dislike the book we are absolutely haters, enter sarcasm) that the book is as wonderful as they believe it is."I partially agree. I think fans have been too eager to defend Twilight. There's really no need. Let haters defend their views instead. Let haters try to convince fans that Twilight is as terrible as they harp about. Let them give examples from the book and defend their assertions.
There have been many haters asserting things about later books when they haven't read past Twilight. There was even one who had never read Twilight and when a fan used an example from the book, she told the fan not to do that, that she was just here for "the fun".
I don't agree that the purpose fans have had is really conversion, though. Based on results, that dream would've died fast. Speaking for myself, it was more of a duty and it was interesting to see other fan's perspectives. The haters themselves were interchangable. I think because so much attention is paid to the hater, there's an illusion that's it's about them but they all tend to blur together except for the really irritating ones. You'd be surprised at how unoriginal people of different nationalities, genders and ages can be.
Well I don't like Twilight, but it's entertaining. Which is why I'm going to the all day marathon!!:)It'll just be fun!
Jocelyn wrote: "Yes, you are wrong in that statement...there's a lot of hate for Game of Thrones and Eragon, if I remember correctly. And Game of Thrones isn't even YA. "I'm aware of a couple threads against eragon (though, of course, not as many as twilight), but I don't think I've come across any anti-GoT threads...which ones are you talking about?
ETA: actually, 50 shades hatred may be nearing twilight level.
Jocelyn wrote: "Yes, you are wrong in that statement...the..."Please, point me to the "Song of Ice and Fire" hate. I'd really like to see that. :-)
Mickey wrote: "I partially agree. I think fans have been too eager to defend Twilight. There's really no need. "I don't think that I would have become so embroiled in defending twilight if I hadn't been personally attacked in the beginning (like you mentioned, people calling us retards and such). when it's so personal, I have a really hard time not defending or pointing out that what someone said didn't even happen...I almost feel like if I give up I'm saying, "okay, you're right, I'm retarded and have never read a real book." but, I think I'll go look through some older threads and see if I can find a more positive one.
Kirby wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Yes, you are wrong in that statement...there's a lot of hate for Game of Thrones and Eragon, if I remember correctly. And Game of Thrones isn't even YA. "I'm aware of a couple thr..."
I think it's surpassed it!
Angie wrote: "I think it's surpassed it! "ah, that's actually probably true! I've been reading through some old twilight threads, and the 50 shades hate may even have surpassed the twilight hate in its prime (b/c I do think it's died down some- people aren't quite as hateful as they used to be).
Kirby wrote: "I don't think that I would have become so embroiled in defending twilight if I hadn't been personally attacked in the beginning (like you mentioned, people calling us retards and such). when it's so personal, I have a really hard time not defending or pointing out that what someone said didn't even happen...I almost feel like if I give up I'm saying, "okay, you're right, I'm retarded and have never read a real book." but, I think I'll go look through some older threads and see if I can find a more positive one."Attacking people for liking Twilight still goes on. There's a person on the thread "Is Stephenie a Bad Writer?" who posted "It's the same with SM fans. You guys don't really care for good writing, you just want vampire romances and some prince charming that you can dream of. And the fact that SM couldn't write well if it ment her life, that is not really your concern." This doesn't rise to the level of being called retarded, but it is insulting.
I think sometimes we're too nice. Do you remember on one of those threads where people's posts go up and down, there was a Czech woman who said the reason that she kept coming back to Twilight threads was that if you complained about other books, people eventually would ignore you and continue their conversations? I think a lot of times, we just get bored people because we're so ready to drop everything and pay attention to them.
Kirby wrote: "Angie wrote: "I think it's surpassed it! "ah, that's actually probably true! I've been reading through some old twilight threads, and the 50 shades hate may even have surpassed the twilight hate..."
E.L. James has the haters that think her writing is lousy, and a lot of people (including many Twilight fans) who don't like that she exploited SM's characters and published. That book is in for it. LOL
Mickey wrote: " I think a lot of times, we just get bored people because we're so ready to drop everything and pay attention to them. "LOL it took you a while, didn't it? :-))
@ Kirby and Zoran
I don't remember saying that there were threads devoted to A Song of Ice and Fire hate. Sorry if I implied that, but I didn't say that...at all.
Also, I'd like to ask something: Are you guys just talking about Goodreads, or the Internet in general?
