The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
Swann’s Way
Swann's Way, vol. 1
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Through Sunday, 3 Feb.: Swann's Way
Fionnuala wrote: "Re Laure Hayman, some sites which feature her career as a courtisane give a lot of details about Odette which we may not want to know at present. I mentioned her only to point out that she might be..."My guess is that the Lady in Pink at the Uncle's is Odette.
"Rose" seems to be her favorite color and I should post a wonderful painting by Sargent of a lady attired in pink and japonisme..
Carter's bio has quite a bit of information on Laura Hayman.
Eugene wrote: "In the 2 years I've been reading ISOLT via the Davis, Kilmartin & Enright, Kilmartin, & Moncrieff translations & in the original French from time to time to verify their accuracy I'm stopped by the..."I think 'plaisir' or 'pleasure' is used with reference to a wide variety of experiences, from wet dreams to reading, from potato purée to conversation. But it is an important theme....
Fionnuala wrote: "Eugene wrote: "In the 2 years I've been reading ISOLT via the Davis, Kilmartin & Enright, Kilmartin, & Moncrieff translations & in the original French from time to time to verify their accuracy I'm..."Yes, and it rhymes with Désir..., which cannot be defined either.
Many in the group have read Madame Bovary in preparation.Proust has set Odette's seduction scene also in a carriage, echoing the very famous of Emma's.
With references from reading Marcel Proust: A Life, I'm wondering whether an eBook coming out is a sure thing. Proustitute, I think you posted info. on that but I can't find it. Is an eBook of this confirmed, or should I read the hardback I have? My preference is the eBook format since it's easier for me to read.
@Fionnuala@Kalliope
One of my points was to mark the word "pleasure" so that when readers read it they might ask themselves why doesn't Proust qualify the term as he so often qualifies the term "desire" in multiple nuances when describing character.
Another point, that is not well said in my original comment or said at all, is about the appreciation of why we're reading Proust; why aren't we reading multiple novels of Balzac or of Flaubert or another author that would take us a year too.
Why is Proust special to us, what about his writing is unique here?
The year has just begun; "indeed there will be time" for each of us to answer these questions for ourselves, "to prepare a face to meet the faces that you meet".
Eugene wrote: "@Fionnuala@Kalliope
why aren't we reading multiple novels of Balzac or of Flaubert or another author that would take us a year too. "..."
I would love to spend a year, or five, reading Shakespeare with such a group as this!
Eugene wrote: "@Fionnuala@Kalliope
One of my points was to mark the word "pleasure" so that when readers read it they might ask themselves why doesn't Proust qualify the term as he so often qualifies the term "..."
Eugene, thank you for these comments. I will pay attention to these two words, plaisir and désir. Their meaning will probably change, but only the context might give clues.
As to the other question. I cannot answer. I have read a great deal of French literature in the past, and yet, I had not read Proust !. I keep asking myself, why not? I had bought the books back in 1983, and I even had to bring them down from the attic.
I think that I was scared of them, or realized that they could not be read just anyhow.. that I needed a long summer by the beach or something of the sort to tackle them... This group offers me a wonderful alternative to those idle and sunlit months that I cannot currently have.
Fionnuala wrote: "Eugene wrote: "@Fionnuala@Kalliope
I would love to spend a year, or five, r..."
Haha... Proustitute and I talked of doing one for Henry James, but yes, I would sign up for Shakespeare too.
I second or third that!
Kalliope wrote: "I think that I was scared of them, or realized that they could not be read just anyhow.. that I needed a long summer by the beach or something of the sort to tackle them... This group offers me a wonderful alternative to those idle and sunlit months that I cannot have now. "Eugene, Kalliope,
I think your answer, Kalliope, sums up the apprehension which many people feel at the idea of reading Proust's monumental 'A la Recherche du temps perdu'.
That's what makes the idea of reading him with others, and with a schedule, and therefore a kind of discipline, so attractive.
When I tried reading him five years ago, I too planned to read him by the beach but it didn't work out very well. I skimmed through the first book, missing nearly everything - except the grandmother who stuck in my mind particularly well - and I gave up half way through 'A l'Ombre'. I tried to read the Tadié biography alongside but gave up on that too. None of it worked at the beach.
Perhaps I was at the wrong beach - I should have gone to Cabourg!
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I think that I was scared of them, or realized that they could not be read just anyhow.. that I needed a long summer by the beach or something of the sort to tackle them... This gr..."Yes, I suppose I was fearing exactly what you mention, and that is why I took them up to the attic..
