Through Sunday, 3 Feb.: Swann's Way

[J.A.]

Marcelita wrote: Not unlike a "Pamela Digby Churchill Hayward Harriman" character

I keep thinking Pamela Harriman too. It'll be interesting to see how she grows as a courtesan/cocotte. At the moment, she's not very sophisticated.

[Marcelita]

Aloha wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "I see Odette as a "performance artist." She intuitively understands how to manipulate Madame Verdurin, Swann, Forcheville, and TBA/others into creating a transformative "lifestyle..."

Agree, she's bored and looking up to the next rung...Forcheville, with a title, who she may have met "...at dinner the night before and whom one had never heard until then...."

However, Odette understands it is to her advantage not to totally reject a man who is "constantly looking out for opportunities of claiming her attention in ways that would not be displeasing to her. If, in a florist's or a jeweler's window, a plant or an ornament caught his eye, he would at once think of sending them...."
...
"As in an earlier phrase, when he tested the reactions of chagrin on Odette's nature, he now sought by those of gratitude to elicit from her intimate scraps of feelings which she has not yet revealed to him."

Who knows what will become of Forcheville? And, her bills still need to be paid.
One grand Proustian stated that The Search is really a mystery; let's see if there are clues to which man-if any or another- Odette will choose.

[Aloha]

I'm sorry for messing this section up. I accidentally deleted a bookmark in my eBook last night, so some of my posts should have been in next week's. I deleted those posts from here. I hope it's not messing this area up too much.

[Marcelita]

Aloha wrote: "I'm sorry for messing this section up. I accidentally deleted a bookmark in my eBook last night, so some of my posts should have been in next week's. I deleted those posts from here. I hope it's..."

No one would ever fault a fellow Proustian, who is so stimulated and desires to share! It's rather like pouring Champagne...the bubbles are so effervescent, you find yourself smiling as they overflow the Baccarat.

[Kyle]

Aloha wrote: "I'm sorry for messing this section up. I accidentally deleted a bookmark in my eBook last night, so some of my posts should have been in next week's. I deleted those posts from here. I hope it's..."

Haha! I simply got worried for a moment that I hadn't paid sufficient attention and failed to pick up on some things during my read of the section; feelings of inadequacy are suppressed (for now:)).

[Aloha]

Kyle wrote: "Aloha wrote: "I'm sorry for messing this section up. I accidentally deleted a bookmark in my eBook last night, so some of my posts should have been in next week's. I deleted those posts from here..."

See how effective illusion is? :oD

[Aloha]

Eugene, I can't remember whether it's been mentioned before, but have you read the introduction to the LD translation? It gave an interesting discussion on how and why Proust form his sentences the way he does. It seems you're fluent in the French language, so you may be able to trace how he composes his sentences. I might trace the French myself, although it would be slower going for me.

[Ce Ce]

Whoa...I checked in to this discussion because I found myself in a state of rebellion over the Narrator's discussion of Swann & Odette's "love". I find my thoughts are very much along the same line as Madame X.

As already has been stated in so many postings perhaps the difficulty is the word "love" and its connotations. It's certainly not a mature love...but rather an infatuation...obsession & possession on Swann's part...fulfilling some need of his...seemingly complex & unconscious vs a conscious plotting & exploitation on Odette's part. I recognize the era and that the means for Odette to create a different existence was in Swann's hands...her power was in making that shift occur by playing him much more adroitly than her skill at the piano.

However my sense of disbelief stemmed from the sense that this passage seemed to be written by a mind without a knowledge or foundation of a depth of love...a feeling that is bigger than oneself, beyond oneself and not triggered by the various components the Narrator has ascribed to the choosing of a partner.

Part of me wonders if this is the difference in expectation, definition and perception of "love" in the past 100 years...and/or is this a topic the author speaks ABOUT without having grown to know, understand or embrace a mature love?

quoting various postings from Madame X...(I found myself nodding in complete agreement)

Message 119 - Madame X: ...I find the usage of the word "love" for what Swann & Odette feel for one another to be grotesque.

Message 154 - Madame X: ...the idea that it's "mature" to fall in love with a woman one doesn't like or esteem seems bizarre to me. The maturity is a symptom of age and experience, but requires no accumulated wisdom.

Message 157 – Madame X: He doesn't find her attractive. He thinks she's stupid. He thinks she has horrible, vulgar taste.

On page 239 of my LD hardback, on why one [Swann, in this case, but generalized] falls in love with one person instead of another: "It is not even necessary for us to have liked him better than anyone else up to then, or even as much." - Think about that. Or even as much. NOTE: THESE WORDS LEAPED OFF THE PAGE ...and SUMMED UP MY SENSE THAT SOME FOUNDATION OF KNOWLEDGE WAS MISSING.

Message 241: One of the reasons why every time I read the word "love" in regards to Swann's feelings for Odette I cringe. He would be better off buying a pet.

[Ian]

Re pets, I bought a book yesterday called The Book of the Courtesans". There are some great quotes.

Here is a quote from Mae West:

"Some of the wildest men make the best pets."

And Zsa Zsa Gabor:

"I'm a great housekeeper. Every time I leave a man, I keep his house.

[Ce Ce]

Ian wrote: "Re pets, I bought a book yesterday called The Book of the Courtesans". There are some great quotes.

Here is a quote from Mae West:

"Some of the wildest men make the best pets."

And Zsa Zsa Gabor..."

Thanks for a good laugh, Ian.

Of course then I begin to think that West and Gabor had status and money of their own which gave them some freedom...but there's also a recognition of truth in their cheeky quotes...which is why they were a bit shocking and humorous. Then a part of me asks...how much has truly changed?