Eh, whatever. I'm going to assume the Intenet in general, since you guys have expanded to the Reasoning With Vampires blog lady and stuff.
http://rantingatthestars.wordpress.co...
http://www.enworld.org/forum/tabletop...
http://ericholtgrefe.com/2012/03/15/g...
I hate to be rude, but why are you guys picking on one single book out of all the ones I listed? It's kinda irrelevant. It's a single tiny detail that doesn't really matter, and whether I prove that Martin has an anti-base or not does nothing to change the point, at all. Which is that Twilight is not the sole victimized poor little series on earth with a large anti-base. I'll concede that A Game of Thrones does not have as large an anti-base as Twilight, not nearly as big. Either way, whether I'm wrong or right about Game of Thrones having an anti-base has little to no relevance, so I have no idea why you're picking on it.
But Twilight is not the only series that has a large anti-base, and while I agree it's mean and rude for anti-Twilighters to insult fans, nothing about that is really going to change (until, maybe, the fame of Twilight dies out and the whole series becomes a thing of the past).
I have to ask another question: don't anti-Twilighters get mistreated as well? I can recall several times off the top of my head when I've been called a retard or an idiot because I didn't like Twilight. I remember a Twilight fan telling me to "get a life." I'm not implying that any of YOU guys did that to me...but it happens to both sides as well, not just one.
I don't remember saying that there were threads devoted to A Song of Ice and Fire hate. Sorry if I implied that, but I didn't say that...at all.
Also, I'd like to ask something: Are you guys just talking about Goodreads, or the Internet in general?
Eh, whatever. I'm going to assume the Intenet in general, since you guys have expanded to the Reasoning With Vampires blog lady and stuff.
http://rantingatthestars.wordpress.co...
http://www.enworld.org/forum/tabletop...
http://ericholtgrefe.com/2012/03/15/g...
I hate to be rude, but why are you guys picking on one single book out of all the ones I listed? It's kinda irrelevant. It's a single tiny detail that doesn't really matter, and whether I prove that Martin has an anti-base or not does nothing to change the point, at all. Which is that Twilight is not the sole victimized poor little series on earth with a large anti-base. I'll concede that A Game of Thrones does not have as large an anti-base as Twilight, not nearly as big. Either way, whether I'm wrong or right about Game of Thrones having an anti-base has little to no relevance, so I have no idea why you're picking on it.
But Twilight is not the only series that has a large anti-base, and while I agree it's mean and rude for anti-Twilighters to insult fans, nothing about that is really going to change (until, maybe, the fame of Twilight dies out and the whole series becomes a thing of the past).
I have to ask another question: don't anti-Twilighters get mistreated as well? I can recall several times off the top of my head when I've been called a retard or an idiot because I didn't like Twilight. I remember a Twilight fan telling me to "get a life." I'm not implying that any of YOU guys did that to me...but it happens to both sides as well, not just one.
Angie wrote: "E.L. James has the haters that think her writing is lousy, and a lot of people (including many Twilight fans) who don't like that she exploited SM's characters and published. That book is in for it. LOL"It seems to me that when I was younger, the hatred came from people who liked "high literature" looking down their noses at "popular literature". (I remember Stephen King getting a lot of flak.) Now it seems like within popular literature, there's a few books that are hated. I've always thought of the people who read popular literature but are rabid about hating Twilight as being a bit like Bob Ewell from To Kill a Mockingbird. Ewell was practically a social pariah, but he held tightly to the idea that he was better than black people.
Has anyone ever noticed that it's usually women's books about women main characters that are given such bad treatment?
I think fans have been too eager to defend Twilight. There's really no need. Let haters defend their views instead. Let haters try to convince fans that Twilight is as terrible as they harp about. Let them give examples from the book and defend their assertions.
Exactly Mickey. I'm glad you were able to grasp that. Twilight fans are under no obligation whatsoever to defend their views. /end addressing Mickey
And TBH...I have no idea why you guys keep going on and on and on about it. Though to be fair, this IS the discussion topic...but anyway, I know you sometimes feel compelled to defend your reviews because someone insulted you. The truth is though, that it's always going to happen, and it will never die out. Never. Someone will ALWAYS be there to hate you simply because of your personal preference over a book, and it's not just Twilight. Percy Jackson doesn't have a big anti-base, yet I've still been called an idiot because I'm a fan. See what I mean?
