Through Sunday, 17 Mar.: Within a Budding Grove

[Kris]

This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 17 Mar. of Within a Budding Grove, to page 248 (to the paragraph beginning: “Granted that the intellectual distinction of a salon and its elegance...”)

[Kalliope]

I am enjoying the scene with Bergotte. This is a fascinating section on language, on writing and on creativity.

[Fionnuala]

This section with Bergotte motivated me to download a book by Anatole France called Les dieux ont soif, set in 1793 during the revolution.. I started it but can't quite see what is so special about the prose. So far, there has been a lot of dialogue and there's a character who likes to hum popular songs, a bit like the Narrator's grandfather used to do. The main character is an artist and there is mention made of many of the leading artists of the day. I can see how this art history element might have appealed to Proust however....

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "This section with Bergotte motivated me to download a book by Anatole France called Les dieux ont soif, set in 1793 during the revolution.. I started it but can't quite see what is so special about..."

I have read AF in my youth, but do not remember much. But recently read Le lys rouge, in preparation for Proust. I found many elements that were relevant for Proust, but, not having read Proust when I read Le Lys rouge, I could not evaluate his style, the actual language, as in any way proto-Proustian. And now that I am reading Proust I do not remember France's well enough. My idea is to read another work, such as Thaïs, later on.

But many of the themes in L'amour de Swann reminded me of Le lys, in particular the understanding of Love as Jealousy. Le Lys also has a pictorial aspect, and a concern for the "aesthetic" and the use of symbols is also there.

[Martin]

Jaye, I also enjoyed that passage. While Bergotte is not without foibles, this little statement is quite poignant.

He says later:

"He will find that you have a dilated stomach; he has no need to examine you for it, since he has it already in his eye."

A lot is said in this little line; more than what is on paper (or Kindle screen). The Narrator has his own pre-suppositions and ideas on Bergotte. He's fashioned in his mind a caricature of this man: And how the world changes when he meets Bergotte.

As Cottard can diagnose, because he has that diagnosis in mind, so too do we (and the characters of this novel) have our own established diagnoses.

[Fionnuala]

Ah, speaking of diagnoses, having fished this week's reading, I think I have come down with a case of Gilbertitis.
(view spoiler)[I found myself bridling with impatience throughout the section. By the end of it, if I had heard that the narrator had been written out of the book, I would have been very happy. There's a coldness about him I can no longer refuse to see. The disposal of tante Léonie's furniture was too much for me. Even though we were treated to her eccentricities in the Combray section, there was a certain affection in the Narrator's account of her. Now we see him giving her furniture to a brothel keeper and we imagine her distress. It was funny but in a cruel kind of way.
Added to that, I've just had enough of the Madame B's and the Madame C's and Madame V's, and whether they will attend each other's salons every week or only twice a month doesn't matter much to me. I know it is social satire but it makes me fidget. And how come Madame V is still setting up her salon nearly twenty years after we first heard of her salon?
Also, the convolutions of the Narrator's relationship are repetitive, not only within the section but also because of their parallel with Swann's situation earlier. I empathized with Swann, I don't with the Narrator. And it's all so claustrophobic, so inward-looking, it's as if I'm suffocating à l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs.
Is Proust doing this to me on purpose? Or is it just my quirky reaction to what is universally admired?
I'm eager to move on now, hoping the next section, and different characters, will reignite my enthusiasm. But I'll wait until next week to start and read something else in the meantime, some Bergotte perhaps. (hide spoiler)].

[Kalliope]

On la Berma and the Caryatids of the Erectheion and "la verticalité du bras"


and (with lost arms, sadly)

[Kalliope]

On Scarron and Louis XIV.

Paul Scarron, the ugly author of Le Roman Comique (which is a great very early novel), was the husband of the beautiful and very intelligent Françoise d'Aubigné, who later became Mme de Maintenon. She also became the lover, and eventually secret wife, of the King Louis XIV.

There is this wonderful wonderful book on her: L'Allée du roi. In English translation The King's Way


In this novel, it is mentioned that Racine dared mention Scarron to the King, the King kept silent, but next day Racine was out of favor in the court.

