Women and Men discussion
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Women and Men
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Hi there! I'm a little unsure as of when i first heard about McElroy, but since I'm a follower of everything Wallace at thehowlingfantods.com, the essay mentioned above regarding the first draft of Infinite Jest might be it. Reading IJ about ten years ago or so turned me on to ridicoulsly huge and dense novels and from here I graduated to Pynchon and Vollmann, both giving me some of my greatest and most beautiful reading experiences. Having read a lot of the other book of the list from the essay, McElroy seemed the perfect new fix. Have only read A Smugglers Bible previously, which was interesting, but uneven. The last chapter was stellar though, and made me take my chances with the big one. Am currently on page 75 and not disspointed!
Herb wrote: "The first edition of W&M was reviewed in several very visible publications and probably sold through its original printing. "Indeed. I was a little surprised to find that the copy I purchased was a second printing. But my impression is that a lot of those copies sold have went years unread.
I'm interested in some of the original reviews of W&M. The only one I've found on-line is the "Boy Doesn't Meet Girl" piece from NYT. http://www.nytimes.com/1987/04/12/boo...
Do you happen to have bibliographic citations for any of those early reviews? Steven Moore put together a bibliography 20 years ago, and I'd like to see us cobble together some updates. Any help would be thanked.
McElroy continues to write and get published.
And in this book industry that counts as a small miracle. I've got a big tbr stack right now, but I'm interested in some of those authors whose talent you value but who have dropped by the wayside. Other than McElroy, I've been reading D. Keith Mano who also seems to have totally dropped off the map, with the exception of Dalkey's issue of Take Five.
There's no guarantee that the relative status of any artist will grow or diminish over time. Lots of good, and bad, stuff remains in the public consciousness and lots of good, and bad, stuff ends up sleeping with the fishes.
Only to say that readerships like the readerships here in this corner of goodreads have a lot of voice on this issue.
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "obfuscations wrote: "I read nonfiction/review McElroy over the years in NYRB with no awareness of his novels."I checked the NYRB website for the McElroy stuff but they're not very friendly to fol..."
There must be a mix-up here as there are no articles by McElroy on the NYRB archive. There is a letter with an interesting list of co-signees.
To the Editors:
We the undersigned express grave concern over the growing number of political arrests made in Poland during the past weeks following the arrest of Mr. Zbigniew Bujak, the underground leader of Solidarity. We call for the release of all political prisoners; in particular, we ask for the release of Dr. Zbigniew Lewicki, Head of the American Literature Department of Warsaw University, an eminent scholar and passionate advocate of American letters—a friend, acquaintance and colleague to many of us.
Walter Abish, Edward Albee, John Ashbery, Stanislaw Baranczak, John Barth, Donald Barthelme, Saul Bellow, Joseph Brodsky, Jerome Charyn, Robert Coover, Robert Creeley, Marcus Cunliffe, Stephen Dixon, E.L. Doctorow, Raymond Federman, Leslie Fiedler, William Gaddis, William Gass, Allen Ginsberg, Janusz Glowacki, Sinda Gregory, Ihab Hassan, Richard Howard, Irving Howe, John Irving, Harold Jaffe, Frederick R. Karl, Ken Kesey, Jerome Klinkowitz, Larry McCaffery, Joseph McElroy, Norman Mailer, Clarence Major, Harry Mathews, Peter Matthiessen, Leonard Michaels, Arthur Miller, Bradford Morrow, Joyce Carol Oates, Maggie Paley, Walker Percy, Robert Pinsky, Philip Roth, Isaac Bashevis Singer, Susan Sontag, Michael Stephens, Rose Styron, William Styron, Ronald Sukenick, Calvin Tomkins, Frederic Tuten, Kurt Vonnegut, Anne Waldman, Paul West.
