Through Sunday, 17 Mar.: Within a Budding Grove

[Kalliope]

Cassian wrote: "I am reading this in the 4-volume Pléiade edition whose first volume contains all of Du côté de chez Swann and the first segment of A l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs -- it is, I think, the sect..."

Cassian, what you say is very interesting. My edition is a paperback Gallimard with no intro and no notes.

Fionnuala is reading the edition edited by Milly and I will link to her comment on the sections and how, according to her notes, they were originally intended.

In last week's reading, comment #95

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

[J.A.]

@Kalliope, that's lovely!

[J.A.]

William Herschel wrote:
I find his characters very realistic but their various changes always have me a bit puzzled, like the transformation of Odette to Mme Swann. And she doesn't really captivate me. I still feel like, despite all the descriptions, I don't know who she is.

I felt that too and wonder if that's not Proust's point: that, in spite of what we think, people are not "knowable", because they're different depending on who they're with, different depending on their associations, their time in life (the Narrator pretty much says this himself). Different too in the eyes of various people. I found it interesting that the married Swann is interpreted very differently by the Narrator and Bergotte, who sees Swann still tormented by the "whore" he married.

[Kalliope]

J.A. wrote: "in spite of what we think, people are not "knowable", because they're different depending on who they're with, different depending on their associations, their time in life ..."

I agree with this..., J.A..

[Eugene]

The anguished young Narrator, in love with Gilberte who would rather go dancing than talk to him, whose snobbish hypocritical parents hold up the 'Saint-Beuveish' Norpois as a paragon of taste and intellect, who hears Bergotte refer to Odette as a "whore" after just having been feted by the same Odette who had been so fawning, pretentious & flattering over dinner and Swann, Swann who is depicted as an angel in this mix, but truly is in love with another woman, where is the poor boy to turn? What is he to believe?

He is like the reader, the reader on a winding road.

[Kalliope]

Eugene wrote: "The anguished young Narrator, in love with Gilberte who would rather go dancing than talk to him, whose snobbish hypocritical parents hold up the 'Saint-Beuveish' Norpois as a paragon of taste and ..."

Eugene, I agree with everything you say, except that I did not get the impression that he sees, nor wants to portray, his parents as "snobbish hypocritical". I see the young Narrator as baffled with the different opinions circulating around him and just realizing, for the moment, that everything is relative.

[Marcus]

I loved the description of Mme Verdurin "...muffled in her cloak with its grebe trimming, as fluffy as the white furs that carpeted the drawing room, embowered in which [she] was a drawing-room in herself."

[Eugene]

@Kalliope But Proust sees, the reader sees...also the boy doesn't know that Swann has a lover but Proust knows, the reader knows. It's about the writing, not about the character.

[Cassian]

I appreciate the links and the images that are included. These are all ways to expand my associations with the novel, its setting, its time period. Thank you, all who are contributing that way.

I have been thinking about some of the impatience expressed with Gilberte and Odette. I am aware that this whole work will take us into the orbits of a number of women. Because several readers have commented on how opaque Odette is (we really are not taken into her interior life or get much sense of her perspective), I am going to be alert to how opaque the other women are.

I have a suspicion that they will all be opaque, largely because the narrator is so singularly aware of his own awareness and the constructions of his own reflective process.

I am reminded of Alice Walker's praise of Flannery O'Connor for staying out of the minds and hearts of her black characters; Flannery was true to the limits of her own knowledge. Perhaps there is a similar element here in Proust. I am not sure, but I will be looking out for this as I continue.

[J.A.]

Cassian wrote: I am reading this in the 4-volume Pléiade edition whose first volume contains all of Du côté de chez Swann and the first segment of A l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs...

I think in another thread someone posted that the original editor insisted on putting the Gilberte section with A l'ombres des jeunes filles? I think that was a mistake. Proust's break, which Pleiade honors, makes much more sense. "The Narrator in Love" is just another turn of the magic lantern, so closely tied with "Swann in Love" that it seems odd to put the Gilberte section in volume 2.

[J.A.]

I love how "alive" plants are in the story thus far. That part about entering the room and being "left alone there in the company of orchids, roses and violets".
{Proust, Marcel. Within A Budding Grove (Kindle Locations 1727-1728)}
Although I have to admit that Odette's use of flowers leaves me a bit suffocated.

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

Eugene wrote: "He is like the reader, the reader on a winding road. "

I agree with you Eugene. I think Proust is testing how much as readers we are willing to accept of such boorish human behavior, which really applies just as much now as it did then.

[Eugene]

Marcel Proust Wrote: I tried even to be "objective" and, to that end, to bear in mind the disproportion that existed between the importance which Gilberte had in my eyes and that, not only which I had in hers, but which she herself had in the eyes of other people, a disproportion which, had I failed to remark it, might have caused me to mistake mere friendliness on her part for a passionate avowal, and a grotesque and debasing display on mine for the simple and amiable impulse that directs us towards a pretty face. ML p. 220

I've gotten Spring busy; I have 20 pages to read in the reading ending March 17th but there are some sentences here that please me, that I must pause over.

[Kalliope]

Marcus wrote: "I loved the description of Mme Verdurin "...muffled in her cloak with its grebe trimming, as fluffy as the white furs that carpeted the drawing room, embowered in which [she] was a drawing-room in ..."

