The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
Time Regained
Time Regained, vol. 7
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Through Sunday, 1 Dec.: Time Regained
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Proust cannot have been too upset with the Poem, given how he includes his "..comme raconte le charmant Morand, l'auteur délicieux de Clarisse...".. this sentence is completely unn..."Yes, but the poem is from 1915.
Kalliope wrote: "Yes, but the poem is from 1915. ."That is why I think Proust cannot have been too pleased. Even someone who chose to live the remainder of his life as an invalid, as a real-life tante Léonie, would have difficulty being reminded of exactly what he will look like when he is finally dead!
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Yes, but the poem is from 1915. ."That is why I think Proust cannot have been too pleased. Even someone who chose to live the remainder of his life as an invalid, as a real-life ..."
You are right.. look at this great article..
http://www.college-de-france.fr/media...
Proust made a pastiche of this Ode...!!!
Kalliope wrote: "You are right.. look at this great article..http://www.college-de-france.fr/media...
Proust made a pastiche of this Ode...!!! "
Interesting article - Morand seems to have had a very complicated relationship with Proust, an almost love/hate one.
And it seems to imply that the Ode was written in 1919 not 1915 which fits a little better with how Proust might have looked.
I loved this phrase of Proust's: l’Ode où vous m’avez jeté dans cet Enfer que Dante réservait à ses Ennemis
(the Ode where you cast me into that Hell which Dante reserved for his enemies)
And note this one - didn't we read a similar argument in Albertine Disparue?
Si vous avez lu dans la NRF les pages où je montre comment je me console un jour du départ de mes amis, mais que l’idée que je m’en consolerai est précisément ce qui m’attriste le plus, vous comprendrez mon état d’esprit quand je pense que bientôt je ne vous verrai plus, et qu’un jour viendra où un nouveau “moi” s’étant formé, vous ne me manquerez
(If you had read in the NRF the pages where I show how I console myself for the departure of my friends, but the idea that I will be consoled is what saddens me the most, you would understand my state of mind when I realise that soon I will no longer see you, and that a day will come when a new 'moi' having been formed, I won't miss you any more)
And this gem by Morand:
En 1921, je rapportai à Marcel Proust, d’une visite à l’Institut de Sexologie du docteur Magnus Hirschfeld de Berlin, un énorme précis sur l’inversion sexuelle, véritable manuel de quatre mille pages sur la pédérastie. Marcel Proust prit le bouquin, le soupesant, à la fois rieur et désolé. “C’est épouvantable, gémit-il, toute la poésie de la damnation disparaît. Le vice est devenu une science exacte
(In 1921, I brought back an enormous tome on sexual inversion from Doctor Magnus Hirschfield's Institute of Sexology in Berlin to Marcel Proust, a veritable manual of four thousand pages on the topic of pederasty. Marcel Proust took the book, weighed it in his hand, with both a mocking and a sad expression. "It is dreadfull," he moaned, "the poetry of the damned is at an end. Immoral behavious has become an exact science.")
(The translations are for Reem ;)
Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "I can well imagine that the meticulous work of pasting all those paperolles onto t..."The "paperolles" idea I think it was Celeste's."
Yes, Kalliope, you are spot-on.
From Carter's biography, which is always by my side:
"Among the extraordinary services Céleste rendered Proust, none is perhaps more noteworthy than one regarding his revisions and proofs. When he rang for her one day, she came to his room and found him beside himself with worry. When she inquired what was wrong, he said that he had filled all the margins of the exercise book, 'and I still have corrections to make and lots of things to add.' If he inserted extra pages, 'the printer will get them all mixed up and it won’t make sense. What on earth am I to do?'
Céleste, 'almost without thinking,' replied: 'If that's all, monsieur, there's no problem.' Proust was incredulous..."
And then Carter continues, describing how Céleste intuitively solved Proust's problem.
