Women and Men discussion
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I finally read the Wiki on Women and Men. I was avoiding it since I wanted to have no preconception while I'm reading the novel. But here are the missing chapters:The Unknown Kid, TriQuarterly 51, (Spring 1981), reprinted in Night Soul and Other Stories. 2011.
Preparations for Search, Formations 1.1 (1984), reprinted as a separate chapbook, 2010.
Aloha--Can you identify which chapters are represented in these two pieces which were independently published:
1) "The Sound," Fiction 5.2/3 (1978)
2) "A People Oriented Bomb of Late America," Grand Street 2.1 (Autumn 1982)
cf. wikipedia article
Both, I think, are late in the book, although "The Sound" could be "the unknown sound." Which is the Bomb chapter?
I'm not sure about "The Sound", can you give me the beginning paragraph of that? I can't find it in my search. But #2, "A People Oriented Bomb of Late America," is "The Dream as Later Reported" in Between Us: A Breather Toward the End.
Aloha wrote: "I'm not sure about "The Sound", can you give me the beginning paragraph of that? I can't find it in my search. But #2, "A People Oriented Bomb of Late America," is "The Dream as Later Reported" i..."Thanks, Aloha. All I know about "The Sound" is from the wiki page. We can leave it as an "unknown" for now. But if there is nothing else Sound-ish, perhaps it is "the unknown sound."
Here's a great quote:Roland Barthes describes in The Pleasure of the Text: "The brio of the text (without which, after all, there is no text) is its will to bliss: just where it exceeds demand, transcends prattle, and whereby it attempts to overflow, to break through the constraint of adjectives. .. ."'
Along with Heidegger, another philosopher to look at is Hegel, who was mentioned in the book. In the 0690 OPENING IN THE VOID (smile), there was a mention of Hegel and obstacles. Obstacle is a significant repetitive theme throughout the book (among many I've found). I found an interesting article regarding Hegel and history:History as a process of dialectical change: Hegel and Marx
Aloha wrote: "Along with Heidegger, another philosopher to look at is Hegel, who was mentioned in the book. In the 0690 OPENING IN THE VOID (smile), there was a mention of Hegel and obstacles. Obstacle is a si..."I love the Foley chapter!
Hegel always shows up whenever Marx shows up, in general and all. I think with W&M's interest in economics that Marx is the more important of the two (but re: economics, Keynes may be more important). I'm not quite sure that Hegel's history stuff will shed any light, but if he's popping up in Foley's chapter, well, there could be some interesting fireworks in that one. Other than that, Hegel can be found everywhere, but you knew that.
I'm seeing this intricate weaving of philosophy (division of labor, obstacles, direction of history, self-determination, etc.) with meteorology (directions of the weather rose, radiation, thunder, clouds, libration points (pull of sun, moon planets affecting gravity), etc.) with history (Chilean economist, women's lib., Navajo land exposure to radiation, Wild West, the Colt, etc.) with myths (Aboriginal, Navajo, etc.) with mystery (what's up with the bike thing? What's up with Spence? What's up with the Chilean economist? Etc.) with SciFi (invention of radiation that turns one into two or more, and the reverse, Colloidal Unconscious ability due to chemistry) with human relationships. Did I leave out anything? This is going to be one hell of a review I'm going to have to write! :oD
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Hegel always shows up whenever Marx shows up, in general and all. I think with W&M's interest in economics that Marx is the more important of the two (but re: economics, Keynes may be more important). I'm not quite sure that Hegel's history stuff will shed any light, but if he's popping up in Foley's chapter, well, there could be some interesting fireworks in that one. Other than that, Hegel can be found everywhere, but you knew that. "The Keynesian economics, to me, is only metaphorical in the theme of a working together from various sectors to create a thriving economy, of a balanced give and take. This balance and connectivity theme is repeated throughout in gravity and libration points affecting weather, in the relationship between women and men, in Marx's division of labor, in the SciFi of one split into two back into one, in the mystery of the twin, in the matriarchy and patriarchy of history, etc.
I think Hegel is significant with regards to mentioning history as a dynamic flow created by the human self-realization after overcoming obstacle placed by the self.
Aloha wrote: "The Keynesian economics, to me, is only metaphorical of the theme of a working together from various sectors to create a thriving economy,"The Chilean material--the ouster of Allende by the CIA, etc, in the name of imposing the economic principles of the Chicago School--raises the economic concerns of the book beyond mere metaphor. If we want to include Hegel within the thinking of W&M, we can't appeal to the 'balance' metaphor, because Hegel was not a philosopher of balance. Hegel's thinking of the Two is not Aristotle's median point between two extremes.
