Through Sunday, 20 Jan.: Swann's Way

[J.A.]

Aloha wrote: Ho, ho, ho, read on, read on.

Hmmm...was wondering if poor Swann was headed for a great fall...not the mother too! ;)

[Nick]

Everyone, J. A! Even Mme Sazerat's little dog!

[J.A.]

Not the little dog too!

[Richard]

Nick wrote: "Everyone, J. A! Even Mme Sazerat's little dog!"

I can just see it now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz50_M...

[J.A.]

I suppose this section of the book is very much a "Portrait of the Artist as a Young Boy". That early discovery of finding cruelty even in your father. That beautiful flowers have thorns and it isn't wise to embrace them. That you are not the center of the world and that the people around you have differing thoughts and emotions, a conscious world entirely separate from your own. That you yourself can cause great harm with horrible ramifications. That chickens have to be slaughtered before you can eat them. :)

[Nick]

That's a great way of putting it, for sure.

[Elizabeth]

Proustitute: I love your (I think it's your) term: hybrid. You're right on the money. That's a great term for his genre.

[Elizabeth]

It's all so good. I've been reading a great biography of Colette, who was a contemporary of Proust's. Altho her writing was totally different, she read every volumn of ISOLT eagerly as it came out, and I get of get the image of her saying-"Damn, I wish I could do that!"
And..this sounds really dumb...but exactly where are we supposed to be by now?

[Kalliope]

Elizabeth, can you please give us the link to Colette's bio?

[Nick]

I am pretty sure Proust corresponded with Colette too as friends. I seem to recall it from Carter's bio?

[Kalliope]

Yes, she is mentioned in Carter.

[Nick]

I gave my Carter back to the library today :( I think she probably said something like "I love your book!" or "well done on your Goncourt!".

[Aloha]

Elizabeth wrote: "It's all so good. I've been reading a great biography of Colette, who was a contemporary of Proust's. Altho her writing was totally different, she read every volumn of ISOLT eagerly as it came ou..."

We're on the Jan. 27 thread right now, but you can still have a discussion in the appropriate threads. Here's the reading schedule:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

[Elizabeth]

Kalliope...I have read a LOT of bios of Colette; but I think the most recent was: Creating Colette: Volume One: From Ingenue to Libertine 1875-1915. Volume Two: From Baroness to Woman of Letters 1912-1954. By Claude Francis and Fernande Gontier. However; I have this nagging feeling that I also read a one-volume one recently, too. I have this problem; it's called Too Many Books...But this two volume work is excellent; she wasnt exactly a close friend of Proust, but they ran with the same crowd, as it were. If I find the other one, I'll let you know.

[[deleted user]]

Richard wrote: "Okay, I've deleted the comment. "

In case this kind of scenario crops again, where one realises that one's own comment is a 'spoiler', an alternative to deleting the comment would be to edit it and enclose the offending passage (or the whole thing) in spoiler tags:

http://www.goodreads.com/blog/show/26...

That way, the flow of the conversation can be preserved.

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

(view spoiler)[ testing, testing, 123 (hide spoiler)]


Simple enough. Thanks Joshua:)

[[deleted user]]

On comparing the life of Proust to his writing:

On a personal level, I refuse to try to make any connections between his life and his writing. Sexual preference, history and so on. To the point that I kind of glaze over any post that is made in reference to this. I know that some are trying to find deeper meaning within the text as it relates and everyone has their own personal way of reading. But for me I know that a good author uses their life experiences but then the line is well blurred as some events are real but attributed to different people, some real life people are used but given different attributes, some portion of a real life event is used but then greatly exaggerated or parts of it completely fabricated. Some of my favorite authors (John Irving, Tim O'Brien) discuss this very subject within their fiction. I can even say from the writing I have done that I have taken bits and pieces of my experiences and blended them together. It is even admittedly done in memoirs. Ultimately, for me, it is about the experience of getting the authors views from what he has written on the paper.

[Aloha]

Jeremy wrote: "On comparing the life of Proust to his writing:

On a personal level, I refuse to try to make any connections between his life and his writing. Sexual preference, history and so on. To the point ..."

Proust would agree with you on this. There are some points, though, in which it is necessary to dig into the author's life or known point of view, such as the question as to whether Proust is sexist. It's helpful to know that such attitudes were predominantly aimed toward the males.