Marcel Proust: A Life, with a New Preface by the Author
books.google.com/books?isbn=0300195095
William C. Carter
Martin Wrote ...this section jumped out at me as well. ...In this they were ungrateful, for M. de Charlus was to some extent their poet, the man who had been able to extract from the world of fashion a sort of essential poetry, which had in it elements of history, of beauty, of the picturesque, of the comic, of frivolous elegance. But people in society, incapable of understanding this poetry, did not see that it existed in their own lives; they sought for it rather elsewhere, and placed on an infinitely higher peak than M. de Charlus men who were much stupider than him...
Along with its beauty, its play of knowing and unknowing of poetry under social eyes and being a reason for the Narrator to write--as we will see, I suspect and its reason for Proust turning his back on society, why I posted this was that, according to my earlier speculations, the Narrators (young and old) become more closely fused as this writing is near the moment they will become one, if you follow me. And the Narrators commingle with the author in his omniscience.
But the curious part of the passage for me is the last, "...men who were much stupider than him..." and this states that there were heralded men who were "stupider" than Charlus and implies that Charlus was "stupider" than the author.
Does an author ever create a character who is smarter than his creator?
Marcelita wrote: ".Yes, Kalliope, you are spot-on. From Carter's biography, which is always by my side:."
Earlier today, Marcelita, there was mention made of a tribute film about Celeste called La Part de Celeste. I think at the end of the year we will have to pay hommage to La Part de Kalliope in this year of reading Proust group!
She knows what to post in order to enrich this year for all of us.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "You are right.. look at this great article..http://www.college-de-france.fr/media...
Proust made a pastiche of this Ode...!!! "
Interesting article - Morand seems to have had a v..."
Yes, the year 1915 does not make sense. That was the date in the page where I found the Ode, and also in this one... But they had met recently... It would not have occurred to Morand to compose such a poem based on someone one has met a few months before..
http://mfrontere.blog.lemonde.fr/2008...
Morand himself may have created the confusion... When remembering one's past and trying to recover memories, some chronological variations may be created...
Now we get the worst trait in Morel so far...He starts his defamatory campaign against Charlus when he realizes that he is fundamentally a good natured person...
Aussi quand il cherchait par ses articles à le faire souffrir, dans sa pensée ce qu'il bafouait en lui ce n'était pas le vice c'était la vertu. p. 148.
The above post goes together with a Quiz question...Which is Charlus's most guarded secret?
il était toujours pour le faible?
Marcelita wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Reading that Mme de Villeparisis is now dead.."...especially knowing that he did not work with a word-processor and could not easily retrieve a..."
This is wonderful, Marcelita. "Un huis clos à trois" really describes it well.
Eugene wrote: "In this they were ungrateful, for M. de Charlus was to some extent their poet, the man who had been able to extract from the world of fashion a sort of essential poetry, which had in it elements of..."Yes, I noted this too.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "You are right.. look at this great article..http://www.college-de-france.fr/media...
Proust made a pastiche of this Ode...!!! "
Interesting article - Morand seems to have had a v..."
Very interesting article, Lioliope. '... comme laissé pour mort par des apaches." They certainly must have had a complex relationship.
Last night, I read the article that Fiofio posted on Morand. What a devastating portrait. It is hard sometimes to dissociate the art from the artist.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "I can well imagine that the meticulous work of pasting all those paperolles onto t..."The "paperolles" idea I think it was Celeste's."
Yes, Kalliope, you are s..."
I remember that passage so well, Marcelita and was struck by how terribly impractical Proust was, and found it so touching to see this uneducated young girl from her Lozère countryside rescue the literary giant. What a great moment. I remember also how in 'Proust connu et inconnu', GV tries to at least convince Proust to get a better lamp, but he can't bring himself to make the slightest change.
I noticed that Cottard also gets a second chance at 'being dead'.
Fionnuala wrote: "Marcelita wrote: ".Yes, Kalliope, you are spot-on. From Carter's biography, which is always by my side:."
