A Storm of Swords
discussion
The red wedding what are your thoughts?
Nobody deserves the kind of death Robb and his bannermen got. But then again, Robb made some bad decisions against some very bad men, we have to admit the Freys were pretty sick from the start, I just never thought they could still go pretty low from were they were already standing at.
I really enjoyed the red wedding part. Both Robb and Caitlyn were the most boring characters in the book in my opinion. Caitlyn was simply getting on my nerves with her constant nagging about the well being of her children as if they couldn't grow up on their own. Her chapters were simply tedious and slow to read. The thing I like the most about the scene though was the song part, the rains of castemere truly made this part of the book shine I think.
I think the RW is what makes ASOS the best book in the series and one of the best fantasy novels. I agree that Robb-Catelyn were boring and not so important for the story so it was normal for them to die but I kinda disliked the whole betrayal thing. I understand the murder of Robb and his staff but to assasinate thousands of soldiers is too much. I mean it's not realistic but Martin loves to slay "good guys" by the thousands even when it's not realistic. He's made the bad guys slaughter them 2 more times at Winterfel and King's Landing(though at KL it was the host of Stannis). And they came out of nowhere and caught the good guys unaware. Yeah...right. 1 time is fine as a twist but 3 times?!?
How anyone can enjoy reading the Red Wedding is beyond me. Oh well, doesn't matter if you hate Catelyn or not, her story is not done yet he he he
I did not see that one coming.
I had a sense of foreboding before the RW, which was a punch in the gut to me as well. No one deserves such a fate. The rules of hospitality are extremely vital. How could anyone feel safe under a roof if there were no hospitality laws? I think the Freys will be very severely punished by all sides, no matter what, to set an example. I'd favor the execution of all Freys who were in the castle at the time, and the razing of both castles (won't happen).
We kinda have hospitality rules today, i.e. no guns in schools and movie theaters, no shooting cops, etc. Those hospitality rules are being broken today. Look at the results. This is just an example to illustrate the importance of hospitality rules.
First time I read it, I wasn't sure what I was reading, (english is no my first language), I had to read the paragraph twice and then I was in shock, it hit pretty hard, I can't believe it, I actually stop reading it for 3 days because I cannot read more tradegy.Eventually I fill my heart with hatred and vengeance, and the other Starks, included the walking dead one, will kill the Freys (at least I hope so)
it was waaay too harsh for Rob, it was nice to see that one of the characters that wasn't a scheming butt was doing nicely.. I knew eventually, in that world, he was going to get his throat cut though. It was fun rooting for him while he was alive. Maybe it is for the better since he was such a flat character and his death made room to expand on characters like Jaime and it gave Catlin more dimension.
The Red Wedding was harsh, indeed, but it had to be done. Robb's desperate attempt to win the war was pointless and his story line had to be cut short. I believe there is a significance with this event to that night where Stannis mentioned the name of 'three pretender kings' as he threw three leeches into the fire. (I can't recall exactly the details but it was a scene with Melisandre.) Any avid reader would agree that magic or sorcery has been proven to be of use in the entire series. It continues to unfold and flourish more and more as you progress in the series.
Be that as it may, the Frey's actions could've been influenced by the Lannisters. Heck, it was probably, recalling Tywin mentioning something about winning wars with pen and paper. I may be mistaken, as I can't recall clearly. (It's been months since I finished the fifth book. And I haven't reread any of the books yet.)
Robb's death was horrifying (even though it had been spoiled for me, so I knew it was coming). Initially, I thought it was such a waste – of a young life in terms of the story, and of a promising story in meta terms. But after finishing the book, and getting some perspective on the events that led up to the Red Wedding, I think that Robb's death makes sense, and was anything but a waste. Robb soared to sudden popularity at the end of AGoT, when his bannermen, in a wave of hatred against the Lannisters, declared him King of the North. But hatred can fuel people's actions for only so long. The cracks in Robb's new status were visible even in ACoK, as his bannermen and even his family members each had different priorities that didn't match Robb's, and even contradicted each other's: e.g. Catelyn wanted to free Jaime and exchange him for her daughters, whereas Rickard Karstark wanted to kill him in revenge for his sons. Once the repercussions of these and other internal quarrels raised their ugly head at the beginning of ASoS, it was clear (at least on hindsight), that Robb’s star was setting as quickly as it had risen. Robb was a charismatic leader, but he had nothing much more behind him than charisma – i.e. he had no real power. Once some of his bannermen stopped liking him – the Karstarks, Freys and Boltons, that is – they felt no reason to continue being loyal to him. It all goes back to Varys’s riddle in ACoK regarding who holds the power: the man with the sword, the king, the priest, or the rich man? Once the men with the swords stopped believing Robb to be their king, he had no power left.
