The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
Swann’s Way
Swann's Way, vol. 1
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Through Sunday, 3 Feb.: Swann's Way
Madame X wrote: "It's the other little details that make me cringe - the way she calls a room "period" as though that means something, describes anything with wood paneling as "medieval", etc."I laughed at the wood paneling bit. I think I shall now call my grandmothers old station wagon "medieval."
Madame X wrote: "It's the other little details that make me cringe - the way she calls a room "period" as though that means something, describes anything with wood paneling as "medieval", etc. "Damn, I'm going to have to reread it now! Nowadays, she would call it "retro".
Kyle wrote: "I laughed at the wood paneling bit. I think I shall now call my grandmothers old station wagon "medieval."Ah, those medieval motor carriages.
What does her courtesanship say about her? That she didn't come from a wealthy family who could support her? That she was tantamount to a prostitute? That she was merely vile? I don't know and am reluctant to judge from this distance. ..."Agree.
Kyle wrote:I laughed at the wood paneling bit. I think I shall now call my grandmothers old station wagon "medieval."..."
Yes, I loved that too...!!!
Madame X wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "I would hardly make her out to be a hero for taking advantage of him instead of ending the relationship and moving on!"
I find Odette really vile, but men like Swann are her literal..."
I'm not sure if you were meaning to make me laugh, but I did!
I find Odette really vile, but men like Swann are her literal..."
I'm not sure if you were meaning to make me laugh, but I did!
Aloha wrote: "Jeremy wrote: "Madame X wrote: "Ian wrote: "I personally don't see Swann as not liking or esteeming Odette.
She simply doesn't fit his ideal "type", which forces him to struggle with and reconside..."
This is during the time when women do not have as much options for their own economic survival, so Odette doesn't have the luxury of taking the high road.
I suppose. And I'm not judging her character, I am just suggesting that they both have their faults in this relationship that at least for now appears to not be that of an ideal nature. I guess we'll have to see how things proceed.
She simply doesn't fit his ideal "type", which forces him to struggle with and reconside..."
This is during the time when women do not have as much options for their own economic survival, so Odette doesn't have the luxury of taking the high road.
I suppose. And I'm not judging her character, I am just suggesting that they both have their faults in this relationship that at least for now appears to not be that of an ideal nature. I guess we'll have to see how things proceed.
Haha. I shudder every time I see the word "ideal" anywhere near the word "relationship".
In the end, poor Swann was trapped by tea: This tea had indeed seemed to Swann, just as it seemed to her, something precious, and love is so far obliged to find some justification for itself, some guarantee of its duration in pleasures which, on the contrary, would have no existence apart from love and must cease with its passing, that when he left her, at seven o'clock, to go and dress for the evening, all the way home, sitting bolt upright in his brougham, unable to repress the happiness with which the afternoon's adventure had filled him, he kept on repeating to himself: "What fun it would be to have a little woman like that in a place where one could always be certain of finding, what one never can be certain of finding, a really good cup of tea." (Moncrieff trans.)You'd think he was English. Again, it's food that crystallizes longing for something too hard to capture.
Off topic, that happens all the time with espresso coffee, too.
Eugene wrote: "indeed there will be time" for each of us to answer these questions for ourselves, "to prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet". Smiles at Eugene chanelling T.S. Eliot.That was quite lovely.
Thank you Reem; I love Prufrock & I love the love song. Yesterday I asked a semi-rhetorical question about why we read Proust; for me, one of the answers of why I read him is found in the following fragment and what it points to in Swann as he searches for Odette in the cafes along the Boulevards:
"…: that is, to prolong for the moment and to renew for yet one more day the disappointment and torment that came to him from the pointless presence of this woman whom he saw so regularly without daring to take her in his arms." LD 237
Swann's indifference & his love; I marvel at the thesis & antithesis of how Proust composes Swann--at once, in a fragment, in a sentence, in several, in a passage, not one without the other. In a more common fictional lover (if there is such a thing) we might have indifference but it transcends into love for a hypotactic reason & we have motivation, we have change--character change--but this is Proust and here, in the carriage, Swann's indifference is part of his love, not one without the other.
Ian wrote: "It's bad enough that males are victim to them in their perspective on females, it's worse when females impose them on themselves and feel inferior for not meeting the requirements of the ideal version of themselves."
(view spoiler)
(view spoiler)
Anyone else intrigued that Proust has given Swann a military past? And does it mean he might have faught in the Franco-Prussian war or did he just do a period of 'service militaire'?
Fionnuala wrote: "Anyone else intrigued that Proust has given Swann a military past? And does it mean he might have caught in the Franco-Prussian war or did he just do a period of 'service militaire'?"Yes, these questions also take ut to how old do we think Swann is?
I thought it was made explicit in the text he is 50 or just over when he first meets Odette?
knig wrote: "I thought it was made explicit in the text he is 50 or just over when he first meets Odette?"Thank you. I got the impression he was middle aged, but cannot recall in what part of the text. If the plot is supposed to take place around 1880, then he would have been born around 1830 and therefore 40 during the Franco-Prussian war.
