Women and Men discussion
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Nathan "N.R.", James Mayn
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Sep 19, 2012 10:48AM
I'll be digging up some links and other resources which might be helpful for reading and understanding Women & Men. My intention is to keep these items relevant to this novel and not let things sprawl too far into the rest of his ouevre.
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goodreads Friend Paul Gleason has written an excellent piece on W&M and DeLillo's Underworld:History as Accretion and Excavation
http://www.electronicbookreview.com/t...
The McElroy homepage, which contains some of his shorter works, if you can figure out how to navigate it:http://www.josephmcelroy.com/
The chapter which was cut from Women and Men:
Preparations for Search
I've not read it yet.
One of the few critical volumes:
Joseph McElroy
Includes four essays on W&M.
For the audacious who'd like some likely unrelated related material regarding the meteorological material in W&M:From Burton's Anatomy of Melancholy, Second Partition, Memb. III, "Air rectified. With a digression of the Air."
Possibly Aristotle's Meteorology.
And if you can find a copy of Small Is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered, Joe says this on the copyright page:
"In the writing of this book I have meditated often upon Small Is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered (Perennial Library, Harper & Row, 1975) and more particularly upon his phrase 'an articulated structure that can cope with a multiplicity of small-scale units.'"
Small Is Beautiful is online at: http://www.ee.iitb.ac.in/student/~pda...I glanced at it, couldn't really get a grip on it. And he throws out statements like:
"First of all, there is language. Each word is an idea. If the language which seeps into us during our Dark Ages is English, our mind is thereby furnished by a set of ideas which is significantly different from the set represented by Chinese, Russian, German, or even American. Next to words, there are the rules of putting them together: grammar, another bundle of ideas, the study of which has fascinated some modem philosophers to such an extent that they thought they could reduce the whole of philosophy to a study of grammar".
I have no intention of starting a Sapir-Whorf war here but this is crazy talk. And the *whole* of philosophy to a study of grammar? Not even Chomsky!
Nick wrote: "For those wishing to read Preparations for Search and who do not mind ebooks, it can be purchased from Dzanc Books here."If you do not mind ebooks, the whole book Women and Men is here: https://docs.google.com/open?id=0BzA0...
B0nnie wrote: "I have no intention of starting a Sapir-Whorf war here but this is crazy talk. And the *whole* of philosophy to a study of grammar? Not even Chomsky! "Sapir-Whorf weren't philosophers. But there was a significant school of analytic, 20th century philosophy which believed that all philosophical problems could be reduced to a question of grammar. I won't blame Wittgenstein for it, but his is related. Definitely not Chomsky; he was a linguist and his philosophical contributions had to do with the philosophy of mind. The 20th century was, after all, the century of the philosophy of language, on the continental side as well.
Other than McElroy's favorite quote about articulated structures, I don't know much about Schumacher. Anything. And thanks for the Small document, B0nnie.
Some excellent footage of McElroy discussing fiction and publishing in the modern age:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeC7D...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeC7D...
Sean wrote: "Some excellent footage of McElroy discussing fiction and publishing in the modern age:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBeC7D..."
Video's not working for me this morning. Is this from the reading tour in early 2011 for Night Soul? With really low audio and middling video quality?
Audio of "Forms of Crisis: Harry Mathews & Joseph McElroy (with Obstruction)":
http://canopycanopycanopy.com/podcast...
I bookmarked it but I believe I've not returned yet to listen to it. This "Harry Mathews" guy is schleiching onto my radar lately.
Mathews sounds familiar as a George Perec translator. Didnt Dalkey publish some of his novels too? or am I mistaken now? That should be the one - hopefully, not that there are two authors with the same name lol would be embarassing.
http://www.dalkeyarchive.com/search/?...
Hay Nathan thanks so much of that link, super excited to give McElroy/Mathews a listen...
Vilma wrote: "Mathews sounds familiar as a George Perec translator. Didnt Dalkey publish some of his novels too? or am I mistaken now? "That should be him, yep. McElroy's got an essay on him in an issue of RoCF:
"Harry Mathews' Fiction: A Map of Masks."