[[deleted user]]

But is it necessary? Let us suppose that the author is disgusted by sexism. So he embeds at least a piece of that into his young narrator and this is something that clearly evokes some thought as proved on this very thread. But whether or not the author is sexist or not does not change the reaction of the reader.

[Elizabeth]

A comment on French grammar. When the pianist's aunt is introduced, the narrator says she was afraid of making mistakes in grammar & so mumbled a lot. I think he's referring to the infamous French law of grammar which genderizes (is that a word?) nouns, plus ALL adjectives, articles, etc., that pertain to them.

Thus one wld call one's female cat "la chatte" and she cld also be one's "petite" (not petit), "belle" (not beau) chatte. You can see how confusing this wld be. I dont know how they do it, myself.

[Kalliope]

Elizabeth wrote: "A comment on French grammar. When the pianist's aunt is introduced, the narrator says she was afraid of making mistakes in grammar & so mumbled a lot. I think he's referring to the infamous Frenc..."

The use genders of words come quite naturally for native speakers of languages which have them. Children do not make mistakes on this aspect. There are other grammar issues which, however, are harder such as the conjugation of irregular verbs.

[Aloha]

Jeremy wrote: "But is it necessary? Let us suppose that the author is disgusted by sexism. So he embeds at least a piece of that into his young narrator and this is something that clearly evokes some thought as..."

In this case, I don't think Proust was making a statement about sexism. His statement was in the nature of desire, its up and down, its ethereal and damning nature. Does every related action have the same motive? No.

[Aloha]

Also, the reader brings a prejudice to every passage in the book. When such an interaction brings a misunderstanding, it is helpful to know some of the background.

[Aloha]

Elizabeth wrote: "A comment on French grammar. When the pianist's aunt is introduced, the narrator says she was afraid of making mistakes in grammar & so mumbled a lot. I think he's referring to the infamous Frenc..."

That is the most confusing part about learning French.

[Fionnuala]

Elizabeth wrote: "A comment on French grammar. When the pianist's aunt is introduced, the narrator says she was afraid of making mistakes in grammar & so mumbled a lot."
Isn't it interesting that in the same passage, two characters are introduced who have speech difficulties - and I know this topic belongs in the the Jan 27th discussion - but Elizabeth's comment has reminded me that the group of people Mme Verdurin gathers around her are incredibly odd! What was Proust trying to do here?

[Aloha]

Fionnuala wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "A comment on French grammar. When the pianist's aunt is introduced, the narrator says she was afraid of making mistakes in grammar & so mumbled a lot."
Isn't it interesting that ..."

I'm not sure, but I do know that he kept on reiterating that people ought to be loved for all their goodness and flaws.

[Aloha]

It's a seven volume lecture on unconditional love! :oD

[Richard]

Elizabeth wrote: "A comment on French grammar. When the pianist's aunt is introduced, the narrator says she was afraid of making mistakes in grammar & so mumbled a lot. I think he's referring to the infamous Frenc..."

French grammar can be difficult, but it is not the only language whose common nouns have genders. Latin and German have not only masculine and feminine, but also neuter. Even English has some of this: ships are referred to as "she," etc. When you are learning French nouns, there are some basic rules to help you decipher which are masculine and which are feminine (many feminine nouns end in e, for example). The difficulty comes in because there are always exceptions to the rule. So when you learn a noun, you learn what gender goes along with it.

I haven't quite reached that passage in the book yet, but I peeked ahead. It says that this character was not educated and so she was nervous in the presence of all these elegant (and presumably well educated) people. So the point is probably that this character is placed in an awkward social situation and her reaction is seen in her speech.

[Fionnuala]

Aloha wrote: "It's a seven volume lecture on unconditional love! :oD"

That's a great way to look at it, Aloha. And of course, the pianist's aunt and the gentle M Saniette allow Proust to show Swann being a true gentleman. But I was thinking more of Dr Cottard - he's really the one who is odd, and quite ridiculous in the Legrandin mode, and the Verdurins are equally bizarre. Surely these are caricatures?

[Kalliope]

Richard wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "A comment on French grammar. When the pianist's aunt is introduced, the narrator says she was afraid of making mistakes in grammar & so mumbled a lot. I think he's referring to ..."

Yes, for an uneducated but native person the genders of the nouns would not present a problem.

I am trying to find it online, and this time cannot, but I suggest people look at the chapter "Le Instant French" in Anglo Guide to Survival in Quebec

[[deleted user]]

Aloha wrote: "Also, the reader brings a prejudice to every passage in the book. When such an interaction brings a misunderstanding, it is helpful to know some of the background."