The beach halves my intellect. I just want to think of waves.
Ian wrote: "The beach halves my intellect. I just want to think of waves."Don't waive when it comes to Proust!
Proust lures the waves.
Jason wrote: "Compromises and justifications, oh my!
I couldn't agree with this more. It's like the musings of a man who feels the need to rationalize his choices because they so inherently contradict the life ..."
That is what I have thought this whole time! A train wreck. Nooooo...don't do it Swann! Though she lavishes some attention upon him at first she seems to take the upper hand, so to speak, when he goes near and far to find her in Paris. Never a good recipe when he must compromise his being and she is not doing the same.
I was taken aback a little when Mme Verdurin suggested that Odette sleep with Swann! Throughout the course of this reading section we have at the same time Odette losing any passion she might have had for Swann (although remaining attached for purposes of "self interest") and the Verdurins and faithfuls becoming disenchanted with him. Although Odette could be considered a faithful I still see it as distinct forces that reinforce the other. While Odette now becomes attracted to another man Mme Verdurin is encouraging that attraction. All at the same time. This shows the power of group social dynamics.
I couldn't agree with this more. It's like the musings of a man who feels the need to rationalize his choices because they so inherently contradict the life ..."
That is what I have thought this whole time! A train wreck. Nooooo...don't do it Swann! Though she lavishes some attention upon him at first she seems to take the upper hand, so to speak, when he goes near and far to find her in Paris. Never a good recipe when he must compromise his being and she is not doing the same.
I was taken aback a little when Mme Verdurin suggested that Odette sleep with Swann! Throughout the course of this reading section we have at the same time Odette losing any passion she might have had for Swann (although remaining attached for purposes of "self interest") and the Verdurins and faithfuls becoming disenchanted with him. Although Odette could be considered a faithful I still see it as distinct forces that reinforce the other. While Odette now becomes attracted to another man Mme Verdurin is encouraging that attraction. All at the same time. This shows the power of group social dynamics.
Jonathan wrote: "--page 226 of the LD: "The little working girl [can we know yet whether this says outright prostitute?] would wait for him near his house at a corner known to his coachman Remi, she would get in be..."
In the ML edition I believe it refers to her as a servant girl. My impression is that he was another of the "lower class" that Swann likes to spend his time with. I do not think she was a prostitute. I could be wrong, though!
In the ML edition I believe it refers to her as a servant girl. My impression is that he was another of the "lower class" that Swann likes to spend his time with. I do not think she was a prostitute. I could be wrong, though!
Jeremy wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "--page 226 of the LD: "The little working girl [can we know yet whether this says outright prostitute?] would wait for him near his house at a corner known to his coachman Remi, sh..."This was also my impression.
Ian wrote: "Proust lures the waves."Proust lures the waves, then
Sends them out again, and we
Lie, awash in words.
(Your haiku inspired me, Ian :)
A bit has been said about Swann in Love being written from the third person. Now I have read about 100 pages of this section I doubt that this section is coming from the Narrator as a retelling of somebody else's memory. Not without a lot of embellishment. There is not a single person he would have been able to understand the viewpoint of the Verdurins and Swann at the same time. Unless he interviewed in some fashion all of these people. Perhaps it is revealed later in ISOLT but the only way I would believe this section is coming from the the Narrator is if he is basically fictionilizing Swann's life from what little he does know.
In response to the need for Swann - and possibly the Narrator - to compare people to art. In addition to Proust's love of art I think this is also a natural thing to do for many people. Myself, I am constantly comparing an actor/actress in a movie to somebody I know. I wonder if in a world before television if it was somewhat common for people to use art in this fashion as sort of a game. This thought is not to belittle that it was the art comparison that gave Swann additional feelings for Odette but also if you supposed your future significant other to look similar to a famous actor/actress that you find to be attractive that would reinforce your level of attraction to both people.
In response to the need for Swann - and possibly the Narrator - to compare people to art. In addition to Proust's love of art I think this is also a natural thing to do for many people. Myself, I am constantly comparing an actor/actress in a movie to somebody I know. I wonder if in a world before television if it was somewhat common for people to use art in this fashion as sort of a game. This thought is not to belittle that it was the art comparison that gave Swann additional feelings for Odette but also if you supposed your future significant other to look similar to a famous actor/actress that you find to be attractive that would reinforce your level of attraction to both people.
I love your haiku, Ian and it makes me think of Woolf and her parallels with Proust.