I might as well come clean here and make my terrible confession which is that I used to own a copy of W&M (the Dalkey edition), but having tried to read it, and having found it very difficult to engage with the novel, I sold it. Of course when, several months ago, I asked the bookshop if they still had it, I was told that it had been sold. I would like to give it another try even though the thought of page after page of passages such as:
"...we like her for herself if there were time, and not just for her tapeworm, its lighted path, thoughtlike through embedded night, its own tunnel or "wormhole" (to be quite blunt as the obstacle out its far end) Obstacle? But why would the tapeworm track take us anywhere if it is in the diva's beloved body? Is there an answer for us as we seek another pause?"
is a little daunting. I'm able to quote that passage because it is quoted in Harry Mathews' very enthusiastic review of the book, which is included in his collection The Case of the Persevering Maltese: Collected Essays.
LMAO! This should be an interesting read. I wonder how it compares to Story of the Eye. There was a lot of pissing in that one. I need to go back to it just because it was so bizarre.Declan wrote: ""...we like her for herself if there were time, and not just for her tapeworm."
Don't ask me about NYC publications, but from his homepage:http://www.josephmcelroy.com/writings/2/
He's got stuff in New York Times Book Review and The New York Times Magazine and Village Voice.
NYTBR is mostly from the early '70's:
http://www.josephmcelroy.com/writings/3/
Jonathan wrote: "I can't NOT READ W&M. It's called me, in a way. "Right you are. We've got a lot of smart readers here and determined readers. I have no doubt that we will collectively comprehend at least 61% of this novel. As I return to W&M and having just reread Paul's essay I am further convinced that this novel can only properly be read by a community of readers, not as isolated monads. It was written for "us angels."
Nathan or Stephen, would you make a section for member's reviews and a discussion of them. When I'm ready to post my review, I'll put the link in there. Thanks!
Oh, missed that. Thanks, Nathan.
Hello everyone,First of all, thank you to Nathan for starting and moderating this group--it brings me great pleasure to see others excited about McElroy.
I first encountered McElroy through (if my memory serves me well) reading some essays by William H. Gass. I read "A Smuggler's Bible" a little bit ago--I was totally blown away. I started "W&M" a couple of nights ago. Though I'm only about 75 pages in, I can already say that, while his prose are difficult (perhaps among the most complex I have ever read--with his utilization of first, second, and third person perspective; not to mention his shifting from present to past tense on a whim), the book is a wonderfully enjoyable read. My first impression is that the novel is quite readable, so long as the reader heeds the thematic shifts indicated by the chapter titles, i.e. use the tabel of contents as a road map.
Anyways, those are my initial thoughts; glad to be a part of this group!
Justin wrote: "Anyways, those are my initial thoughts; glad to be a part of this group! "Welcome, Justin. Glad to hear that you've found a way to BREATH! I look forward to your further thoughts on W&M. Please feel yourself free'd to contribute to the W&M chapter threads. We've got several W&M veterans around here who'd seem eager to return to some discussions. And we have others anticipating reading who'll no doubt benefit from your contributions.
In case we haven't made enough noise yet, McElroy's new novel Cannonball is being published next month along with a paperback of Ancient History.
Nathan "N.R." wrote: "In case we haven't made enough noise yet, McElroy's new novel Cannonball is being published next month along with a paperback of Ancient History."I am indeed aware, though thanks for making sure. Actually, I don't know if this has been discussed/brought to light yet, but the "Contact" section on McElroy's website (found here: http://www.josephmcelroy.com/contact) goes directly to his personal email address. I asked a quick question on there a few months ago, and he personally responded, including a promo flyer for Cannonball. Just thought I'd pass that along to you fellow McElroy fans.
Since Freddy is making me interested in looking at W&M again, I forwarded the email with the eBook attached to myself to look at while enjoying the beach today. My friend said that a lot of high-brow people were talking about this book. I have to go look in the mirror to see how high my brows are.
Aloha wrote: "Since Freddy is making me interested in looking at W&M again, I forwarded the email with the eBook attached to myself to look at while enjoying the beach today. My friend said that a lot of high-..."