Review of Contemporary Fiction 7.3 (Fall 1987): 84-90.
http://www.dalkeyarchive.com/book/?GC...
Goodreads credits him with a few Oulipo translations, including Perec's Ellis Island:
http://www.goodreads.com/author/list/...
I haven't gotten many author recommendations from McElroy, so I think I'll have to look into Mr Matthews before too long.
The Journalist and 20 Lines a Day have already found their way into my Amazon wishbasket. GRRR! These two are the most promising I think, the rest not so much - especially not his book about masturbation lol
Vilma wrote: "especially not his book about masturbation lol "Now, which one is that? Sounds like required reading for folks who read books which others accuse of being "masturbatory" and "self-indulgent."
Singular Pleasures"The subject of this unique book of short fiction is masturbation, a practice both universal and virtually taboo. In sixty-one vignettes, Mathews records the imaginative varieties of this solitary activity in prose that is playful, intimate, urgent.."
I have nothing against masturbation or self-indulgence, but I dont have to read about it, not exactly.
the GR description says it even has illustrations LOL makes me wonder rofl
Geoff wrote: "Hay Nathan thanks so much of that link, super excited to give McElroy/Mathews a listen..."I recall now that I haven't listened to this because the audio is atrocious.
Big thanks to Nathan and everyone else on this thread contributing. This is an awesome amount of material to use for studying. I'll make sure to get through all these links by the time reading rolls around.
"And years later Jim found what he wanted to connect the habit to–the movements or motions you felt overall, in an apartment house, that were less from people doing things than from what was left of them after they went out to work or away on business or vacation, athough it might be the elevator or the edifice responding to the wake of a truck passing in the street."Wow, that is beautiful. I may have to post quotes in the threads as I go along.
Stephen M wrote: "Wow, that is beautiful. I may have to post quotes in the threads as I go along. "Please do.
Would you provide page numbers?
A short essay regarding the question of reading McElroy's novels, "The Courage of Joseph McElroy," by Mike Heppner (link to pdf):http://www.goldenhandcuffsreview.com/...
"I see Proust, I see James, but not Coover or Barth."
Following up on the Heppner article (which is fantastic), one musical comparison made is with Varese. Here a few pieces for purposes of comparing with McElroy's own prose rhythms, "The rhythm is Varese, not Johann Strauss."Ionisation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9mg4K...
Poème électronique
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7AIiT...
Hyperprism
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGFLUe...
And because you can't get enough:
http://www.youtube.com/results?search...
And because Frank is a huge Varese fan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQt2in...
"Joseph McElroy is nineteen feet tall and can crush bombproof limousines with his biceps. He will live to be four hundred and thirty-five."Ha, best line ever.
And I'm just a wee bit skeptical about the "unafraid of abstractions" part of his assessment. I think it's really difficult to pull off effective writing with too many abstractions, because I've seen it fall flat too often. I'm not doubting Mr. McElroy's abilities at all, but just a small worry.
Stephen M wrote: "And I'm just a wee bit skeptical about the "unafraid of abstractions" part of his assessment. I think it's really difficult to pull off effective writing with too many abstractions, because I've se..."What he calls "abstractions" is perhaps what I call McElroy's "thinking." McElroy says that his writing is thinking. If thinking is a process, and an incomplete process at that, then it will be underway and perhaps feel "abstract" or not solid; its object has not yet formed. What counts as concrete and what counts as abstract is a question which makes McElroy's fiction often rather obtuse, but it's a question which he poses in the very writing of his fiction. Heppner's remarks about abstraction ought to be contrasted and counter-balanced with his comments about McElroy's realism.
Yeah, that's probably a useful distinction to make. There's a difference between the type of abstractions as a result of incomplete, fractured thinking (at times IJ) and just shitty writing, which I see way too much of from my peers. The kind of "my struggle is a pale color of disappointment" vague, wishy-washy, meaningless crapola.Although, what I just wrote is not the worst it gets.
Stephen M wrote: "Although, what I just wrote is not the worst it gets. "I don't think there's any of that. The presence of objects may appear to be abstract and incomplete, but the presentation of the experience of consciousness is concrete in the sense in which experience is rendered concretely in the Benji chapter of Sound and Fury. What you might want to watch for is the (possible) dearth of metaphor and simile in W&M (just an hypothesis).