So my point is....sometimes, I think people have to just let it go. Bullying people based on their like/dislike of a book is unavoidable. It's always going to happen, and there's nothing anyone can do to change that. You don't have to defend your views, though of course you can if you want. I just don't think an insult to yourself should immediately make you feel compelled to defend your views. If I say so myself...if you defend your views, you're giving in to anti-Twilighters. It's what they want. Obviously most fans don't give a fuck to what anti-Twilighters want, so why are they? I'd be curious to know, if a fan could come up to me and explain. Forgive me if my question is "generic" but, like I said before, it's not like I'm forcing anyone to respond.
Exactly Mickey. I'm glad you were able to grasp that. Twilight fans are under no obligation whatsoever to defend their views. /end addressing Mickey
And TBH...I have no idea why you guys keep going on and on and on about it. Though to be fair, this IS the discussion topic...but anyway, I know you sometimes feel compelled to defend your reviews because someone insulted you. The truth is though, that it's always going to happen, and it will never die out. Never. Someone will ALWAYS be there to hate you simply because of your personal preference over a book, and it's not just Twilight. Percy Jackson doesn't have a big anti-base, yet I've still been called an idiot because I'm a fan. See what I mean?
So my point is....sometimes, I think people have to just let it go. Bullying people based on their like/dislike of a book is unavoidable. It's always going to happen, and there's nothing anyone can do to change that. You don't have to defend your views, though of course you can if you want. I just don't think an insult to yourself should immediately make you feel compelled to defend your views. If I say so myself...if you defend your views, you're giving in to anti-Twilighters. It's what they want. Obviously most fans don't give a fuck to what anti-Twilighters want, so why are they? I'd be curious to know, if a fan could come up to me and explain. Forgive me if my question is "generic" but, like I said before, it's not like I'm forcing anyone to respond.
Jocelyn wrote: "@ Kirby and ZoranI don't remember saying that there were threads devoted to A Song of Ice and Fire hate. Sorry if I implied that, but I didn't say that...at all.
Also, I'd like to ask something:..."
Please don't get me wrong, I've got stuck to the idea of ASOIAF (not)having haters, because it is important for my theory. :-))
You see, I have this theory about books with haters.
I believe that there are 2 requirements for a book to become hated:
1) it must be very popular
2) it must be badly written
And this theory claims that ASOIAF won't become much hated, because it is not badly written.
Zoran wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "@ Kirby and Zoran
I don't remember saying that there were threads devoted to A Song of Ice and Fire hate. Sorry if I implied that, but I didn't say that...at all.
Also, I'd like t..."
That's right, actually. People hate it because it's popular, and they hate it even more because they wonder how a badly written book can be popular.
I've met some people who do claim that ASOIAF is badly written. They say that Martin's writing style is pretentious, or that his sex scenes are too graphic, or that he cusses too much. They say that his plot is predictable and gory, that his pacing is too slow, and his characters one-dimensional. Bad writing is partly a matter of opinion, after all. Or some of them say 'I opened the first page and put the book down because it was so awful."
I don't remember saying that there were threads devoted to A Song of Ice and Fire hate. Sorry if I implied that, but I didn't say that...at all.
Also, I'd like t..."
That's right, actually. People hate it because it's popular, and they hate it even more because they wonder how a badly written book can be popular.
I've met some people who do claim that ASOIAF is badly written. They say that Martin's writing style is pretentious, or that his sex scenes are too graphic, or that he cusses too much. They say that his plot is predictable and gory, that his pacing is too slow, and his characters one-dimensional. Bad writing is partly a matter of opinion, after all. Or some of them say 'I opened the first page and put the book down because it was so awful."
Jocelyn wrote: "I've met some people who do claim that ASOIAF is badly written. They say that Martin's writing style is pretentious, or that his sex scenes are too graphic, or that he cusses too much. They say that his plot is predictable and gory, that his pacing is too slow, and his characters one-dimensional. Bad writing is partly a matter of opinion, after all."
Well, I never thought that someone might find killing a main character in first 100 pages of a first book "predictable", or that a book where every character might do something good or evil could be accused of one-dimensional characters, but I guess there are all kinds of people in the world.
Even those who think that a quality of writing can be mesured by number of curses. :-))
But I'm not talking about a small number of haters, I'm talking about books with large number of those, like Twilight or 50 Shades.