Where did you come acrossan ebook of Women and Men?
Where did you come acrossan ebook of Women and Men?
Just found a copy online for just shy of £50 and did the old 'one-click' faster than you could shake a 1000+ page hardback. It should, all things going well, be waiting for me upon my return from holiday in mid-august and be started as soon as is humanly possible.
Yum Yum Yum
Lisa wrote: "Hello to the group! I got my hardback copy of Women and Men by mail two weeks ago and I just started reading it. I'm currently lost for words.. the writing is beautiful. I m reading it really slow ..."Excellent and welcome.
May I ask what kind of $$$ you shell'd out for this one?
Nils wrote: "Then you arrive at that first BREATHERS chapter and it's like reading stream-of-consciousness for the first time again:"I'm certainly not bright enough to make this claim ; but there is the thing you point to here about the BREATHERS which makes me think of them as perhaps one of the more profoundly new things in narrative technique to have emerged since the s-o-c. I can't say that anything like their equivalent found elsewhere occurs to me at the moment. Even as rough-housed as I was by the sentences in Actress in the House they weren't but a shadow of those BREATHERS. [I'd say too that they must be structured in a manner uniquely built upon English syntax, even as Proust's sentences seem to me to be entirely French]
I first heard of McElroy through Lookout Cartridge being on the Larry McCaffery list. I then just read online about this being his most ambitious effort.Reading Women and Men is like being caught in layers of crosshatched code.
Hello All,I am here at the kind invite of NRG (my new nickname for Nathan "N.R." Gaddis; pronounced 'energy'). I am embarking on reading every McElroy book this year. I am two books in: A Smuggler's Bible and The Letter Left to Me. McElroy is a name that I've known about for years. I've had Cartridge on a shelf for a long time and finally dedicated myself to the plunge. Being an anal retentive, I didn't want to start until I owned everything possible in hardcover (so Night Soul and Cannonball are in pb).
I don't have the anticipation of any book being 'easy' or fixed-in-place. I appreciate total immersion in something with the largesse of Women and Men. Thus, I will read a McElroy book this year, knock out a few quick novels in between, and then read another. I have found this to be the best method to avoid a single author's oeuvre becoming a giant blur. A sort of cleansing process.
A note on A Smuggler's Bible: my god, what an exceptional debut. I argue that it is more assured that V., despite my love for everything Pynchon and V.'s venerated status in my own pantheon.
About the availability of McElroy I've read herein: I paid out of my nose for quite a bit of it. W&M was $115, Hind's $70, Plus $80, etc. So far, I couldn't be happier with the investment and I picked up a signed copy of Actress to boot.
I hope you all are well and as happy as allowed by your regional government.
Cody
Cody wrote: "I am here at the kind invite of NRG (my new nickname for Nathan "N.R." Gaddis; pronounced 'energy'). ."Sounds like the name of a gas company. I'm sure it will be found appropriate. ; )
But seriously, happy reading! I've got Cartridge lined up as my next McElroy, maybe about the time you get there too. And I'm anticipating your response to Plus ; definitely on my Top Five Brainbreakers. [And I think I agree re: V. v. Smuggler's]
Hello!I just got a fellow GR member to sell me the book for $77 CDN (including shipping).
I have not read anything by McElroy, except for starting and stopping Lookout, Cartridge, because it was a pdf, and reading that on an ereader was proving very difficult.
I am attracted to McElroy because he seems to belong to the experimental po-mo category. However, I must say that, although this is my favourite literary category, I don't love everything that is generally lumped here.
For instance, I absolutely love the following:
Gravity's Rainbow
One Hundred Years of Solitude
Blood Meridian; Suttree
Mrs. Dalloway
Lolita; Pale Fire
Underworld
The Rifles; Fathers and Crows
American Psycho
Catch-22
Under the Volcano
Breakfast of Champions
Naked Lunch
A Heartbreaking Work of Staggering Genius
I am very impressed by:
The Public Burning
On the Road
The Cannibal
Crash
Take It Or Leave It
A Clockwork Orange
Tropic of Cancer
Going Native
Ulysses
But have been disappointed by:
Swann's Way
The New York Trilogy
Dhalgren (DAMN YOU!!)