I'll definitely keep an eye out. I will probably read the book with a pad and take notes. I'd like to contribute something to the scholarship of the book, considering how little there is out there for it.
Stephen M wrote: "I'll definitely keep an eye out. I will probably read the book with a pad and take notes. I'd like to contribute something to the scholarship of the book, considering how little there is out there ..."If you can figure out how do create some kind of precis or annotations or readers' guide for those Breather sections I think you'll have some serious dissertation materials.
Or just diagram some of those sentences.
That'd be great; a few diagrams may be in order. I think I'm one of the few people who gets excited when finding books that are potential thesis material.
In the recently posted McElroy biblio (message #47) is noted Heidegger's piece "Building Dwelling Thinking." A full text:http://mysite.pratt.edu/~arch543p/rea...
There is clearly some Heidegger in the background of W&M, not explicit, but I know McElroy has read a fair amount of philosophy (economics too), only that I don't know which. The Heidegger I always hear echoed in the repeated phrases about "articulated structures" which to me is the seminal moment of Heidegger's description of Dasein (the human being).
Jonathan wrote: "By the way I am not surprised in the least to find Brodkey on the list. Maybe we should read the much maligned but probably actually amazing RUNAWAY SOUL next year."I've not read word one from Brodkey, but I think I've already dedicated myself to reading every one of his works. How's that for reckless reading habits?
Jonathan wrote: "I may begin to read some more of the McElroy stories alongside W&M as soon as I finish this beast of a Vollmann."I find that I've gotta get this White Whale wrapped up before I can expect my attention to turn to anything else of consequence. Another few days before W&M gets an earnest beginning with a breather there.
Also of some interest to readers in this group: at Bibliomanic, there is * * a Web Bibliography (http://wp.me/p2tl0C-bR); and
* * an appreciation with McElroy photo & a list of 10 or so his FANTASTIC opening lines (http://wp.me/p2tl0C-by).
Happy reading to those discovering this American genius!
There's also a Kindle version on Amazon for $7.69. I'm getting that one.http://www.amazon.com/Preparations-fo...
Nick wrote: "If anyone is interested in a print version of Preparations for Search, the chapter cut from Women and Men there are five copies available on AbeBooks."Someone snagged 'em quick. Only one there at the moment.
Someone has been working on the Women & Men wikipedia entry:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_an...
Nick wrote: "Nathan "N.R." wrote: "Someone has been working on the Women & Men wikipedia entry:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_an..."
I saw that earlier. Quite a bit of information has been added."
Thank you. I stayed up all night to do that.
Aloha wrote: "Thank you. I stayed up all night to do that. "As much as I find it valuable for there to be coherent entries for McElroy's work on wikipedia, it would pain me to think that Aloha's McElroy efforts are being spent outside the confines of our goodreads group. But thank you all the same!
I'm just getting started, Nathan. That's nothing.
I'm thinking about it. I have duct tape and a full bath tub.
Here are the Extra Chapters that were omitted from the original published book. Password: Nathan
In honor of Nathan who brought this book to our attention.
*ahem* What were the chapters in Night Soul and Other Stories that was omitted in Women and Men? You told me, Nathan, somewhere, but it's not in this thread. Thank you.
Aloha wrote: "Here are the Extra Chapters that were omitted from the original published book. "For those who care, Preparation for Search was apparently revised for its Dzanc publication in 2010 (according to the McElroy wikipedia entry.) Which is to say, when you spend that $50 for Prep for Search on abebooks, it'll be an older, outdated text. But I don't know what "revised" means in this situation.
And if I could only get your file unzipped, Aloha. No one's asked me for the pw, but maybe I'm just dense. Thanksthanks.
I'll reupload without the password, Nathan. Ha! It won't open for the man in which the PW was named for.
Aloha wrote: "Here it is:Extra Chapters No Password"
Thnksthnks. you can remove that one if you need to. I got it. I was once more slick with this thing, but my mac's made me computer not-savvy.
Women and Men
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Night Soul and Other Stories (other topics)
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