[Kalliope]

And on Mélusine and the comparison with Gilberte...

Quoted from the Wiki:

Marcel Proust's main character compares Gilberte to a Melusine in Within a Budding Grove. She is also compared on several occasions to the Duchesse de Guermantes who was (according to the Duc de Guermantes) directly descended from the Lusignan dynasty. In the Guermantes Way for example, the narrator observes that the Lusignan family "was fated to become extinct on the day when the fairy Melusine should disappear." (Volume II, Page 5, Vintage Edition.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melusine

[Fionnuala]

My notes said that in the version of the Mélusine story by Jean D'Arras, Mélusine received from her mother, Pressine who was a fairy, the gift of being able to change into a serpent ....every Saturday!

[Karen·]

Kalliope wrote: "I am enjoying the scene with Bergotte. This is a fascinating section on language, on writing and on creativity."

Phoooooaaaaaaaah!
I've read the bit about Bergotte's diction and way of expressing himself three times in two different languages and I give up for this evening.

[Kalliope]

Karen wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I am enjoying the scene with Bergotte. This is a fascinating section on language, on writing and on creativity."

Phoooooaaaaaaaah!
I've read the bit about Bergotte's diction and ..."

Try it in German..

[Karen·]

Kalliope wrote: "Try it in German.. "

That was one of the two languages!

[Kalliope]

Karen wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Try it in German.. "

That was one of the two languages!"

OMG, then, yes, go to bed.

[Fionnuala]

Maybe you've got Gilbertitis too, Karen. But the symptoms may not become fully developed until the end of the week... Or you might escape this virus!

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "Maybe you've got Gilbertitis too, Karen. But the symptoms may not become fully developed until the end of the week... Or you might escape this virus!"

I found the Bergotte section as an antidote to the Gilbertitis.

In one page of this section, the word "intelligence" is mentioned six times... Very peculiar. Trying to understand this, I miss the very concept that he so often mentions.

[Kalliope]

And "la dame en rose" is mentioned again, but it does not say explicitly whether she is Odette.

Although she is mentioned in the context of a discussion on Swann (his earlier offer to have the young -- Combray days-- Narrator over for dinner, and which the parents refused). So, may be, in an indirect way, the Narrator or Proust is signaling her as Odette.

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: "I found the Bergotte section as an antidote to the Gilbertitis."

Yes, and I'm taking a dose of A France for it too - I've started Le Lys Rouge on your recommendation.
But as you'll perhaps realise later, gilbertitis is not what it seems.

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I found the Bergotte section as an antidote to the Gilbertitis."

Yes, and I'm taking a dose of A France for it too - I've started Le Lys Rouge on your recommendation.
But as you'..."

Do not expect A LOT from Le Lys rouge, but it is worth reading, and some elements are also found in the Proust work.

I also want to read Paul Bourget, be he was more of a friend instead of a mentor. I have basically finished the Autour de Mme Swann section.. Will give myself a short break (one day or so) before beginning with the Balbec section.

[Fionnuala]

The Balbec section? I thought next weeks section started at "Bien que les mérites spirituels d'un salon..."

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "The Balbec section? I thought next weeks section started at "Bien que les mérites spirituels d'un salon...""

Yes, yes, it is just that I had to read ahead a bit because I may have some disruptions to my reading... It is the third part of the triptych. Actually, I think next week starts with that third panel already.

So, what do you mean by Gilbertitis not being what it seems?..

[Fionnuala]

I'm liking Le Lys Rouge already simply because there is more air on the page...Paul Bourget too, that might be an interesting track to follow....
(view spoiler)[I thought you might not have yet read my comment #7. I actually sympathise with Gilberte. What I meant was that, like Gilberte, I was finding the Narrator too much. (hide spoiler)]

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "I'm liking Le Lys Rouge already simply because there is more air on the page...Paul Bourget too, that might be an interesting track to follow....
[spoilers removed]"

Glad Le lys is proving to be a good break.