Earlier today, Marcelita, there was mention made of a tribute film made about Celeste...
...we will have to pay hommage to La Part de Kalliope in this year of reading Proust group!."
OMGoodness...absolutely!
How lucky are we....to have had such a guru-moderator?
Marcelita wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Marcelita wrote: ".Yes, Kalliope, you are spot-on. From Carter's biography, which is always by my side:."
Earlier today, Marcelita, there was mention made of a tribute film made..."
Yes, and like Céleste, she should be made commandeur des Arts et des Lettres.
Jocelyne wrote: "Yes, and like Céleste, she should be made commandeur des Arts et des Lettres. ."Yes - and she would be in good company**
Back to Charlus.Like the Narrator who admitted that he couldn't quite follow him, I have a similar problem. I get what he's saying about Norpois though - because the Narrator made the same point in the Venice section, underlining how Norpois seeks to manipulate events, and avoid incorrect predictions, by using the conditional tense of the verb 'savoir' as a kind of future tense. I also understand why he queries this strategy when Norpois uses it for things which can't 'know'.
It was some of Charlus's refernces to the English and the Russians which I didn't understand...anyone?
Edit: I have moved on and Charlus is making very good sense...
Fionnuala wrote: "il était toujours pour le faible?"You are in the right direction...
.. quelles que eussent été ses (Morel's) relations exactes avec le Baron, Morel avait connu de lui (Charlus) ce qu'il cachait à tant de gens, sa profonde bonté.p. 147.
Morel had seen that quality that Charlus had kept hidden to so many people, his profound goodness...
I also laughed at Mme Verdurin when she refers to the times when Charlus was a guest at la Raspelière and that she now thinks that during that time he had been a spy for the Germans...Ça a quelque chose de "louche". Nous avions une propriété au fond d'une baie, sur un point très élevé. Il était sûrement chargé par les Allemands de préparer là une base pour leurs sous-marins.146.
First, La Raspelière did not belong to them but was rented from the Cambremer, and then.... very imaginative story of spies...
I was struck by the use of the expression "camp de concentration". I thought it became a coin term later on and wanted to know the origins... Used in page 146 of GF.From the Larousse we can learn that the expression was born during the Boer War (1899-1902).
http://www.larousse.fr/encyclopedie/d...
Kalliope wrote: "I was struck by the use of the expression "camp de concentration". I thought it became a coin term later on and wanted to know the origins... Used in page 146 of GF.From the Larousse we can lear..."
I too was very surprised. I thought it was a WWII expression. I wonder if Me Verdurin knew about the Boers.
Another interesting notion regarding Elstir and the death of M. Verdurin.Elstir has become more and more dependent on his "society" because if he first transformed them from being his models into works of art (..lui reliait -son oeuvre- superstitieusement à la société qui avait fourni see modèles), it was this society also who became his public and spectators (lui avait donné son public, ses spectateurs).
.. and so with M. Verdurin's death, Elstir finds that the mind, the eyes which had had the best understanding of his work had disappeared..
(il voyait disparaître les yeux, le cerveau, qui avaient eu de sa peinture la vision la plus juste)...p.151.
Issues of Art, Posterity, Immortality......
And isn't it uncanny, that we, readers in this group, form a readership that Proust had not imagined and that others will succeed us...
He does not have to share Elstir's fear.
On patriotism: In such circumstances we pity more readily those whom we do not know, whom we merely imagine, than those who are near us in the vulgarity of daily life, unless—once again—we ourselves altogether are the latter and form but one flesh with them, since patriotism accomplishes the miracle that we are "for" our country as in a quarrel between lovers we are "for" our self. ML p. 124
In these quarrels of individuals, the surest way of being convinced of the excellence of the cause of one party or the other is actually to be that party: a spectator will never to the same extent give his unqualified approval. ML p. 121
After the Dreyfus case, and because of it, Proust was a spectator.