The Sot-Weed Factor
Omensetter's Luck (perhaps I'll re-read you)
Infinite Jest
Sixty Stories by Barthelme
2666
Labyrinths
OK, so take a look at that list. How is it that I love Gravity's Rainbow, but only so-so like Infinite Jest? Why am I not fawning over Sot-weed Factor? 2666?
I am worried that the same will apply to McElroy (although from what I read of Lookout Cartridge, I don't think so). And Gaddis, still haven't read him.
I know there is an expectation to really like some of these behemoths (in both scope and page number), but ultimately I have to be honest with myself with when I really do like something, and when I can see that it's experimental and cool...but ultimately doesn't touch me on a deep level.
Anyways, here's hoping :D
Alexander wrote: "Hello!I just got a fellow GR member to sell me the book for $77 CDN (including shipping).
I have not read anything by McElroy, except for starting and stopping Lookout, Cartridge, because it was a..."
There's really nothing like W&M (as is the case with many you've listed). Here's hoping it strikes your cord.
got my copy! it's gorgeous! 2017!!
Thanks to Dzanc, I've read it now. I hope I'm not the only one. It never left the house and I kept it open on the same pillow on a little table I put by the bed like a shrine specifically for the purpose of keeping book and pillow safe together. Despite such care, over the 3 summer months it got (lightly!) rained on and I spilled water on it. The book has its own weather cell. I'm working up a scanty impressionistic response in lieu of a proper review; there are several of the latter available and their sufficiency exempts me from even attempting. I finished it over a month ago, jotted some notes, lost them, and in my frustration would not directly return to thinking about writing about the novel itself or my experience of reading it. But something has come of the stewing, if only an altered, grateful reader. I unearthed McElroy thanks to Tom LeClair. By reading W&M I've completed the systext. Apprehending that much more of the senselessness of the 20th century through the perspective of America's daring literary lodestars does not fill me with hope for the 21st, but these would not be our best writers if they laid out the lure of A Better Tomorrow like you could find it at walmart. At least in these horrible, horrible times there's great art, which is no comfort except the cold consolation of pursuing some truth in our experience. W&M does just that. And more. Ever more.
Women and Men
Books mentioned in this topic
Story of the Eye (other topics)Case of the Persevering Maltese: Collected Essays (other topics)
You Bright and Risen Angels (other topics)
The Gold Bug Variations (other topics)
Letters (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Mark Z. Danielewski (other topics)Douglas R. Hofstadter (other topics)
I understand your point, Nathan, but all I really did in this case was to get older and maintain an interest in something that you care about now. Some of the authors, poets, composers, film makers, etc that I loved thirty years ago are still very much in the world, but MANY more have fallen by the wayside and/or nearly disappeared from the culture.
It's true that McElroy isn't as well known as Pynchon or Gaddis. But it's not as if the first edition of Women & Men was pulped after selling only a dozen copies in the first month. If it had been, you probably wouldn't know about the book now. The first edition of W&M was reviewed in several very visible publications and probably sold through its original printing. The book has subsequently been the subject of articles that have been published in respectable journals and McElroy continues to write a nd get published. OCLC lists 440 copies of the book in libraries around the world. That's not a smash hit, mega-bestseller number, but it's not nothing either.
20-30 years from now there MAY be younger readers who will think it's a big deal that you read early copies of books by Danielewski, De La Pava, Vollman, or Walace. Or maybe not. There's no guarantee that the relative status of any artist will grow or diminish over time. Lots of good, and bad, stuff remains in the public consciousness and lots of good, and bad, stuff ends up sleeping with the fishes.