I think they say that Martin's characters are one-dimensional because they're all archetypes. I concede that they all are, but Martin has some serious talent with using those archetypes and still making his books feel original. If I remember, John H. Riskind of the Washington Post said that the book "suffers from one-dimensional characters and less than memorable imagery." Or something like that, I'm just recalling it off the top of my head.
Well, Stephen King's been criticized for cussing a lot in his books, too. And it's not ONLY the cussing, there's some other stuff they dislike too...like I said, they find the style to be pretentious and even confusing, or boring. Or something.
I don't think A Game of Thrones haters are big, but I don't think they're totally small either...at least from my own personal experience. So many of my friends hate the book with such a passion sometimes I wondered if I'm crazy or not. I would say 'hey, have you read A Game of Thrones..." Then...."ew, ew, I hate that book."
Well, Stephen King's been criticized for cussing a lot in his books, too. And it's not ONLY the cussing, there's some other stuff they dislike too...like I said, they find the style to be pretentious and even confusing, or boring. Or something.
I don't think A Game of Thrones haters are big, but I don't think they're totally small either...at least from my own personal experience. So many of my friends hate the book with such a passion sometimes I wondered if I'm crazy or not. I would say 'hey, have you read A Game of Thrones..." Then...."ew, ew, I hate that book."
Zoran wrote: "You see, I have this theory about books with haters.I believe that there are 2 requirements for a book to become hated:
1) it must be very popular
2) it must be badly written"
I hate to burst your bubble, Zoran, but all books have haters. All books have even high profile haters. Tolstoy hated Shakespeare. James hated Tolstoy. Twain hated Austen. Byatt hates Rowling. There is certainly never going to be a consensus on any book, no matter how it's written.
I think certain books go through phases in popularity. At the moment, a lot of readers hate The Great Gatsby and have also tried to change Romeo and Juliet beyond recognition.
Jocelyn wrote: "I don't remember saying that there were threads devoted to A Song of Ice and Fire hate. Sorry if I implied that, but I didn't say that...at all.Also, I'd like to ask something: Are you guys just talking about Goodreads, or the Internet in general?"
I thought it was pretty obvious that mickey was referring to threads on goodreads, so I assumed that that was what we were still talking about.
"I hate to be rude, but why are you guys picking on one single book out of all the ones I listed? It's kinda irrelevant."
I acknowledged that I've seen a couple anti-eragon threads. I don't know of any anti-da vinci code ones, but I'm sure they exist. we've already mentioned 50 shades, and I've never heard of the other one. but I am nearly positive that anti-GoT ones do not exist (or, at the least, are very very hard to find). and I just don't really understand how any of this is irrelevant to your argument, when it seemed to be your argument...were you not saying that twilight fans don't have to put up with shit talk any more than fans of other books? well, I am disputing that. aside from 50 shades, I do not believe that there is a single other series where EVERY thread on goodreads, no matter the topic, is inundated with people constantly popping up to comment on negatives or to insult the fans.
I believe that there's a difference between the existence of a few well-liked negative reviews of a book and the existence of very vocal and determined dissenters that prowl the discussions. please let me know the first time that you're discussing jon snow's parentage or something and someone bursts in to call you a "throne-tard," or says that you've obviously never read a real book, or that you apparently don't care about good writing, or that they were a better writer than GRRM when they were 10, or that his editor should be shot. I think that you might would find your discussion to be slightly hampered.
Kirby wrote: "aside from 50 shades, I do not believe that there is a single other series where EVERY thread on goodreads, no matter the topic, is inundated with people constantly popping up to comment on negatives or to insult the fans. I believe that there's a difference between the existence of a few well-liked negative reviews for a book and the existence of very vocal and determined dissenters that prowl the discussions."Exactly!
I thought it was pretty obvious that mickey was referring to threads on goodreads, so I assumed that that was what we were still talking about.
Eh, whatever. Now I know. I just thought that since you had extended the convo to the blog lady, I figured it included the Internet as well.
I acknowledged that I've seen a couple anti-eragon threads.
I didn't say otherwise...I simply wondered why you felt the need to ask me for something so tiny. Just out of curiosity, btw, I'm not implying that you're a jerk for asking that.
I don't know of any anti-da vinci code ones, but I'm sure they exist. we've already mentioned 50 shades, and I've never heard of the other one. but I am nearly positive that anti-GoT ones do not exist (or, at the least, are very very hard to find). and I just don't really understand how any of this is irrelevant to your argument, when it seemed to be your argument...