(view spoiler)[ Yes, I had read your comment, and I sort of agree. All this jealousy discussions I find a bit tiresome. My reaction to the Narrator is not very dissimilar to the one I felt for Proust when I read his bio. Irritating more at the beginning and eventually endearing.

I try to concentrate my interest on the abstract sections, and keep thinking that all this self-exploration will eventually lead somewhere.

I find the shift of attention from Gilberte to her mother peculiar. We see more of Odette than of Gilberte. (hide spoiler)]

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: " Glad Le lys is proving to be a good break.."

It is - I quite like the idea of a little trip to Italy. And I'm sure I will also enjoy the sea breezes and the fresh air when I get to 'Balbec.'

You are right of course re the Narrator's intense self-exploration. I do believe it will lead to something valuable in the end.
I think I'm probably here for the long haul....

By the way, in LLR, there's a character called Mme de Vresson who, in spite of being involved in scandalous affairs for more than twenty years, still looks like a young innocent. Is she a possible model for Odette de Crecy?
And the young writer Paul Vance? Sounds like Proust himself. And if France had caricatured him, it might explain the Narrator's eventual rejection of Bergotte.....LLR was written in 1894 when Proust was a young writer visiting the salons....

[Kalliope]

On "Rachel quand du Seigneur" -- in the episode in which the Narrator goes to a brothel and is offered Rachel, a supposedly Jewish prostitute. The Narrator always refers to Rachel with the full title from the Aria and the "patron" does not know what he is talking about...!

This is a reference to the Opera La Juive by Froméntal Halévy from the earlier nineteenth century. It deals with the love story between a Christian man and a Jewish woman.

And here is Roberto Alagna signing the Aria from the novel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zc03m...

[Manny]

Kalliope wrote: "And here is Roberto Alagna signing the Aria from the novel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zc03m..."

Thank you Kalliope, that was terrific! I have wondered innumerable times what it sounds like and somehow it never occurred to me to look it up.

This page has the lyrics, which I found helpful, and even offers you the possibility of downloading it as a ringtone.

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: "On "Rachel quand du Seigneur" -- in the episode in which the Narrator goes to a brothel and is offered Rachel, a supposedly Jewish prostitute. The Narrator always refers to Rachel with the full ti..."
Beautiful.
And this was also what the Narrator's grandfather used to hum whenever Bloch or any other Jewish friends would visit. So, as with Tante Léonie, the Narrator is making a link which wouldn't necessarily please his grandfather if he could have known of it.

[Kalliope]

@ Manny, this is hilarious... the Narrator himself should have downloaded the ringtone to his mobile had he had one (he would have loved mobile phones) and have it ring while visiting Rachel..

@Fionnuala - I had forgotten that the Grandfather hummed this melody when the boy's Jewish friends visited... Thank you for reminding us..

In this second volume I am liking all the references to scenes from the Combray section...

[Jocelyne]

Jaye wrote: ""Nine tenths of the ills from which intelligent people suffer spring from their intellect. hTey need at least a doctor who understands that disease. How do you expect Cottard to be able to treat yo..."

I loved this passage too!

[Jocelyne]

Fionnuala wrote: "Ah, speaking of diagnoses, having fished this week's reading, I think I have come down with a case of Gilbertitis.
I found myself bridling with impatience throughout the section. By the end of it,..."

I felt the same way as you did and found it a bit tedious, wondering if Proust's editor had been sleeping on the job, or if Proust purposely intended to mirror, in his formulation, the claustrophobic aspect of his ruminations during his severe case of gilbertitis.

[Martin]

Fionnuala wrote: ... or if Proust purposely intended to mirror, in his formulation, the claustrophobic aspect of his ruminations during his severe case of gilbertitis

I think it is more like this. It's like being beaten over the head a little, but the parallels to Swann and Odette are striking. Plus, the heavy-ness of the text really lets us see the weight of these emotions upon the Narrator.

[Jocelyne]

Indeed, Martin. We do feel the heavy-ness of it and it was most probably Proust's intent.