True. If the misunderstanding is a literal one and not of a subjective nature.

[Elizabeth]

Fionnuala...I think he's trying to say that the Verdurins, in their incredible eagerness to form a "salon" (and possibly a great fear of being alone), will pretty much take anyone. Proust wants to remind us that they are NOT of "le gratin." (aka "the bores" aka the French aristocracy). Also, remember, the pianist is said to be very talented, and maybe his aunt is part of getting him to play for them.

[Fionnuala]

Elizabeth wrote: "Fionnuala...I think he's trying to say that the Verdurins, in their incredible eagerness to form a "salon" (and possibly a great fear of being alone), will pretty much take anyone. Proust wants to..."

Thanks for responding on this question, Elizabeth. Little by little, I'm beginning to understand how all the pieces fit together....

[Martin]

Fionnuala wrote: Thanks for responding on this question, Elizabeth. Little by little, I'm beginning to understand how all the pieces fit together....



I may lurk more than I post, but I am reading these threads and it truly helps me understand this entire work. I am so thankful for this group and all the great minds within.

[Richard]

Martin wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: Thanks for responding on this question, Elizabeth. Little by little, I'm beginning to understand how all the pieces fit together....

I may lurk more than I post, but I am readi..."

We will make a wise man out of you yet, Martin! :)

[Marcelita]

Nick wrote: "I am pretty sure Proust corresponded with Colette too as friends. I seem to recall it from Carter's bio?"

There is account of Colette's description of Proust in Edmund White's "Marcel Proust: A Life." Here is an excerpt in a NYTimes article:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/w/...

[knig]

Nick, that is a great article. I'm not sure it portrays Colette as an ardent admirer, necessarily, although I'm sure she appreciated his writing. However, I've read Colette, and her syle couldn't be more different than Proust: its like chalk and cheese.I could more easily apreciate the reference to Genet's admiration, since I'd already spotted his 'emulation' in 'Our Lady of the Flowers'.

[Nick]

(The very lovely Marcelita posted that article about Colette, knig. Twas not I! :D)

[Ian]

Marcelita wrote: "There is account of Colette's description of Proust in Edmund White's "Marcel Proust: A Life." Here is an excerpt in a NYTimes article:"

I like Colette's description of Proust, even though it doesn't purport to be positive.

She describes him as a flatterer, but I wonder whether this term also encompasses the concept of a flirt.

Plus, "He gazed at me with caressing, long-lashed eyes...."

[Who could resist that?]

I don't know the French word that has been translated into "gaze" in this context, but "gaze" appears frequently in Lydia Davis' translation.

I wonder whether she had other translation options, and chose "gaze", conscious of its use by Lacan?

Did Proust and Lacan both use the same French word?

[Kalliope]

Ian wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "There is account of Colette's description of Proust in Edmund White's "Marcel Proust: A Life." Here is an excerpt in a NYTimes article:"

I like Colette's description of Proust, e..."

My guess is that both Lacan and Proust used the same word, "regard", which is a rather common word in French and is used both as a verb (look) and as a noun (gaze).

Because it figures so prominently in Lacan's translated writings we associate "gaze" with him and is therefore very tempting to see a direct link between Lacan and Proust through the use of this word.

Having said that, my impression is that Proust is a very visual writer and themes of light, reflections, eyes, looking, gaze, etc.. are constant preocupations in his novel (so far more so in the Combray section than in Swann's Love part). In an earlier post I wrote that I am tracking these themes.

But these were themes that had been intriguing the French avantagarde at large and for a while already before Proust and therefore also before Lacan.. So, my impression is that both the wtiter and the psychoanalyst are drinking from silmilar sources of thought.

[Marcelita]

Kalliope wrote: "Ian wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "There is account of Colette's description of Proust in Edmund White's "Marcel Proust: A Life." Here is an excerpt in a NYTimes article:"

I like Colette's description ..."

"...my impression is that Proust is a very visual writer."

Although some believe Proust was more of an auditory writer (crafting the novel less like cathedral and more like a symphony, with his own leitmotifs), I agree with you, based on this passage:

"Undoubtedly what is thus palpitating in the depths of my being must be the image, the visual memory which, being linked to that taste, has tried to follow it into my conscious mind." Overture

Not wanting to spoil anything...I will return later to another point.