I meant that it seemed such a trivial and tiny detail to me, I was just curious as to what compelled you to ask. That's all. I did not mean to scold you or anything or say your question was stupid.
were you not saying that twilight fans don't have to put up with shit talk any more than fans of other books?
No, I did not say that at all. Maybe I was unclear...I didn't mention the level of hate, I only mentioned hate in general. That all books have haters. I didn't say that the level of hate Twilight fans put up with is the same level of hate other fans have to put up with. Only that there is hate.
well, I am disputing that. aside from 50 shades, I do not believe that there is a single other series where EVERY thread on goodreads, no matter the topic, is inundated with people constantly popping up to comment on negatives or to insult the fans.
I didn't say otherwise.
Eh, whatever. Now I know. I just thought that since you had extended the convo to the blog lady, I figured it included the Internet as well.
I acknowledged that I've seen a couple anti-eragon threads.
I didn't say otherwise...I simply wondered why you felt the need to ask me for something so tiny. Just out of curiosity, btw, I'm not implying that you're a jerk for asking that.
I don't know of any anti-da vinci code ones, but I'm sure they exist. we've already mentioned 50 shades, and I've never heard of the other one. but I am nearly positive that anti-GoT ones do not exist (or, at the least, are very very hard to find). and I just don't really understand how any of this is irrelevant to your argument, when it seemed to be your argument...
I meant that it seemed such a trivial and tiny detail to me, I was just curious as to what compelled you to ask. That's all. I did not mean to scold you or anything or say your question was stupid.
were you not saying that twilight fans don't have to put up with shit talk any more than fans of other books?
No, I did not say that at all. Maybe I was unclear...I didn't mention the level of hate, I only mentioned hate in general. That all books have haters. I didn't say that the level of hate Twilight fans put up with is the same level of hate other fans have to put up with. Only that there is hate.
well, I am disputing that. aside from 50 shades, I do not believe that there is a single other series where EVERY thread on goodreads, no matter the topic, is inundated with people constantly popping up to comment on negatives or to insult the fans.
I didn't say otherwise.
I agree Jocelyn, all books have haters. The amount usually has someting to do with popularity. The more known the book is the more haters it's going to attract, the same thing goes for the number of people that love it. I don't hate Twilight I just don't like certain aspects. Our reasons are our own, the same as it is for those that love it.
Ashley wrote: "I agree Jocelyn, all books have haters. The amount usually has someting to do with popularity. The more known the book is the more haters it's going to attract, the same thing goes for the number o..."
Yes, I do think popularity affects the number of haters it attracts...but not completely. Harry Potter has a bigger fandom than Twilight, but has a smaller anti-base. I think it also depends on how honestly something is portrayed. I've always thought of Twilight as very honest and vulnerable--it isn't really anything else besides Meyer's imagination. She doesn't hesitate to put her own personal elements into it, which leaves Twilight with a bigger space more open to attack, because the "bad" elements of it are sitting right in front of you, without any attempt by Meyer to dress it up as something else.
Yes, I do think popularity affects the number of haters it attracts...but not completely. Harry Potter has a bigger fandom than Twilight, but has a smaller anti-base. I think it also depends on how honestly something is portrayed. I've always thought of Twilight as very honest and vulnerable--it isn't really anything else besides Meyer's imagination. She doesn't hesitate to put her own personal elements into it, which leaves Twilight with a bigger space more open to attack, because the "bad" elements of it are sitting right in front of you, without any attempt by Meyer to dress it up as something else.
This has just turned in to a place for people to fight with each other and it's ridiculous this was a conversation about how haters are always complaining and being haters and are more obsessed then those who love it and are obsessed with it because they love it. Everyone needs to grow up and act like they have a life apart from siting behind a computer of some sort fighting with strangers over books. I mean seriously I love my books and can get in to some pretty heated discussions WITH MY FRIENDS not with STRANGERS that I've never meet and most of the time never spoken to.
I think the point was to point out that the haters of twilight talk about it more than the lovers of it which makes no sense. It might also be to show that those who say they hate don't always hate they just find problem with but most still like it. Is what I think was meant to come from this discussion but I don't really know I only looked at this the other day but as I read through it I realised that everyone had just started fighting with each other it was really annoying.
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Yes, I noticed in your former post the allusion you made to dislike twilight being equal to being a "hater" - I still don't share that view.