Robb’s downfall is also an interesting parallel to Ned’s: both of them try to do what they think is right and honourable – marrying Jeyne after sleeping with her, and denouncing Cersei and her children, respectively. But both of them vastly underestimate their opponents and the ramifications of their own actions. Robb’s action insulted the Freys, and one thing Walder Frey will not stand is slights to him and his family. Ned underestimated just how important power is to Cersei and Joffrey, and the lengths they will go to keep it. Their deaths are brought about because they trust the wrong person/people – the Freys and Littlefinger, respectively – even though common sense should have told them that these people were utterly untrustworthy.
Rachel wrote: "Also, Stark men are known for their excess of honor: it's their fatal flaw. I think, in this series, blood Starks are the only characters that actually stay dead...Poor Robb, and poor Ned..."In knew something was up but had to read and reread to make sure I read it correctly. Is surprising but as we all know things happen to good people too. No one has said anything about the direwolf either. I felt for him as well.
I think the Red Wedding was shocking... but not surprising, if you catch my meaning. The event was well foreshadowed, but the impact wasn't any less for the build up. In fact, I'd argue that it gave that portion of the book an Alfred Hitchcock horror/thriller element. Hitchcock said (paraphrasing here) that if a writer puts a bomb under a table where two people are chatting, but doesn't tell the reader, then the reader gets a nasty surprise when the bomb goes off. If the writer does tell the reader about the bomb, then the writer creates suspense while the reader anxiously awaits the explosion.I think the Red Wedding was more suspense than surprise. You felt it coming, and then couldn't turn away when it did.
I think he deserved it. I mean, he is a KING! The KING in the North. A King doesn't need a mother who tells him what to do, a King doesn't negotiate to his subjects, and a King doesn't break his words. By doing so, he is not fit to be a King anymore and therefore deserved to die.
I knew something was going to happen but I didn't think it would be that bad. I had to read it twice before it sunk in.
can't wait. same as Davytron.
I had it spoiled for me, only I didn't know which book it would happen in, so from the beginning of book 2 I was just dreading everything. Robb was my favourite character after Dany and Tyrion.Knowing that he was going to die, I could tell that Martin was hinting heavily at it throughout A Storm of Swords, and that it was only a matter of time.
In some ways I kind of thought he might continue to live through Grey Wind. I'm not quite sure what is going on with the direwolves. It obviously doesn't matter now that he is also dismembered.
The Red Wedding was shocking, although I was pretty sure something was going to happen, I didn't see that coming. The death of Catelyn and Grey Wind was devastating! I had to re-read the whole scene and the afterwards just to get my head around what had happened. Very shocking and upsetting.Further to this scene, I am wondering when Nymeria is going to come back. It's gotta be when Arya really, really needs her, but that story can't be done...right?
Barbara wrote: "The Red Wedding was shocking, although I was pretty sure something was going to happen, I didn't see that coming. The death of Catelyn and Grey Wind was devastating! I had to re-read the whole sc..."That glimpse through Nymeria's eyes in her green dream was almost worse than having nothing at all. I just want her to come back!
I know....I keep waiting for Nymberia's return because I feel it is going to be epic!
I think that Robb deserved it. I hate that his banner-men and Catelyn had to die or become hostages because of it. However, he effectively used the Frey's to gain access to the crossing and that toll, that he agreed to, was to marry any daughter of his choosing,used his troops, made him an accessory, an enemy of the throne when Robb needed him, not the other way around. While the RW was a chicken-shit and craven way to go about it, Robb brought it upon himself. He should have left Jeyne where he found her.
Marina wrote: "I've found the Red Wedding fun as hell to read, and all the more horrible for it. I liked Robb well enough, but not everybody's an Edward IV. He found himself against a more cunning and resourcefu..."
Show me where, in any of the 5 books, it shows that Ned was promised to Ashara Dayne? Also, why would Ashara, the heir to House Dayne, be promised to the second son of House Stark? Didn't happen.
I missed the whole Ashara thing too apparently. I do think it was mentioned earlier in this thread somewhere that it is not in the books, but hinted at outside of them? I'm not sure, I am wondering about that as well. I'm open to it if the author said so in a blog or interview or something.
All I have to say is that I can't wait to see how they do this on TV.
Dionna wrote: "Show me where, in any of the 5 books, it shows that Ned was promised to Ashara Dayne? Also, why would Ashara, the heir to House Dorne, be promised to the second son of House Stark? Didn't happen."Yes it never happened everything is a rumor.
After Ned killed Arthur at the Tower of Joy and went to Starfall to return Dawn, Ashara committed suicide(her body was never found) and when Ned arrive with Jon at Winterfell the rumor started. That Ashara had commited suicide because the fact that her lover that in this case was Ned, killed her brother was too much.
And in book five Barristan remembers how he was in love with her and how she was "dishonored" at the Harrenhall tournament and she "looked to" a Stark. I believe it was Brandon, not Ned who "dishonored" her.
And Ashara was not the heir to House Dorne (there is no House Dorne) She is a Dayne. The ones that rule Dorne are the princes and princesses of House Martell.