Jeremy, in response to your first paragraph, my impression is that the narrator here is semi-omniscient. Just as the text floats seamlessly from pretty flowers to awesome dinner parties, the narration seems to float from first to third pretty seamlessly.
Jason wrote: "Jeremy, in response to your first paragraph, my impression is that the narrator here is semi-omniscient. Just as the text floats seamlessly from pretty flowers to awesome dinner parties, the narrat..."I agree, I believe the narrator here is semi-omniscient. There doesn't seem to be any other way he could know some things, unless he is making it up, as Jeremy said.
Proustitute wrote: "Aloha, Carter himself told me an ebook would be released when his Proust bio is reissued in March."This is great news... because the eformat is better for searches also.
Proustitute wrote: ""The little working girl" may not be a prostitute, per se, but I think it's strongly suggested that Swann would be paying her for her time..."...as in paying her bills when she 'is hard-pressed by a debt'?
Proustitute wrote: "Aloha, Carter himself told me an ebook would be released when his Proust bio is reissued in March."Thanks, P! I hope I can wait that long.
Fionnuala wrote: "Proustitute wrote: ""The little working girl" may not be a prostitute, per se, but I think it's strongly suggested that Swann would be paying her for her time..."...as in paying her bills when sh..."
That kind of exchange is as old as there are people, from the time when the hunter would trade a kill for sex.
Eugene wrote: "@Fionnuala@Kalliope
One of my points was to mark the word "pleasure" so that when readers read it they might ask themselves why doesn't Proust qualify the term as he so often qualifies the term "..."
I did a search for "plaisir" in the French that is the complete seven volumes, and it showed up 115 times. "Désir" showed up 110 times. According to my Oxford French Dictionary, "plaisir" is "sensual/aesthetic pleasure." "Désir" is desire, which is a "want." Proust left "plaisir" open ended on purpose. In Combray II, the passage of Mlle Vintueil's sadism toward her father gives a significant clue:
“Ce n’est pas le mal qui lui donnait l’idée du plaisir, qui lui semblait agréable ; c’est le plaisir qui lui semblait malin. Et comme chaque fois qu’elle s’y adonnait il s’accompagnait pour elle de ces pensées mauvaises qui le reste du temps étaient absentes de son âme vertueuse, elle finissait par trouver au plaisir quelque chose de diabolique, par l’identifier au Mal.”
ML:
"It was not evil that gave her the idea of pleasure, that seemed to her attractive; it was pleasure, rather, that seemed evil. And as, each time she indulged in it, it was accompanied by evil thoughts such as ordinarily had no place in her virtuous mind, she came at length to see in pleasure itself something diabolical, to identify it with Evil."
LD:
“It was not evil which gave her the idea of pleasure, which seemed agreeable to her; it was pleasure that seemed to her malign. And since each time she indulged in it, it was accompanied by these bad thoughts which were absent the rest of the time from her virtuous soul, she came to see pleasure as something diabolical, to identify it with Evil."
Oh she's hard-pressed all right.
I think MKE used the term "little seamstress." Let me check.
That line about hard-pressed, I took from the end of this weeks section and it refers to.....Odette!
Proustitute wrote: "Aloha, can you check the French edition for "the little working girl" which Jeremy says MKE renders as "servant girl"? I'd be curious to see the original French for this and you're more skilled wit...""La petite ouvrière l’attendait près de chez lui à un coin de rue que son cocher Rémi connaissait, elle montait à côté de Swann et restait dans ses bras jusqu’au moment où la voiture l’arrêtait devant chez les Verdurin."
ML:
"The little seamstress would wait for him at a street corner which Rémi, his coachman, knew; she would jump in beside him, and remain in his arms until the carriage drew up at the Verdurins’."
LD:
“The little working girl would wait for him near his house at a corner known to his coachman Rémi, she would get in beside Swann and stay there in his arms until the moment the carriage drew up in front of the Verdurins’.”
Proustitute wrote: "F., yes: I was going to say that was Odette! I really wish GR had a better p..."Totally agree about the phone app.
I was trying to point out that 'la petite ouvrière' was no more or less a prostitute than Odette herself.
It'll be interesting to take note of the evolution of "pleasure" and "desire" in Proust's work, and as they apply to each situation. Is pleasure good or evil? How does that change? If pleasure feels good, then how can it be evil? Do we desire only pleasure and not pain? If pleasure brings pain, then what is pleasure? If pleasure brings pain, then why desire it? How is desire related to pleasure?
Fionnuala wrote: I was trying to point out that 'la petite ouvrière' was no more or less a prostitute than Odette herself. Very much so.
