Through Sunday, 3 Feb.: Swann's Way

[Kalliope]

Yes.

[J.A.]

Reading this: The words 'Florentine painting' were invaluable to Swann. They enabled him (gave him, as it were, a legal title) to introduce the image of Odette into a world of dreams and fancies which, until then, she had been debarred from entering, and where she assumed a new and nobler form. (Moncrieff edition)

And was reminded of the section where the young Narrator encounters the Duchess at church. He's disappointed by her appearance but then lets his ideals of nobility reclothe her until she appears quite extraordinary to him.

[Kyle]

I couldn't help but smirk at Swann's transition in regards to Odette's attractiveness. His ambivalence to her swiftly changing into devotion just at the comparison to a painting, seemed at first quite ridiculous... until I thought about it and realized that I and other people I've seen (males mostly), have been guilty of being just as mercurial in the past.

In a lot of ways, our attraction to another is anchored by our mental image of that person, especially if that person is someone we see on a fairly regular basis (like Swann and Odette).

Yet how many times have we seen someone we had not previously been completely enamored with, strike a certain pose, wear a certain outfit, have the light hit them a certain way, and have our attraction to them greatly altered from a single moment? From that moment on, they have a certain glow, a certain sexyness we didn't pick up on before, a certain... je ne sais quoi.

One thing I find with reading, is that Proust (in a remarkably objective way) tends to easily cut down into the viscera, and expose the character flaws of the characters. From the beginning of the book, he held up the character flaws of his Father, Mother, and even himself. It seems I can't help but be caught in Proust's crosshairs too, since I often share some of the same character flaws as the characters in the book.

Now, unlike Swann, I can't claim to be a Don Juan. Yet, I still find myself understanding and sympathizing with his internal, mental paradoxes from time to time.

[Ian]

Kyle, you make many interesting points.

Re the Don Juan aspect of Swann, I inferred that his conquests had tended to be younger, less socially experienced women, who mightn't have had the wherewithal to handle themselves.

Odette, on the other hand, was socially experienced, and suddenly Swann got shy.

Re Swann's transition, there are a few responses.

I think Odette did appeal somehow to Swann (e.g., because of her experience and difficulty). It's just that she didn't conform to his preconceived aesthetic "type".

However, Swann's transition also coincided with the time they "made cattleyas".

It's possible that making cattlyas wasn't just the result of the transition, but the cause of it.

[Ian]

Mari wrote: "Ian wrote: "Proust lures the waves."

Proust lures the waves, then
Sends them out again, and we
Lie, awash in words.

(Your haiku inspired me, Ian :)"

I've only just seen your haiku, Mari, and I love it.

Never once did I feel that Proust had drowned me in words, I always felt that I was "awash" in something relaxing and sensuous. His words lapped at my side.

Thanks for capturing this so elegantly.

[[deleted user]]

I also noted the way that Swann convinced himself that Odette is beautiful - again a "work of the imagination", seeing what he wants or needs to see.

I found myself terribly sympathetic to Swann, who tries so hard to fit in amongst small-minded people and is - inevitably - reviled for his graciousness.

The pages about Odette's bad taste were amongst the most scathing we've read so far - "what spoke to her imagination was not the practice of disinterestedness, but its vocabulary" - but what surprised me most was the passage when Odette complains that Swann won't explain "big ideas" to her.

Just because Odette doesn't want to be educated or improved doesn't mean she's unaware that Swann disdains her, or thinks little of her. In fact, it's exactly the kind of thing a canny woman like Odette would pick up on immediately.

And the Verdurins, too, hate that "impenetrable space where he [Swann] continued to profess silently to himself that the Princesse de Sagan was not grotesque and that Cottard's jokes were not funny" - the Verdurins are ridiculous & it's awful that they demand such clannishness from their clan, but Swann really IS a cuckoo in the midst, and he IS condescending to them, however graciously.

And I have to say, I find the usage of the word "love" for what Swann & Odette feel for one another to be grotesque.