There is a fascinating section in which Proust has used a sequence of imagery borrowed from the various Sciences. First it is Biology (cells which form bodies - shall return to this), then it is Geology (oceans, glaciers..) and then Physics with Astronomy (the sun and the cosmic threat - menaces cosmiques).
The last one takes him onto an apocalyptic scenario which links this passage with the one on the skies and planes and the Walkyira which he had described to form the font apocalypse p.135.
In the Biology section he says that Nations behave similarly to the way humans do, since they are composed of the latter, and then adds that he who has (at the beginning uses the third person) the ability to analyze individuals will also be able to understand the behavior of Nations, given that the latter are just bodies resulting from the aggregation of constituent cells. The individual cells are the human individuals. And though he starts with the third person, he then switches and moves to the first person, and thereby places himself in the position of being capable of understanding Nations because he is after all maître de la psychology des individus.
And given that Nations are like individual humans (..les grands ensembles d'individus appelés Nations se comportment eux-mêmes dans une certaine mesure comme des individus), he concludes that Nations are alos governed by passion.
This section is in pages 152-155 of GF.
And in a subtle way, the Narrator admits his siding with France.First he makes a judgment and establishing Germany on the "wrong" (Germany is on the wrong even if it thinks it is on the right -- Celle qui a tort croit cependant avoir raison-- comme l'Allemagne), while the one who is right (implying France) argues his/her position using passion.
And then the Narrator admits that had he not felt patriotic (Si j'avais été moi-même dénué de patriotisme, but admits that he did because he felt like one of the cells that belonged to the body of France), he would not have judged the fight in the way in which he would probably have done in previous times (rich use of negatives and subjunctives here -- au lieu de me sentir une des cellules du corps France, il me semble que ma façon de juger la querelle n'eût pas été la même qu'elle eût pu être autrefois. p. 156.)
In previous times, when he believed things at first value, he would have believed what the German Emperor and the King of Bulgary were claiming. But having learnt. from his experiences with Albertine and Françoise, that people’s words do not correspond to their thinking (Albertine, Françoise) now means that the passionate side in himself prevents him from achieving the detachment that he observes in Charlus.
His passion takes over his reason, as it has happened to France.
Patricia wrote: "this beauty is just TOO-MUCHthe real Tasonville
http://www.galorbe.com/Categorie/Des-..."
Great link, Patricia. It brings back lovely memories.
@Kalliope, Interesting observation about the imagery being borrowed from three different sciences.
In reading the article you posted yesterday about P. Morand et la Princesse Soutzo, in Proust's letter to the Princess upon Morand's departure for Rome, he uses almost literally the same language as the one he used after Albertine's death, saying that he grieved his departure but grieved even more the fact that he would forget him "je tiens a mes peines et l'idée de savoir qu'elles ne dureront pas m'est odieuse...un jour viendra ou un nouveau "moi" s'étant formé, vous ne me manquerez pas."
Jocelyne wrote: ".In reading the article you posted yesterday about P. Morand et la Princesse Soutzo, in Proust's letter to the Princess upon Morand's departure for Rome, he uses almost literally the same language as the one he used after Albertine's death....."Yes, J, such a surprise to see that he trotted out this formula again to Morand - or had he first used it in Morand's letter and then reused it in Albertine Disparue?
See comment #55
Fionnuala wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: ".In reading the article you posted yesterday about P. Morand et la Princesse Soutzo, in Proust's letter to the Princess upon Morand's departure for Rome, he uses almost literally t..."Yes, interesting question. By the way, did I dream it, or did someone say that Proust wrote Le Temps retrouvé soon after Swann's way?