Swann very likely would have been better off buying a pet; but Odette would not have bettered her station in life with the addition of a cat or dog. She had to land a legitimate position...and as I write this I realize there is an element of time involved. Her value as a courtesan would have diminished as she aged. She may not have been educated...but she was no fool. Swann was educated & privileged...and perhaps the fool when it came to "love".

In Odette's circumstances maybe it was true that it was not even necessary for her to have liked Swann better than anyone else up to then, or even as much.

Hard to take in...painful to acknowledge...but maybe true for many women...then and now.

[Ian]

I wonder if Odette was a wild woman who Swann tried and failed to make a pet?

[Eugene]

Fionnuala wrote:

His sentences are one of the things I admire most about Proust's writing and the more of them I read, the more I like them.

and

I am also interested in the descriptions, the plot, such as it is, and the psychology of the characters to a certain extent. I'm just reserved about questioning too closely the logic of their motivations...

In a workshop at the Poetry Project at St. Marks in NYC we were advised to "go with it" when we didn't understand what we read, to continue, in other words, to explore our 'negative capabilities' to borrow & bend words from John Keats--if I may.

Our desire as learning beings is to understand the unknown but there are things to understand by not understanding them too. Some of Swann's motivations are one, some of his actions are another; to question "the logic of their (character) motivations" is unavoidable but to find answers to all these questions is an exercise in hubris. What we don't understand about Proust, about his composition of Swann--what we can't make sense of--is, for me, what makes Proust & Swann great and memorable.

[Eugene]

Aloha wrote: ...the introduction to the LD translation? It gave an interesting discussion on how and why Proust form his sentences the way he does.

Lydia Davis in the introduction to her translation writes pleasingly & 'at length' about the Proustian sentence. It bears a rereading; she mentions Jean Milly and his La Phrase de Proust there.

[Aloha]

Eugene wrote: "Aloha wrote: ...the introduction to the LD translation? It gave an interesting discussion on how and why Proust form his sentences the way he does.

Lydia Davis in the introduction to her translati..."

I would also study the way he ties the novel together with themes such as light, desire, pleasure, colors, flowers, etc... It's brilliant how he does that. Look at next week on my post about light, Eugene. I'm amazed at how he's starting to repeat his themes and how he did it without it seeming forced or repetitive.

[Ce Ce]

Ian wrote: "I wonder if Odette was a wild woman who Swann tried and failed to make a pet?"

There was a passage where Swann was very nearly petting her on the head! ;-) However the wild woman Odette has pretty successfully gotten him to reshape his world while paying her bills and not altering much of anything of her own.

When I say I came across my first rebellion at Proust's words what I meant was that up until this section Swann's Way has enveloped me with a wonder at the integrity of knowledge of the universe described...a recognition of the truth of us as wonderful flawed creatures and the wealth of beauty in the minutiae of our world.

Then I began reading of this "love"...I was jolted out of that sense of recognition...of integrity...of truth. I draw...and it reminds me of learning to draw the human figure in life drawing. We are taught as we begin that all of our knowledge of the human body is so intimate and so ingrained from birth (when we begin to seek our mother or caregiver) that a viewer will immediately feel off balance...knowing something is awry even if they cannot identify exactly what it is that is not right.

That is exactly the sensation I experienced.

[Ian]

That is a totally appropriate response. I don't think there is any implication that Swann's love is a positive role model. It is one "way", " Swann's Way", and our privilege is to witness a forensic analysis of it in action, warts and all.

[Ce Ce]

Ian wrote: "That is a totally appropriate response. I don't think there is any implication that Swann's love is a positive role model. It is one "way", " Swann's Way", and our privilege is to witness a forensi..."

I was speaking more of the construct of the book...the author. There was some foundation or truth or integrity missing for me in the telling of Swann and Odette that jolted me out of belief in their experience. Since yesterday I've now read half of this NEXT week's (through February 10th) section and with the very first sentence of the next read (beginning with page 380 in ML) it rings true...sadly so, maniacally so...but wholly true.

[Aloha]

Marcelita wrote: "As requested...Odette's hairstyle.
Let's say Swann's love affair was around 1877-1878.
Mary Cassatt was painting, Sarah Bernhardt was acting…and the hair styles looked something like this:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-o..."

You've got me beat in this web surfing thingy!

[Kalliope]

Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I am very confused in this section about the times during which it is supposed to be happening. The narrator is telling us that all this (Swann's meeting Odette etc) happened befo..."

Marcelita, you are unique.

Marcel would be proud of you....!!!

Thank you...

[Kalliope]

Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I am very confused in this section about the times during which it is supposed to be happening. The narrator is telling us that all this (Swann's meeting Odette etc) happened befo..."

Marcelita. I think the links may not be working... Will try and find the pages nonetheless.

[Marcelita]

Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I am very confused in this section about the times during which it is supposed to be happening. The narrator is telling us that all this (Swann's meeting Odette ..."
Yep..direct links would help. (I will delete the other.)

As requested...Odette's hairstyle.
Let's say Swann's love affair was around 1877-1878.
Mary Cassatt was painting, Sarah Bernhardt was acting…and the hair styles looked something like this:

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-o...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sar...
http://www.musee-orsay.fr/en/collecti...
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1...
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldi...
http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldi...
http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/new...
http://media-cache-lt0.pinterest.com/...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/charmain...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/centrala...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1986-Actors-J...

Naturally, the pendulum swings and the next hairstyle is off the forehead.

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

Jeremy wrote: "I feel like a prude now!"

Sometimes, I feel like just shaking Jeremy and telling him to say what's on his mind without having to apologize for it first. Aloha, watch it with the spoilers. There, no harm done. ;)

[[deleted user]]

Shaken not stirred

[ReemK10 (Paper Pills)]

Jeremy wrote: "Shaken not stirred"

witty :)