[Kalliope]

And now onto Odette saying to the Narrator:

"C'est très bien de venir voir Gilberte, mais j'aimerais aussi que vous veniez quelquefois pour moi, pas à mon Choufleury, où vous vous ennuierez parce que j'ai trop de monde".

This whole section strikes me because although the Narrator keeps saying how he loves Gilberte, as we get deeper into the story his attention becomes more and more devoted to Odette. What we get from Gilberte is that she shows indifference to him and this makes him suffer, but it is Odette, with her salons, her clothes, her flowers, her decoration, who comes to the fore in his account. The section is called Autour de Mme Swann anyway.

As for the Choufleury reference, it comes from another opera, Monsieur Choufleury restera chez lui, by Offenbach. In the story Choufleury has a party and musical soirée. Odette seems to be referring to her Salon as her Choufleury.

[Richard]

Kalliope wrote: "On "Rachel quand du Seigneur" -- in the episode in which the Narrator goes to a brothel and is offered Rachel, a supposedly Jewish prostitute. The Narrator always refers to Rachel with the full ti..."

I posted a link to a different version of the same aria, over in the Music topic.

[Kendra]

His sufferings and forbidding himself to see Gilberte seem quite apt to me, but painstakingly so. And everything, Swann's love and then the narrator's, somehow centers around Odette. Odette Odette Odette.

I find his characters very realistic but their various changes always have me a bit puzzled, like the transformation of Odette to Mme Swann. And she doesn't really captivate me. I still feel like, despite all the descriptions, I don't know who she is. Maybe I am failing as a reader, or the descriptions of her are so influenced by the narrator/Swann that it's not like I'd know her myself at all. Speaking of which, I liked the little passage of speaking and only our own ears really hearing it.

[Kalliope]

Richard wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On "Rachel quand du Seigneur" -- in the episode in which the Narrator goes to a brothel and is offered Rachel, a supposedly Jewish prostitute. The Narrator always refers to Rachel..."

Yes, thank you, Richard. And it is an acted version.

[Jocelyne]

William Herschel wrote: "His sufferings and forbidding himself to see Gilberte seem quite apt to me, but painstakingly so. And everything, Swann's love and then the narrator's, somehow centers around Odette. Odette Odette ..."

I feel as Jaye and William Hershel, but I wonder if it was not precisely the intent of the writer to make her appear somewhat artificial, lacking authenticity and therefore somewhat slippery.

[Amelia]

I too agree especially when you compare this to the depth of the earlier passages involving creativity and writing. The Narrator gave us an intriguing glimpse into his mandates for superb literary style. We then received an intimate vision of his emotions, his percetions of Bergotte and his longing for Gilberte. Yet as to Odette, unlike the first volume, I do feel she is somewhat one-dimensional here.

[Eugene]

Marcel Proust wrote: "Indeed, to love him too well, perhaps, Swann may have been thinking, for he acknowledged Gilberte's caress with a "Good girl!" in that tone, made tender by our apprehension, to which, when we think of the future, we are prompted by the too passionate affection of a creature who is destined to survive us." Moncrieff, (it's even better in the ML)

There are some lovely sentences in this week's reading that flow so easily from Proust himself or from the adult Narrator.

Going to the Met tomorrow to see again James Tissot's Circle of the Rue Royale which has Charles Haas (one of Swann's models) in a group portrait of members of the Jockey Club who according the the painting's caption paid 1000 francs to be included.

[Kalliope]

Eugene wrote: "Marcel Proust wrote: "Indeed, to love him too well, perhaps, Swann may have been thinking, for he acknowledged Gilberte's caress with a "Good girl!" in that tone, made tender by our apprehension, t..."

Is it part of the Met exhibit on Impressionism and Fashion?.. Lucky you.. I may have to go to Paris soon.. We have another exhibition here in Madrid with paintings from the Musée d'Orsay... which I visited already but should go back to.

[Eugene]

Kalliope wrote: Is it part of the Met exhibit..?