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Aloha wrote: "The Keynesian economics, to me, is only metaphorical of the theme of a working together from various sectors to create a thriving economy,"The Chilean material--the ouster of Allend..."
I'm wondering what the true concern of the book is. Thinking in the SciFi part of this book, after the invention of the technology that allows one to split into two into one for economy, there's a question of
"....An economy the future holds like word that is carried but not known in so many words. Is there divorce there, after this two-into-one technology?"
With the repetition of the twin mystery, libration points affecting weather, patriarchy/matriarchy, I'm thinking it's about balance affecting the outcome. But perhaps balance as an aggregation of forces, as in several libration points (L1, L2, etc.), with the two major bodies metaphorically represented by Jim and Grace (sun, moon).
Could McElroy combine aspects of varying philosophies? The above quote suggests to me that after the 2 into one technology, then history has a "divorce" and moves on to the next event, as suggested by Hegel. Divorce is repeated throughout the book, Grace's divorce, Sue's divorce then wanting to get back together, Jim's divorce. So balance is never really a true culmination, but is a stop in the dynamic movement of history.
Here is the Lagrange points from wiki and the description:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangi...
A contour plot of the effective potential due to gravity and the centrifugal force of a two-body system in a rotating frame of reference. The arrows indicate the gradients of the potential around the five Lagrange points — downhill toward them (red) or away from them (blue). Counterintuitively, the L4 and L5 points are the high points of the potential. At the points themselves these forces are balanced.
Wind Rose:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_rose
Before the development of the compass rose, a wind rose was included on maps in order to let the reader know which directions the 8 major winds (and sometimes 8 half winds and 16 quarter winds) blew within the plan view. No differentiation was made between cardinal directions and the winds which blew from said direction. North was depicted with a fleur de lis, while east was shown as a Christian cross to indicate the direction of Jerusalem from Europe.[1][2]
I put this in a chapter discussion, but I think it belongs here:I was flipping through Introduction to Meteorology to compare its definition with its usage in W&M. Here are the definitions I found in the book that may have relevance to W&M:
1. Radiation Theory: Physicists employ the term radiation when speaking of an energy-transfer process that requires no physical medium for its propagation. Radiant energy is that form of energy which is transferred by radiation. These are abstract concepts. In our ordinary Newtonian frame of reference, radiant energy has no mass. It is not visible. In fact, radiant energy is undetectable except by specially designed "receivers" or detectors. These detectors are usually quite selective in the fraction of the total radiant energy to which they respond...
(p.82)
2. Wind roses: Experience indicates that the wind direction at any given place may vary from hour to hour and from day to day. In some instances, pronounced changes with the seasons are brought about by variations in the major dynamic and thermal circulation patterns. Some fluctuation may be due to local turbulence...
In this connection, a graphical representation of the relative frequency of the wind from a given direction is shown by the length of a line radiating from a circle. An array of such lines represents the average wind direction to eight points of the compass. Such a diagram is called a wind rose. The wind rose provides statistical information on the horizontal motion of the atmosphere, although, of course, it does not distinguish between causes. It is a valuable aid in planning airport runway layouts, locations of vegetative wind screens, and architectural features in buildings. It is of great value in air pollution studies and industrial planning where gaseous effluent may seriously affect the economy of an entire district.
(P. 74)
In The Art of Excess: Mastery in Contemporary American Fiction, Tom LeClair considered W&M to fall under the category of the systems novel. He summarized the systems theory of Ludwig von Bertalanffy, General System Theory: Foundations, Development, Applications. Here is LeClair's summation (pp 8 - 9):-Because living systems are dynamic processes that combine energy and information in reciprocal relations, the systems are not separable into parts but must be considered as wholes.
-Mechanistic principles used to analyze closed sytems of entities in linear chains of cause and effect cannot adequately describe the circular causality of living systems, which are open and interacting with other systems.
-Defined as "organized complexity," these open systems also resist mechanistic study because it attends to the atomistic and reductive elements of reality.
-The nature of living systems is found primarily in differentiation of structure and form, in these carriers of information rather than in the exchange of energy and force.
-The processes of open systems are "equifinal": end results cannot be determined or predicted from initial conditions, as mechanism claimed for its experiments.