Fionnuala, was it with Forcheville with whom Swann coincided in the military, or is F. talking about Swann coinciding with someone else?
Wow! I did not pick up on him being 50. It makes perfect sense but I assumed he was much younger.
Eugene wrote: "Thank you Reem; I love Prufrock & I love the love song. Yesterday I asked a semi-rhetorical question about why we read Proust; for me, one of the answers of why I read him is found in the followi..."
Excellent comment, Eugene.
Fourcheville mentions a colleague from the army and thenadds that Swann was in the same regiment as this colleague, so he was also possibly in the same regiment as Foucheville? It's not clear.But if Swann is around fifty now, then he wpuld surely be too old in the Combray section and the narrator says he's a lot younger than his grandfather and he has a young daughter so he might be fifty then so thirty something now.
Fionnuala wrote: "But if Swann is around fifty now, then he wpuld surely be too old in the Combray section and the narrator says he's a lot younger than his grandfather and he has a young daughter so he might be fifty then so thirty something now. "Yes, that makes sense... Charles Swann is the son of the friend of the Grand Father and therefore about the same generation as the Narrator's father.
I may go back to the section when he meets Odette.
Proustitute wrote: "Partial inspiration for Odette (and because I like how we have images here, interspersed with our thoughts):."The famous quote of Proust discussing Racine's writing comes from a letter to this Mme Georges Bizet who later became Mme Straus and who held a Salon.
I thought she had been more the model for la Duchesse de Guermantes (although all characters are composites...!)
I found the reference, but i'm reading ibooks on my iphone, so can't give a page number. it follows quite soon after swann meets odette at the theatre and she is described as having eyes which are fine but so large they seem to be bending beneath their own weight. Quite soon after Swann's age is given as 50.
knig wrote: "I found the reference, but i'm reading ibooks on my iphone, so can't give a page number. it follows quite soon after swann meets odette at the theatre and she is described as having eyes which are ..."I have found the following phrase:"Mais à l'âge un peu désabusé dont approchait Swann, et où l'on sait se contenter d'être amoureux pour le plaisir de l'être..." which could be anything... I have not found anything more concrete.
OK, try this link, its at the bottom of page 251 on google bookshttp://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lv...
Oh, that's a typo! It should be "and so..."
Hah, OK. It made me chuckle, what an odd coincidence of a typo and a number making sense. Ah well, the mystery continues....
knig wrote: "OK, try this link, its at the bottom of page 251 on google bookshttp://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lv......"
What translation is this?. The original French, which comes a bit after the quote above in comment #191, does not mention 50. It says:
"Autrefois on rêvait de posséder le coeur de la femme dont on était amoureux; plus tard sentir qu'on possède le coeur d'une femme peut suffire à vous en rendre amoureux. Ainsi, à l'âge où il semblerait, comme on cherche surtout dans l'amour un plaisir subjectif..."
Bolds are mine.
I had read this also, but found even more vague than the sentence in #191..
The translator has added his interpretation.
Mine woul be Swann is in his 40s.
I also found two references to agewith regard to Swann but as Kalliope pointed out, they do not specify his age only that he was at an age when, etc.,...
I checked all three, the French, the LD, and the ML, and, as far as I can see, Swann's age is not specified. We can only guess from the descriptions of his experience with women (which is quite a bit) at the time he met Odette.
Not even forty, I think and not yet 50 in Combray. We know, don't we, that the narrator identifies himself with a later Swann - he says it at the beginning of Un Amour de Swann. And we know that Proust has some connection to the narrator(!) and that he died when he was, what 51? I don't see the narrator ever being old, although I don't know that, but I'm wondering how he could identify with a much older Swann....
The Narrator is recalling his memory at the age when he would have been the older Swann's age, so he would be able to identify with Swann in retrospect.
French men in those days were encouraged in their sexual prowess at a young age, even to the point where the father would introduce them to prostitutes as a rite of passage. It's conceivable that Swann was only in his 30's when he met Odette.
Fionnuala wrote: "Not even forty, I think and not yet 50 in Combray. We know, don't we, that the narrator identifies himself with a later Swann - he says it at the beginning of Un Amour de Swann. And we know that P..."
Yes, you are probably right.. Our perception of relative age has changed a great deal. The narrator, when he is wearing his omniscient hat makes this comment about how one feels about love when one has a few years, but this could also be anything. Proust was writing this in his early forties.
I don't think age is a factor in the consideration of experience for a man or woman. Think Tiger Woods. Think Madonna. And the same with the military. People are joining the military at very young ages and gaining high ranks also at a relatively young age. So now that it was determined 50 was a typo I am also inclined to believe that Swann was in his thirties when he met Odette.
Jeremy wrote: "I don't think age is a factor in the consideration of experience for a man or woman. Think Tiger Woods. Think Madonna. And the same with the military. People are joining the military at very yo..."Think of any teenager nowadays..!!
I agree that his age doesn't matter a great deal, but as we are trying to build up a picture of Swann, and the narrator is throwing us these clues here and there, his age does intrigue us.The Franco-Prussian war ended in 1871 (the year Proust was born) so Swann could have served in it as a young officer of nineteen or twenty and still be in his thirties in 1882.