[knig]

Re Odette: I'm not sure Swann deems her either beautiful or desirable: in fact, having read quite a bit on in the novel, i'm not sure he is even sleeping with her (or do I have this wrong?)even though he is 'keeping her' (lots of francs seem to change hands). He seems more obsessed, rather, and at times it feels he is more enamoured of the idea of love than love itself.

[Aloha]

Madame X wrote: "I also noted the way that Swann convinced himself that Odette is beautiful - again a "work of the imagination", seeing what he wants or needs to see.

I found myself terribly sympathetic to Swann,..."

I agree with you on those points, Madame X. It's easy to develop taste when you've been immersed into it since childhood. It's more of an accomplishment to start from a humble beginning and know enough that you want these things, and try to acquire it the best way you know how. Also, the supply and demand of attraction and wealth were artificially created from the fact that men were given the material and educational advantages.

[Aloha]

knig wrote: "Re Odette: I'm not sure Swann deems her either beautiful or desirable: in fact, having read quite a bit on in the novel, i'm not sure he is even sleeping with her (or do I have this wrong?)even tho..."

Proust was subtle about it, but he's sleeping with her.

[Ian]

knig wrote: "Re Odette: I'm not sure Swann deems her either beautiful or desirable: in fact, having read quite a bit on in the novel, i'm not sure he is even sleeping with her (or do I have this wrong?)."

Making cattleyas is code for making love. I was never able to work out the timeframe of their relationship to determine when they started and finished.

[knig]

I wondered about that....thanks.

[Ian]

knig wrote: "He seems more obsessed, rather, and at times it feels he is more enamoured of the idea of love than love itself. ."

This is a pretty important distinction.

Proust seems to suggest that, at a particular age, the particular love interest is just a vehicle to trigger the involuntary memory of love.

As long as the person can pull the trigger, the memory of love can do the rest.

At this point, the love interest doesn't need to have all of the qualities that makes them the first person's "type" and inspires desire.

[knig]

Proust seems to suggest that, at a particular age, the particular love interest is just a vehicle to trigger the involuntary memory of love.

As long as the person can pull the trigger, the memory of love can do the rest.

Beautiful, Ian, thats how I read it as well

[Kalliope]

Ian wrote: "knig wrote: "Re Odette: I'm not sure Swann deems her either beautiful or desirable: in fact, having read quite a bit on in the novel, i'm not sure he is even sleeping with her (or do I have this wr..."

I think it is impossible to work out timeframes. In an earlier post two different dates were identified: 1882 with Gambetta's death, and 1879 with the Murcie flood (for which Paris organized a fund-raising ball). And all of this is supposed to happen before the Narrator's birth...!!!

Proust is treating time in a very elastic manner.

[Scribble]

Kalliope wrote: "Proust is treating time in a very elastic manner."

The nature of memory.

I'd also suggest that the concept of being in love with the idea of love occupies him, and it is perhaps less the object that retrieves memory, than the 'being in love with the idea of love' that illuminates the object and recalls previous instances.

[Kalliope]

Ian wrote: "Kyle, you make many interesting points.

Re the Don Juan aspect of Swann, I inferred that his conquests had tended to be younger, less socially experienced women, who mightn't have had the wherewit..."

For me the turning point in Swann's obsession for Odette is when he goes late to the Verdurins and she is not there. That triggers this Proustian "désir", which is wanting that which one does not have,... which leads to the desperate search for her in all possible restaurants and chocolatiers, and leads directly into the Carriage/Catleyas/Consummation episode (the 3 C's).

[Ian]

Scribble wrote: "I'd also suggest that the concept of being in love with the idea of love occupies him, and it is perhaps less the object that retrieves memory, than the 'being in love with the idea of love' that illuminates the object and recalls previous instances. .."

I'm not sure what difference it makes. If a passage of music triggers the memory of Odette and her love and therefore the idea of love, then when Swann seeks out the passage of music, what is driving him?

The love of the music, the love of Odette or the love of the idea of love?