Jocelyne wrote: "Yes, interesting question. By the way, did I dream it, or did someone say that Proust wrote Le Temps retrouvé soon after Swann's way?"Yes, I thought I had understood that too - but I'm wondering if he didnt write it perhaps after Le Côté de Guermantes as it seems to pick up the story from where it left off in that book. I do feel that La Captive and Albertine Disparue might not have been part of the original plan, that they were a kind of diversion, to use one of Proust's military metaphors, and that Sodome et Gomorrhe might even belong with the diversion - although the story of Charlus and Morel, and the Verdurins in Normandy were developed in that volume and they are continued in this one...
Jocelyne wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: ".In reading the article you posted yesterday about P. Morand et la Princesse Soutzo, in Proust's letter to the Princess upon Morand's departure for Rome, he uses ..."My understanding is not that it was written "soon after" Swann's way, but in an ealier stage than certainly before the bulk of La prisonnière and Albertine Disparue.
The intro to AD says that the "brouillon" for Le Temps Retrouvé was written in 1911 (Cahier 57). My understanding is that the basic Cycle and structure was composed before the war, but he then added the Albertine section as well as some obvious other parts such as all the war contents.
Fionnuala wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "This week's reading mentions (obliquely) the English Blockade of Germany. This was considered scandalous at the time; the British Navy effectively stopped all imports (including ..."I have just read this section, and it is not clear for me either... Charlus seems to be presented also as an Anglophile, but then includes the sentence on the blockade on the Germans.
What does he mean by Charlus's "charlisme"?... Certainly the name Charles and all its variations are significant, but what meaning is he attaching to this charlisme?
I also get the feeling that many of the qualities of Charlus described in this section are Proust's own, such as his siding with the weaker ones, and his giving more weight to the "imagination" than to reality...on plaint plus ceux qu'on ne connaît pas, ceux qu'on imagine, que ceux qui sont près de nous dans la vulgarité de la vie quotidienne... p. 158.
Kalliope wrote: "The intro to AD says that the "brouillon" for Le Temps Retrouvé was written in 1911 (Cahier 57). My understanding is that the basic Cycle and structure was composed before the war, but he then added the Albertine section as well as some obvious other parts such as all the war contents. ."That early? How he held all the elements in his head throughout such a long period is really impressive. And I'm pleased to see that the Albertine section is in fact a kind of diversion. But I am glad he made that diversion..
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The intro to AD says that the "brouillon" for Le Temps Retrouvé was written in 1911 (Cahier 57). My understanding is that the basic Cycle and structure was composed before the war,..."This is exactly my question. How on earth could he keep all these elements, characters and permutations in his head? I should add, with only a couple of people dying and resurrecting.
I also laughed by his comment that the assassination of Rasputin/Raspoutin (December 1916) was an event that could have been taken out of Dostoievsky... which leads him to another wonderful section on the relationship between Life and Art or Literature... parce que la vie nous déçoit tellement que nous finissons par croire que la littérature n'a aucun rapport avec elle et que nous sommes stupéfaits de voir que les précieuses idées que les livres nous ont montré s'étalent, sans peur de s'abîmer, gratuitement, naturellement, en pleine vie quotidienne, et par example qu'un souper, un meurtre, événements russes, ont quelque chose de russe.. p 159-160.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The intro to AD says that the "brouillon" for Le Temps Retrouvé was written in 1911 (Cahier 57). My understanding is that the basic Cycle and structure was composed before the war,..."The intro of the GF edition of Albertine Disparue has a very good record of what each Cahier contained giving also the dates of the Cahier. Of course, it is a bit of a patchwork... So, some pieces would be from one Cahier and some from another one...
There will be more on the genesis of this volume in its intro, but I have not read it yet.
Jocelyne wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "The intro to AD says that the "brouillon" for Le Temps Retrouvé was written in 1911 (Cahier 57). My understanding is that the basic Cycle and structure was compos..."When he was laying the foundations he had in mind that the ribs would meet at the center of the vault. That meant that he was aware of how solid those foundations had to be...