-Living, open systems are goal-seeking, self-organizing, and self-correcting, tending toward "homeostasis" (or equilibrium), which contrasts with the thermodynamic model of closed systems and increasing entropy. (This concept - "homeostasis" - is the one most modified by later systems thinkers.)
-The optimum condition of a system exists when it has variety in its information and flexibility for adaptation.
-The privileged model of the living system is the ecosystem, which as a whole is beyond any experimental conditions.
-The observer or theorist, unlike the physicist who stands apart from his experiment, is part of the system under investigation and is therefore limited to what von Bertalanffy called "perspectivism."
-The either/or logic of mechanism is inadequate to analyze the both/and relations - the simultaneity - of living systems.
-The isomorphisms or homologies in seemingly unrelated systems are relations, physically non-locatable.
-The description of living systems requires a hierarchy of abstractions, logical types, or frames within frames to represent wholes within wholes.
-Any theory -including systems theory - is incomplete.
Coxey's Army, an event that was repeated throughout the book, which I think McElroy used as a device in place of time in his book.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coxey...
Tom LeClair mentioned meteorologist Edward Norton Lorenz's work, famous for coining the term "butterfly effect." Lorenz is from Connecticut, made me think of meteorologist of the east and his "new weather".http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_N...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfl...
Sorry, I meant the Hermit meteorologist of New York. And Lorenz's name was mentioned in the book. There was also a quote by Wittgenstein embeded in the birthing scene.
More interesting information on time, a dissertation and a blog on the dissertation. You can download the dissertation. Sign up is free and you don't have to be associated with an educational institution.A FRACTAL TOPOLOGY OF TIME: IMPLICATIONS FOR CONSCIOUSNESS AND COSMOLOGY
Fractals and Time: Not as Fluffy as You Think
Kerri Welch's abstract for her dissertation is really interesting. I think it relates to what McElroy is trying to do with time in his book.This dissertation applies Susie Vrobel and Laurent Nottale’s fractal models of time to understanding our subjective experience of time, deepening the interface of quantum mechanics and subjectivity developed by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff. I first outline Penrose’s Objective Reduction (OR) version of quantum wave function collapse, and then the biological connection to microscopic brain structures and subjective states that Hameroff developed from Penrose’s theory. In the next section, I outline Nottale’s theory of scale relativity and fractal spacetime, covering his treatments of non-fractal classical time emerging from quantum, fractal, and reversible time. I then build on Vrobel’s model to identify specific properties of fractals, explore how they might model our subjective experience of time, and interface with the theories of Nottale and Penrose. At the confluence of these theories, I suggest aligning time with fractal scale. In this case, the data of the timeless present moment, like the fractal pattern, is condensed and replicated through memories, creating the fractal dimension, or temporal density, of the subjective passage of time. Thus, temporal flow unfurls from, and nests within, the timeless present. Finally, I consider the implications for the human relationship with time.
Ho, ho, ho! This so relates to McElroy's themes. In Welch's Theoretical Perspectives:I approach the subject of time, as a woman, from a feminist perspective, which, I argue, implies the use of an interdisciplinary methodology from which an integral methodology is a natural extension. The following paragraphs expand on how these play out in this dissertation.
There are two main ideas, well articulated within feminist theory that I employ in this dissertation. First, feminist perspectives acknowledge the inherent value, equality, and difference of all subjects, their diverse ways of knowing, and the multiple realities described therein. Secondly, feminist perspectives recognize the continuity between the observing subject, the observed object, and the audience of the observation. These holistic perspectives are common in the humanities, but not in scientific descriptions of reality. This second approach is essential for the study of time. The fact that time is simultaneously a phenomenon of, and fundamental to, our consciousness and cosmos requires that we recognize that any description of time must also include a description of ourselves. This is not an easy goal, but an important one to keep in our line of sight.
I'm not sure where to drop this -- maybe a group leader / moderator can put this in a better place for the discussion group if there is one -- so here goes: a recording of McElroy reading earlier this month on my website:http://bibliomanic.com/2012/11/12/aud...
Comments are welcome. I hope this gets shared around and that you enjoy. There are more Web links to McElroy in conversation and recordings of him reading here (see AUDIO section):
http://bibliomanic.com/2012/09/29/a-j...
Best regards,
Jacob Siefring
This article on long books might be of interest to some of y'all: http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2012fa...
or not.