[Scribble]

Ian wrote: "The love of the music, the love of Odette or the love of the idea of love? "

For me, the idea of being in love. Love of music, love of an individual, are separate. Partly because music is something which transports me, but can I truly say I love it, as I love a person? That's a rhetorical question, of course - by positing it, you have your answer.

The being in love with love = infatuation. Again, different.

[Ian]

Kalliope wrote: "For me the turning point in Swann's obsession for Odette is when he goes late to the Verdurins and she is not there. That triggers this Proustian "désir", which is wanting that which one does not have,... which leads to the desperate search for her in all possible restaurants and chocolatiers, and leasds direct into the Carriage/Catleyas/Consummation episode (the 3 C's). .."

I love the three C's!

This has to do with the lack of definition of desire.

What you describe is not aesthetic desire for the beauty of the type.

It is a more traditional definition of desire in terms of want.

I think Proust in translation uses desire in two ways. One is the aesthetically based desire or want.

The other is to want or wish for.

For example, he talks about "desiring" happiness.

[Kalliope]

Ian wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "For me the turning point in Swann's obsession for Odette is when he goes late to the Verdurins and she is not there. That triggers this Proustian "désir", which is wanting that whi..."

Yes, "désir" remains very fluid in Proust, like time, and memory...!!!

But also very powerful.

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: "...That triggers this Proustian "désir", which is wanting that which one does not have,... which leads to the desperate search for her in all possible restaurants and chocolatiers, and leads directly into the Carriage/Catleyas/Consummation episode (the 3 C's). "

So well put, Kalliope. And we remember that the backdrop to this 'consummation' is the carriage, in which perhaps he has also recently 'rearranged' the less exotic violets of the 'la petite ouvrière', so his motivations become even more complex. Needing the affair with one to inspire an affair with the other..

[Ian]

I suspect Swann needed to hold onto the younger woman/girl as "insurance" against the risk that he might fail with Odette.

Of course, men no longer think in these terms ;)

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "...That triggers this Proustian "désir", which is wanting that which one does not have,... which leads to the desperate search for her in all possible restaurants and chocolatiers,..."

I had forgotten about the violets... !!...

Which reminds me of a popular Spanish song, "La violetera", composed in Paris in 1914 by José Padilla, who was at the time the Conductor at the Paris Casino. The song is sung by a female seller of violets who is offering her flowers to the passing Gentleman...!!!

[Fionnuala]

Ian wrote: "I suspect Swann needed to hold onto the younger woman/girl as "insurance" against the risk that he might fail with Odette...."

I think the younger woman certainly served a function while he was becoming involved with Odette, but maybe insurance more as protection, the subconscious desire to save himself, not to be caught in Odette's web, which all came to nothing, of course when clever Odette saw an opportunity to provoke him into making a move.

[Fionnuala]

Kalliope wrote: ".......I had forgotten about the violets... !!... "

I don't know if there were any violets, but perhaps there were indeed some and that's why I imagine the seduction of the little seamstress beginning each evening in the carriage with Swann so gently and tenderly rearranging her little posy of violets. I always associate violets with poverty.

[Kalliope]

Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: ".......I had forgotten about the violets... !!... "

I don't know if there were any violets, but perhaps there were indeed some and that's why I imagine the seduction of the little..."

Yes, violets, poverty and services to gentlemen.. I also associate them (and the Spanish/French Cuplé..!)

[Aloha]

Ian wrote: "I suspect Swann needed to hold onto the younger woman/girl as "insurance" against the risk that he might fail with Odette.

Of course, men no longer think in these terms ;)"

The term is "have your cake and eat it, too."

[Aloha]

Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: ".......I had forgotten about the violets... !!... "

I don't know if there were any violets, but perhaps there were indeed some and that's why I imagine the seduc..."

It's interesting the focus on flowers, like the "fleshy cluster of orchids"ML. That reminds me of a gay male acquaintance who shudders at the mention of orchids. He hates them. Here's a close up of a cattleya orchid.

[[deleted user]]

Mari wrote: "Jason wrote: "Jeremy, in response to your first paragraph, my impression is that the narrator here is semi-omniscient. Just as the text floats seamlessly from pretty flowers to awesome dinner parti..."