Kalliope wrote: ".et par example qu'un souper, un meurtre, événements russes, ont quelque chose de russe.. .."Yes, I loved that - when I finally figured out what he was saying!
Joc., how did he manage without a computer? - ah, Celeste!
Still, it was a wonderful feat of paper and ink, bit more ink than paper at times...
I just found a reference to this..'Le Temps Retrouve' Eighty Years After/80 ANS Apres: Critical Essays / Essais Critiques. This Proustian is acquiring more and more stature.http://www.peterlang.com/index.cfm?ev...
Patricia wrote: "this beauty is just TOO-MUCHhttp://www.galorbe.com/Categorie/Des-..."
Thank you Patricia.. lovely photos....
Kalliope wrote: ".There will be more on the genesis of this volume in its intro, but I have not read it yet. "Me neither. I've reserved the intros for later - I love figuring it out as I go - even if I get it wrong half the time!!!
I need to think back on the cathedral image more often - the ribs meeting at the centre of the vault - perfect.
Fionnuala wrote: "I need to think back on the cathedral image more often - the ribs meeting at the centre of the vault - perfect. ..."
I think this was his view...
Fionnuala: My edition is numbered differently; but I think I know where you are " Elizabeth -page 159 GF - and I'm not sure what exactly Proust is saying here, via Charlus, about the English, Dostoyevsky and the Germans." First, the English: he feels that they act "the man of honor" to the max, yet forbid the entry of food and medicine into Germany. He seems to think that men with a bit of dishonor in their systems might be, paradoxically, trusted more to act in a consistent manner. The passage about Germans is weird, I'll admit. They were "too close" to him in--I guess appearance and blood--to appeal to him sexually, though he admired them for other reasons; he much preferred the exotic Moroccans or the lovely English (the Anglo-Saxons)--on the sexual level, that is. The Russian Communists realized they had to get rid of Rasputin; with his hypnotic powers, he could stop the hemophiliac tsarvitch's hemorages, and thus was more or less ruling Russia. The supper party at which they killed him was truly Dostoyevskian. They fed him poison and he asked for more. They shot him in the stomach and he kept talking to them; finally they bound his body and threw it into the Neva. When his body was recovered, his lungs were full of water, showing clearly that the poison, shooting (and I think they also tried stabbing him) were ineffectual. I think your knowledge about how Charlus' sexual proclivities had changed (or at least more information about them) as we read on. That might help explain some of the passage you've asked about.
Elizabeth wrote: ".The passage about Germans is weird, I'll admit. They were "too close" to him in--I guess appearance and blood--to appeal to him sexually, though he admired them for other reasons"Thank you for replying, Elizabrth - that helps a lot. In any case, Charlus' assessment of the state of Europe begins to make more sense as we read on - and, as Kalliope pointed out earlier, Proust uses Charlus as a cover for his own views here even while he has the Narrator appear perplexed by them from time to time. The 'charlisme' which Kalliope reffered to seems to be a way to describe Charlus' homosexuality as well as his germanophilia, according to the notes in GF page 480, note 45.
I have to quote this line where Charlus is bemoaning the loss of the statues at the Reims cathedral which have been destroyed. But that loss is not as great as the lack of young men to stare at in restaurants!
Est-ce qu'une ville qui n'aura plus de beaux hommes ne sera pas comme une ville dont toute la statuaire aurait été brisée?
And later the Narrator reminds him that lives are worth more than statues: Ne sacrifiez pas des hommes à des pierres dont la beauté vient justement d'avoir un moment fixé des vérités humaines
The Year of Reading Proust
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There is a sense that Morand is describing him as if he were already dead - the verb gésir - used to describe Proust lying on the bed evokes a dead body in a tomb and the mention of the beard still growing silently on his lower cheeks also reminds us of what happens after death. The face as if formed from softened wax recalls the making of a cast for a death mask. The room too, sealed up like a tomb and him never seeing the sun...