J.A. wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: I was trying to point out that 'la petite ouvrière' was no more or less a prostitute than Odette herself. Very much so."
I prefer to think in terms of supply and demand. :o)
Here we have Whistler's Lady Meaux, in "rose", and whose social origins before she married Sir Henry Meaux, are not clear.
Aloha wrote: "It'll be interesting to take note of the evolution of "pleasure" and "desire" in Proust's work, and as they apply to each situation. Is pleasure good or evil? How does that change? If pleasure brings pain, then what is pleasure? If pleasure brings pain, then why desire it? How is desire related to pleasure?"I've been interested in these words as well.
In fact, there are four terms I am watching: pleasure, happiness, desire and love.
I will put the rest of my post under spoiler tags:
(view spoiler)
Aloha wrote: "I prefer to think in terms of supply and demand. :o) "Supply does not always follow demand, unfortunately.
Sometimes, it is only the fact of supply or availability that creates the demand or appetite. Conversely (or perversely), you can only acquire what is available. :o)
Eugene wrote: "@Fionnuala@Kalliope
One of my points was to mark the word "pleasure" so that when readers read it they might ask themselves why doesn't Proust qualify the term as he so often qualifies the term "..."
Ah! .. le désir du plaisir...!!!
Proustitute wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "You may want to post these in the Karpeles thread. Someone had been updating the paintings there but has discontinued. "I don't think James has stopped doing it: we just tend to ..."
Ok... it is not an easy task.. some images are relatively easy but others are not, such as the drawings of Watteau's heads.. so James has not set himself something easy...!!
Kalliope wrote: "Here we have Whistler's Lady Meaux, in "rose", and whose social origins before she married Sir Henry Meaux, are not clear."An amazing painting. "Her eyes were lovely, but so large they bent under their own mass, exhausted the rest of her face and always gave her a look of being in ill-health or ill-humour." LD
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Here we have Whistler's Lady Meaux, in "rose", and whose social origins before she married Sir Henry Meaux, are not clear."An amazing painting. "Her eyes were lovely, but so larg..."
Yes, those who are in NY should go and visit the Frick... another amazing painting there, and VERY relevant to Proust is:
Again by Whistler, but this time Proust's friend le Comte Robert de Montesquiou-Fezansac.
I've put my post 98 under spoiler tags. Is this discussion of the meaning of some key terms better placed in a different thread, given that it is not just concerned with this week's reading?
I would like to see what others have to think about the terms Proust uses.
Ian wrote: "I've put my post 98 under spoiler tags. Is this discussion of the meaning of some key terms better placed in a different thread, given that it is not just concerned with this week's reading?
I w..."
Yes, it is hard to keep track of some threads in the novel that will come up several times.
Ian, in an earlier thread you also commented on the word "gaze" also (I think on the discussion for Jan 20th), and I posted my opinion.. That is another big theme... But there are so many...!
Thanks, Kalliope. Your earlier response was very helpful.Lacan can have no monopoly on the word "gaze".
I'm trying to meld my reading of Proust into a broader personal project of investigating love and relationships from Kant and Hegel through Continental Philosophy (including Lacan, Deleuze and Badiou) to Luce Irigaray and the feminist response.
Je Tu Nous.
That is a lovely project!!!There is a book about Proust that I think discusses the philosophical basis of his work and finds that it is the German tradition that provides the basis. It is by Houston and is in the Group's library.
I have it, but still unread.
Proustitute wrote: "Ian, you should check out some of the auxiliary threads here. I know Joshua and a few others are reading Proust and Signs."Thanks, there was definitely an element of proto-semiotics in Swann's Way. A very nice discussion about (view spoiler).
Kalliope wrote: "That is a lovely project!!!There is a book about Proust that I think discusses the philosophical basis of his work and finds that it is the German tradition that provides the basis."
Thanks, I assume it is "The Shape and Style of Proust's Novel"?
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
Marcel Proust: A Life (other topics)Madame Bovary (other topics)
Proust and Signs: The Complete Text (other topics)
Let me be bold & suggest an example, I want Proust to define pleasure as in the following quoted passage from this week's reading, he could say, ...also had regarded with a sense of satisfaction that made, etc. etc. and....
I want him to tell me more about pleasure, tell me what he means by the term in his contexts.
"...in his perception of the fact that they also had regarded with pleasureand had admitted into the canon of their works such types of physiognomy as give those works the strongest possible certificate of reality and trueness to life..." Moncrieff