The more I read this section of Swann in Love I am reminded of the way Philip Roth writes. The Narrator being different from the main character so that when you get to the end of the book you have no idea what was real and what was fabricated by the narrator to fill in the blanks. I could be totally off on this but it does make me wonder if Roth was influenced by this section or if this is just a type of writing style that is employed by a number of authors.

[Mari]

Ian wrote: "Mari wrote: "Ian wrote: "Proust lures the waves."

Proust lures the waves, then
Sends them out again, and we
Lie, awash in words.

(Your haiku inspired me, Ian :)"

I've only just seen your haiku, ..."

Thank you, Ian. As I said, I was inspired by your haiku that I found at your links and of course, you wrote the first line! And the rest just followed organically.

[Aloha]

"She found something “quaint” in the shape of each of her Chinese ornaments, and also in her orchids, the cattleyas especially—these being, with chrysanthemums, her favourite flowers, because they had the supreme merit of not looking like flowers, but of being made, apparently, of silk or satin." ML

Similar to what Madame X pointed out in another thread, I do wonder at the hostility toward the female sex. So far, with the exception of the Narrator's female relatives and personal servants, women he adore, the women are painted as posers and manipulators, such as Odette's love of orchids and chrysanthemums because they look like something else instead of themselves. I searched for the French symbolic meaning of chrysanthemums, and they symbolize death and bad luck. Odette always have chrysanthemums around, which Swann detested.

[[deleted user]]

I would say he's pretty hostile to most of the characters.

[Jason]

Yeah, I definitely don't agree that the writing is hostile toward female characters. Some characters are depicted as shallow, that's true, but it does not seem to me to be directed at all toward the females in particular.

[Kalliope]

Jason wrote: "Yeah, I definitely don't agree that the writing is hostile toward female characters. Some characters are depicted as shallow, that's true, but it does not seem to me to be directed at all toward th..."

I agree..

[Kalliope]

Aloha wrote: ""She found something “quaint” in the shape of each of her Chinese ornaments, and also in her orchids, the cattleyas especially—these being, with chrysanthemums, her favourite flowers, because they ..."

The availability of Chrysanthemus was relatively new at the time the story is supposed to take place. They were part of the Japonisme fad --which started as something special but eventually became common and somewhat vulgar.

And the Narrator even says so, and that they "agace" Swann.

Their association with death came later.

[Mari]

Proustitute wrote: "Jason wrote: "Yeah, I definitely don't agree that the writing is hostile toward female characters. Some characters are depicted as shallow, that's true, but it does not seem to me to be directed at..."

Moi, aussi

[Fionnuala]

Another amazing painting. As with Whistler's Lady Meaux, which Kalliope posted yesterday, the description of Odette from the early section of Un Amour de Swann fits this perfectly: "Her eyes were lovely, but so large they bent under their own mass, exhausted the rest of her face and always gave her a look of being in ill-health or ill-humour." LD

[Kalliope]

Proustitute wrote:

Jules-Élie Delaunay, Portrait of Madame Georges Bizet, 1878


Wonderful depiction of her hands.

[[deleted user]]

I don't think there's any special animosity toward women here. Cottard and Legrandin have been caricatured as cruelly as any female, if not more so.

I have consistently found Proust's evocation of desire and love to be unsavory, which might be the point you're recalling from another thread. Even in this thread, the idea that it's "mature" to fall in love with a woman one doesn't like or esteem seems bizarre to me. The maturity is a symptom of age and experience, but requires no accumulated wisdom.

[Ian]

Re hostility against women, I still feel that Proust sided with Odette against Swann.

Swann was trapped in an aesthetic of his own making (well, Proust's actually). It was ridiculous to close off an experience of reality, based on an artistic theory applied to life.

(view spoiler)[Whatever the problems and differences described in "Swann in Love", Swann would love Odette enough to marry her and give birth to Gilberte. (hide spoiler)]

[Ian]

Madame X wrote: "Even in this thread, the idea that it's "mature" to fall in love with a woman one doesn't like or esteem seems bizarre to me."