My interpretation is that in this extract, the second word "salon" (drawing room) refers not so much to the actual room, but to the cultural institution that had become the "Salons" ever since, at least, the 17th century (Molière's Les précieuses ridicules), and which consisted on receiving friends on a given day (Odette's is on Wednesdays) to discuss literature, art etc..

So in my view, Mme Verdurin is shown as being herself this social grouping.

[Eugene]

Marcel Proust wrote: And in her heart of hearts she envied Mme. Verdurin (for all that she did not despair of having herself, in so eminent a school, succeeded in acquiring them) those arts to which the 'Mistress' attached such paramount importance, albeit they did but discriminate, between shades of the Non-existent, sculpture the void, and were, properly speaking, the Arts of Nonentity: to wit those, in the lady of a house, of knowing how to 'bring people together,' how to 'group,' to 'draw out,' to 'keep in the background,' to act as a 'connecting link.' Moncrieff

"...how to 'bring people together,' how to 'group,' to 'draw out,' to 'keep in the background,' to act as a 'connecting link.'" This could have been said by a gritty defensive coordinator, not only a "lady of the house", to line backers of the New York Giants about the next playoff game.

[Jocelyne]

I too love the links which definitely add a dimension to the reading. Almost like reading in 3D.

[[deleted user]]

Kalliope wrote: "And "la dame en rose" is mentioned again, but it does not say explicitly whether she is Odette.

Although she is mentioned in the context of a discussion on Swann (his earlier offer to have the y..."

I am finally caught enough to respond to this section. Sad, yes! The lady in pink being Odette very much confuses me. Unless someone who had knowledge of future volumes where this is revealed I am not ready to take this connection for granted. I think it makes sense with one exception in that why would the Narrator withold that information? I think he has pretty consistently let us know information that he at least already knows in that space in time as well as make allusions to the future that he already knows since he is telling this story from later in life. Clearly he is friends with Mme Swann at this point so why would he not share this connection with the reader?

[[deleted user]]

Many great comments here. There are so many passages in this section that I want to read over once I am done. One lasts for at least a page in what is the beginning of what I assume is being referred to as Gilberitis. I am thinking all of us have gone through some anguish in regards to what we at least thought was love and I have never seen it so perfectly captured. Clearly he was being rejected but he was still irrationally trying to figure out what he would do next in hopes to win back her favor. And how he changed his mind from one moment to the next.

But what really jumped out at me this section is the very abrupt section where Broche takes him to the house of assignation and then we are fast forwarding into the future where he seems to frequent the establishment enough so that he is giving them his inherited furniture. If I read correctly "it was about this time" meaning that he began to visit brothels during the time he was also visiting with Gilberte and her parents? How much later before he was selling off his inherited silver? I was very surprised that he chose that moment to divulge this information and Bloch had fairly well been out of the picture.

The other thing that hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet is when he discussed why he had to stop going to that house of assignation. He had this memory of fooling around with his female cousin on that furniture! Interesting that he had never mentioned any cousins before that I recall. And then it makes me wonder where in time that moment would have taken place.

[Marcelita]

Jeremy wrote: "Many great comments here. There are so many passages in this section that I want to read over once I am done. One lasts for at least a page in what is the beginning of what I assume is being refe..."

Jeremy, your "first-time reader" posts are such flashbacks! Please continue to share, and I will continue to remember my first ISOLT-trip, with all its hills, detours, turns, and round-a-abouts.
Suggestion? Don't take any short-cuts across the fields...and try to look for the answers to your questions now...for that may spoil the joy of reaching Marcel's "destination."

Have you ever traveled for hours and hours and finally arrived at the point where you could see the ocean for the very first time? Well, this is better.

[[deleted user]]

I agree! I love the twists and turns. I stated in my review of Volume I what I felt was the obvious. That this book is not about plot. And yet I am intrigued with what plot there is. And as I get deeper in I feel that the many human relationships are actually an undervalued part of plot. Not to us, of course!

By the way, I can get to the ocean in 45 minutes...but I didn't know that until I was 10. Can you believe it?!

[Marcelita]

Jeremy wrote: "I agree! I love the twists and turns. I stated in my review of Volume I what I felt was the obvious. That this book is not about plot. And yet I am intrigued with what plot there is. And as I ..."

Jeremy, I humbly admit that I didn't read your review; however, I totally understand not seeing the ocean until you were 10 years old. I have lived in Manhattan for five years and have never walked the streets of Brooklyn....maybe this spring. Why? Ah, that is my new focus in Proust....Habit.

[Jocelyne]

Jeremy wrote: "I agree! I love the twists and turns. I stated in my review of Volume I what I felt was the obvious. That this book is not about plot. And yet I am intrigued with what plot there is. And as I ..."

I remember your bemoaning the lack of plot in your review, Jeremy, but I must say that once we get used to Proust's rhythm we become more and more aware of the unfolding of the narrative, and actually I was surprised to see that at times, it can really turn into a page turner. I won't spoil anything for you, but I am sure that your desire for twists will be satified. One of them almost made me spill my tea! Happy reading.

[[deleted user]]

I surely hope that in my review that I did not imply I was upset about a lack of plot as I have been finding plenty of substance. I was only trying to make a point that some people are put off by that. And now reflecting on that comment from time to time I wonder if the plot is underestimated by those who aren't willing to read on.