This is not about W&M, but related to his upcoming book on water. These are all the articles I could find on the web that he has written on water.Joseph McElroy's articles on water:
Water Work
Wetland Reflections
Water on Us
Aloha -- could you also post those links in the thread for his Water book :: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1... I may already have linked them there, but no matter. Can't have enough links....
An ugly page which appears to be an old-school internet thing/discussion but which includes lots of links, some perhaps new to you ; and cool that folks not-here also are discussing Prince McElroy :: http://www.metafilter.com/122519/Jose... See what you can find. Feel yourself free to post here too what you find there of interest maybe to the rest of us. Thanks.
Thanks to Dalkey Archive on goodreads for the following ---An interview with Joe, "Sentences Are Like Home for Me, Even a Wilderness: Interview with Joseph McElroy" by Jason DeYoung at Numéro Cinq :: http://numerocinqmagazine.com/2013/12...
'Yeats, the “fascination of what’s difficult” —Orwell, the overcoming of something difficult in writing, hence a density. Someone says “difficult” —of art—but “difficult” is never spelled out, it’s conveniently left indefinite, it’s never voiced as a word that refers to a clear idea or standard, though it pretends to in readers’ mouths. What are we willing to look for in other people? Intricacies of courage.'
Found a book that discusses experimental fiction with Joseph McElroy being one of the authors discussed.The Body of Writing: An Erotics of Contemporary American Fiction
It's available in CD-Rom also.
Interview with Joe in the Golden Handcuff's Review #19, Fall-Winter 2014-15. http://www.goldenhandcuffsreview.com/...Their #14 had a bunch of Joe stuff in it ::
http://www.goldenhandcuffsreview.com/...
Thanks to bibliomanic for the heads up ::
http://bibliomanic.com/interview-with... Where you'll find more good Joe links.
Joseph McElroy, "Plea" (short story), in Black Clock No. 19, 2014, pp. 77-83.
Terry wrote: "Joseph McElroy, "Plea" (short story), in Black Clock No. 19, 2014, pp. 77-83."Thanks! Website still lists #18 as current issue. Do you know when #19 is available?
http://blackclock.org/issues/2014/iss...
I suspect it can be ordered now, somewhere the website describes the theme (madness) & other contributors (Lynne Tillman...)
McElroy & Robbe-Grillet! Excellent.
Friend and McElroyite Mark dug up this assemblage of essays on McElroy's work which are online available ::https://www.reddit.com/r/JosephMcElro...
Thanks Mark! And thanks to whoever "limited_inc" is!
Joe informs us ;: there will be 3 essays in the December Golden Handcuffs Review on the 3rd edition of W&M, one of which is Mike Heppner's "Fifty Shades of Joseph McElroy." This should be issue #26 and I hope someone will tap us collectively on the shoulder when it becomes available for order.
http://goldenhandcuffsreview.com/
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Joe informs us ;: there will be 3 essays in the December Golden Handcuffs Review on the 3rd edition of W&M, one of which is Mike Heppner's "Fifty Shades of Joseph McElroy." ."This issue now available. The Heppner essay is only in the print edition ; and its the only McElroy essay I'm seeing.
http://goldenhandcuffsreview.com/gh26...
I don't think this book has been mentioned earlier, but I'm finding it a good source of background material on the Navajo mythology explored in W&M:The Main Stalk, A Synthesis of Navajo Philosophy by John R. Farella (1984) University of Arizona Press.
One example, excerpt from page 27:
"A second feature that is given as a characteristic of diyinii is their sensory superiority or excellence. They are often talked about as being able to see 'great distances,' a statement that refers to temporal as well as spatial distance... often informed of the future by nilch'i biyazhi (a possible gloss is 'little wind' or 'child wind') who is near or at their ears... ability to 'see' the future... "
Michael wrote: "I don't think this book has been mentioned earlier, but I'm finding it a good source of background material on the Navajo mythology explored in W&M:The Main Stalk, A Synthesis of Navajo Philosoph..."
Interesting! Thanks for sharing, Michael.
Women and Men
Books mentioned in this topic
The Body of Writing: An Erotics of Contemporary American Fiction (other topics)The Art of Excess: Mastery in Contemporary American Fiction (other topics)
General System Theory: Foundations, Development, Applications (other topics)
Introduction to Meteorology (other topics)
Night Soul and Other Stories (other topics)
More...
This one from the time of Actress, 2003, The Village Voice:
"The Complications--Joseph McElroy's Uncompromising Positions" By Andrew Essex, Jun 3, 2003
http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-06-0...