I personally don't see Swann as not liking or esteeming Odette.

She simply doesn't fit his ideal "type", which forces him to struggle with and reconsider his aesthetic ideal.

In a sense, the challenge confronting Swann was, if the ideal doesn't fit the reality, change the ideal.

As the father of two teenage girls, I feel that idealised definitions of beauty, whether socially or personally imposed, are just as limiting and self-destructive as ever.

It's bad enough that males are victim to them in their perspective on females, it's worse when females impose them on themselves and feel inferior for not meeting the requirements of the ideal version of themselves.

It comes back to, be yourself, not the ideal.

[[deleted user]]

Ian wrote: "I personally don't see Swann as not liking or esteeming Odette.

She simply doesn't fit his ideal "type", which forces him to struggle with and reconsider his aesthetic ideal."

He doesn't find her attractive. He thinks she's stupid. He thinks she has horrible, vulgar taste. On page 239 of my LD hardback, on why one [Swann, in this case, but generalized] falls in love with one person instead of another: "It is not even necessary for us to have liked him better than anyone else up to then, or even as much." - Think about that. Or even as much.

Swann objectifies Odette to such an extent that, in order to love her, he must reduce her entire personality to a manifestation of her circumstances (like the Breton woman with her coif & belief in ghosts) and he ignores every part of her life that doesn't directly pertain to him. The icing on the cake is that he doesn't find her attractive, either.

This is not a story of Odette's inner beauty triumphing over her less than perfect looks. It's Odette the practiced harlot who, luckily, is hardened enough to see Swann's obsession for what it is & get what value from it that she can.

[Ian]

I accept that he is judging two different aspects of Odette: one her appearance and the other her intellect or social demeanour.

You're right about the latter.

Without a picture, it's hard to define what Swann finds wrong with Odette's appearance.

She is supposed to be "too" thin, too sharply featured, too pale, and at times too sickly, all of which sound to me like characteristics of Proust personally when he was ill.

She is just not plump and pink and round.

Which is probably why I, the very model of a modern male, still think that I might find her attractive ;)

[Aloha]

Ian wrote: "She is just not plump and pink and round."

Before bacon.

[[deleted user]]

Madame X wrote: "Ian wrote: "I personally don't see Swann as not liking or esteeming Odette.

She simply doesn't fit his ideal "type", which forces him to struggle with and reconsider his aesthetic ideal."

He does..."

I think Swann has gotten himself into his own emotional trap and I don't blame Odette for that but I would hardly make her out to be a hero for taking advantage of him instead of ending the relationship and moving on!

[Ian]

Aloha wrote: "Before bacon."

Haha. Oink oink.

[[deleted user]]

Jeremy wrote: "I would hardly make her out to be a hero for taking advantage of him instead of ending the relationship and moving on!"

I find Odette really vile, but men like Swann are her literal bread and butter so....

[Ian]

Jeremy wrote: "I think Swann has gotten himself into his own emotional trap and I don't blame Odette for that but I would hardly make her out to be a hero for taking advantage of him instead of ending the relationship and moving on!"

It's difficult to determine exactly what she did in that regard and the timeframe over which she did it.

I'm a bit conscious of spoiler issues in trying to respond otherwise.

[Aloha]

Jeremy wrote: "Madame X wrote: "Ian wrote: "I personally don't see Swann as not liking or esteeming Odette.

She simply doesn't fit his ideal "type", which forces him to struggle with and reconsider his aesthetic..."

This is during the time when women do not have as much options for their own economic survival, so Odette doesn't have the luxury of taking the high road.

[Ian]

Perhaps this language will be too commercial, but Odette seems to me to be simply trying to make herself an attractive target for a friendly takeover bid, otherwise known as a marriage proposal. She eventually succeeded. In the meantime, she has to survive financially, albeit as a courtesan.

What does her courtesanship say about her? That she didn't come from a wealthy family who could support her? That she was tantamount to a prostitute? That she was merely vile? I don't know and am reluctant to judge from this distance.