Fionnuala wrote: "I agree that his age doesn't matter a great deal, but as we are trying to build up a picture of Swann, and the narrator is throwing us these clues here and there, his age does intrigue us.The Fran..."
Yes, this is a very comfortable estimate.
Odette not up to par with Swann's ideal, but he reconciling the disparity inside his head to the point that he falls madly in love with her, recalls a statement back in the Combray section."Je trouve très raisonnable la croyance celtique que les âmes de ceux que nous avons perdus sont captives dans quelque être inférieur, dans une bête, un végétal, une chose inanimée, perdues en effet pour nous jusqu’au jour, qui pour beaucoup ne vient jamais, où nous nous trouvons passer près de l’arbre, entrer en possession de l’objet qui est leur prison. Alors elles tressaillent, nous appellent, et sitôt que nous les avons reconnues, l’enchantement est brisé. Délivrées par nous, elles ont vaincu la mort et reviennent vivre avec nous."
LD:
"I find the Celtic belief very reasonable, that the souls of those we have lost are held captive in some inferior creature, in an animal, in a plant, in some inanimate object, effectively lost to us until the day, which for many never comes, when we happen to pass close to the tree, come into possession of the object that is their prison."
ML:
"I feel that there is much to be said for the Celtic belief that the souls of those whom we have lost are held captive in some inferior being, in an animal, in a plant, in some inanimate object, and thus effectively lost to us until the day (which to many never comes) when we happen to pass by the tree or to obtain possession of the object which forms their prison. Then they start and tremble, they call us by our name, and as soon as we have recognised them the spell is broken. Delivered by us, they have overcome death and return to share our life."
This also goes to "désir" and "plaisir". What did Swann want from Odette? Remember, he had and could have had carnal pleasures with a lot of girls more of his physical type, but Odette stirred something in him such that he would marry her. What did he take pleasure out of that drives his passion?
Yeah, it's an interesting question, Aloha. I can't help but be puzzled over Swann's continuing attachment to Odette, actually. It seems they don't exactly "get along" on a moment to moment level. Odette seems to be regularly annoyed with Swann, while Swann seems content to not actually interact with Odette on any level that is mentally stimulating to him. The last paragraph of this week's reading (Swann's musings over other people's perception of Odette's motivations for remaining "with" Swann), struck me as remarkably ... something. Revealing? Puzzling? I'm still tossing it around in my mind.
Article on the parallels between Charles Swann and Charles Ephrussi, by Edmund de Waal.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/bo...
Kyle wrote: "Yeah, it's an interesting question, Aloha. I can't help but be puzzled over Swann's continuing attachment to Odette, actually. It seems they don't exactly "get along" on a moment to moment level. O..."This goes back to "perdu", which is "lost" or "waste". Swann was aware that "he had wasted his intellectual gifts in frivolous pleasures" (LD), then became stirred by "la phrase" as if he had recognized what he had lost (Celtic belief) but somehow attached it to Odette. This resulted in his ridiculous delusion in his opinion of the Verdurins as "magnanimous."
"...You know, there are only two classes of people: the magnanimous ones and all the rest; and when you reach my age you have to choose, you have to decide once and for all whom you intend to like and, whom you intend to despise, stick with the ones you like, and, so as to make up for the time you've wasted with the others, not leave them again until you die...." (LD)
My take on this was that Swann had an epiphany that he wasn't going to waste another minute living a shallow life, but he ended up deluding himself by placing all his precious values on Odette and her environs.
Re Edmund de Waal: great article Kalliope. I'm going to save it and read it later because he starts to talk about further episodes in Swann's life.
Think of any teenager nowadays..!!
Please don't say that! I have two plus one close to pre-teen!! :)
Please don't say that! I have two plus one close to pre-teen!! :)
Aloha wrote: "Odette not up to par with Swann's ideal, but he reconciling the disparity inside his head to the point that he falls madly in love with her, recalls a statement back in the Combray section.
"Je tr..."
I also loved that passage Aloha. Thanks for bringing that up.
Do you suppose that Odette may have been the first woman that played hard to get?
"Je tr..."
I also loved that passage Aloha. Thanks for bringing that up.
Do you suppose that Odette may have been the first woman that played hard to get?
But did she play hard to get? I don't think so. She just maneuvered Swann into a position where he forgot about his many reservations regarding her beauty and her intelligence (and her background), and, with the help of 'la petite phrase', and his age, which inclined him to want a more permanent relationship, and his pleasure at having someone love him, and not forgetting her tea-making skills, he was seduced. Have I covered everything?
Fionnuala wrote: "But did she play hard to get? I don't think so. She just maneuvered Swann into a position where he forgot about his many reservations regarding her beauty and her intelligence (and her background),..."Don't forget the cattleyas! :oD
I forgot the cattelyas!
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
Marcel Proust: A Life (other topics)Madame Bovary (other topics)
Proust and Signs: The Complete Text (other topics)
It's the other little details that make me cringe - the way she calls a room "period" as though that means something, describes anything with wood paneling as "medieval", etc.