Yes, I stumbled on the Tissot painting of Haas last week, not knowing it was in the Impressionism, Fashion & Modernity exhibit, which I thought I'd quickly look at on the way of of the museum. Originally I'd gone to see French Paintings 1785-1850 from the Wheelock Whitney collection but I found an exhilaratingly good Bonnard from 1930 that showed me a compositional strategy to use in my photography...a double accidental but lucky find, the Tissot.

The Met is an incredible museum that rivals the Louvre or the Prado.

What struck me, seeing the painting in person, was that Charles Haas was a very formidable person.

[Kalliope]

Eugene wrote: "Kalliope wrote: Is it part of the Met exhibit..?

Yes, I stumbled on the Tissot painting of Haas last week, not knowing it was in the Impressionism, Fashion & Modernity exhibit, which I thought I'd..."

Interesting on the Bonnard.. I am thinking of getting hold of that catalog.

Yes, the Met is a great Museum. One of my favorites.

I am sending you a pretty good Virtual Visit to the Impressionist collection from the d'Orsay that is now in Madrid.. It may interest you.


http://www.exposicionesmapfrearte.com...

[Kalliope]

An important quote/passage from this week's reading:

D'ailleurs, comme notre mémoire ne nous présente pas d'habitude nos souvenirs dans leur suite chronologique, mais comme un reflet où l'ordre des parties est renversé, je me rappelai seulement beaucoup plus tarde que....

All our earlier posts trying to reconstruct a chronology that made sense to us but which eventually led us to conclude that it was not important. Or that what is important is that subjective chronology is different and "non verifiable". Here the Narrator states so himself.

[Kalliope]

Odette and her salon and the way she represents herself - like the ladies with famous Salons during The Enlightenment.

Like Lespinasse... Julie de Lespinasse (1732-1776)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_J...

or Mme du Deffand (1697-1780)

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_de...

[Kalliope]

And Odette described, in her somewhat out of fashion clothing, as a héroïne de roman as are only found in the novels by Henry Gréville.

Henry Gréville was the pen-name of Alice Marie Céleste Durand (née Fleury) and it seems she was a rather popular writer.

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Gr...

[Marcelita]

Eugene wrote: "Kalliope wrote: Is it part of the Met exhibit..?

Yes, I stumbled on the Tissot painting of Haas last week, not knowing it was in the Impressionism, Fashion & Modernity exhibit, which I thought I'd..."

I came away from the MET show thinking...stripes.

As you know I appreciate all the fashion references in the novel, so I was especially interested in seeing the gentlemen's hats.
Did you notice, both in the painting and in the exhibition, how they treated and carried their hats?
And what about Charles Haas' position in the painting? Let's discuss in The Lounge later.
http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/collecti...
http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/collecti...

[Marcelita]

Fashion in Madam Swann's salon.
"To change the conversation, Mme. Swann turned to Mme. Cottard: 'But you're looking very smart to-day. Redfern fecit?'"
http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/...

In 1888, Redfern became Dressmaker By Royal Appointment to Her Majesty the Queen and H.R.H. The Princess of Wales.

"'No, you know, I always swear by Rauthnitz. Besides, it's only an old thing I've had done up.' 'Not really! It's charming!'"
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/...

[Kalliope]

Pour les petits fours, pour toutes les friandises, je m'adresse souvent à Bourbonneux, says Mme Cotttard.

[Cassian]

I am reading this in the 4-volume Pléiade edition whose first volume contains all of Du côté de chez Swann and the first segment of A l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs -- it is, I think, the sections that Proust had originally thought would make up his first volume, although enlarged. As I have been nearing the end of this week's reading, I have been struck by the structure of the work, as I hold it in my hand in this single volume. Un Amour de Swann is quite noticeably the center of the volume. The first part features a country neighbor ringing a bell as he comes to visit in the evening and the last part features this captivating woman lounging in her Parisian winter garden. And, the first and last parts are roughly contemporaneous, aren't they? The third part follows the first by a small amount of time -- yet, they are worlds apart. And, I think this may be part of the wonders of this novel: we are immersed into such differing worlds which we then leave behind forever. Some of these worlds we realize are lost paradises.

[Jocelyne]

Very well put!