Robb didnt deserve what happened to him. BUT, he should've known better than to cross shady old man Frey. Would Ned have done the same as Robb? I don't think so.
August wrote: "Robb didn't deserve what happened to him. BUT, he should've known better than to cross shady old man Frey. Would Ned have done the same as Robb? I don't think so."If the rumors are true Ashara indeed looked for Ned when she got pregnant but Ned rejected her because he was already promised to Catelyn. So, I also think the answer is No. He wouldn't have done the same. Too much honor in that guy D:
Perhaps Robb should have seen this coming, but he still didnt deserve his fate. Walder Frey's become the ultimate dumb shit in the series however if he actually believes no retribution was gonna befall him and his house. Now his sons are hanging and he's next on Lady Stoneheart's sights
Nelson wrote: "Dionna wrote: "Show me where, in any of the 5 books, it shows that Ned was promised to Ashara Dayne? Also, why would Ashara, the heir to House Dorne, be promised to the second son of House Stark? D..."She was heir to House Dayne, it was a typo.
Raymon wrote: "Perhaps Robb should have seen this coming, but he still didnt deserve his fate. Walder Frey's become the ultimate dumb shit in the series however if he actually believes no retribution was gonna be..."Everybody hates those assholes >___< they will pay! The North Remembers!
This was an incredible piece of writing and I just hope the show will do it justice.
After reading that part of the book I had so much hatred for the Freys,I mean these people broke bread in their home.
After reading that part of the book I had so much hatred for the Freys,I mean these people broke bread in their home.
The Red Wedding is definitely going to make the season 3 finale a spectacular one. I can't wait to see the reactions of those who have not read the book.
I know this discussion is really old, but just came across it.Personally, I don't think he 'deserved' it- but my opinion is he learned his lesson by locking Grey Wind outside!! that annoyed me more than anything, and as soon as I read that they weren't together I knew he was going to die, or at least something really tragic would happen. Too much of a bad omen amongst foes, and a wrong decision by Robb!
Nabiya wrote: "Robb didn't deserve it, and it sucked to read that bit, cos up until that point in the series... I still held on to some idealistic "good guy" belief that the Starks would make it all out on top in..."I'm on A Feast For Crows- but Arya is still around! :) and I'm hoping for a book 6 resurgence from her...I could be way off, and if I am please don't tell me!!
The RW shows what is great about A Song of Ice and Fire. Most of the simplistic mythology of knights and princesses we know has a straightforward morality to it. Knights are black or white, and usually the good guy prevails. GRRM inverts this even at the cost of his would-be protagonists. I think more than anything, the series is about morality and how life does not conform to one's black and white expectations.That said, it would be nice to see the Frey castles burned by dragonfire!
Ted wrote: "The RW shows what is great about A Song of Ice and Fire. Most of the simplistic mythology of knights and princesses we know has a straightforward morality to it. Knights are black or white, and usu..."It's true all the books aren't black/white characters- Jaime's another example. Actually they all are!
It's just brilliant.
It was extremely depressing. I love all the Starks, except for Sansa, and seeing them get killed off one by one is emotional torture. But Old Walder/Lord Walder - Hehe, gotta love him.
Jared wrote: "if anyone hasn't read storm of swords! get out of this question now!!!!! This same scene was spoiled to me before i read the book and i hated that spoil!Personally, Robb was my favorite characte..."
I hate the Freys as well!
"Who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low..."Catelyn has always mistrusted the Freys because Lord Walder went back on a promise or something with her father, Lord Hosteen Tully. When the wedding was taking place, Robb and Catelyn (and the direwolf, Grey Wind) all felt uneasy. I think they should have left when the wolf acted up. Or, when the bedding was taking place (although that could have meant even more trouble). It was a smart move to leave Jeyne at home (or whatever her name is) because she would've been killed as well. I don't believe Robb or Catleyn should have been killed or deserved it, but it was inevitible with Lord Walder. He thought Robb deserved death for going back on a promise. After all, when some peace was met, Robb continued to use what remained of the Frey host in battle and still played with the strings of the (once)alliance. That really isn't right.
Now if it was Eddard, I'm not quite sure... Robb was raised well and tried to be as honorable as he could. I'm sure Eddard would have stuck with the marriage pact between the Freys, and not have married the girl who "stole his heart." I know everyone has different theories of Jon Snow's parentage, but if you go with the Eddard is really the father, then he went ahead and left the mother and continued life with Cat. If he were in Robb's place, like I said, he would've never married what's-her-face and would've stuck to the marriage pact.
Mackenzie wrote: ""Who are you, the proud lord said, that I must bow so low..."Catelyn has always mistrusted the Freys because Lord Walder went back on a promise or something with her father, Lord Hosteen Tully. W..."
OK. Cats father was Hoster Tully. They mistrusted the Frey's because Walder did not send his troops until he was sure that the Tully's, Arryn and Baratheons were winning the war against King Aerys and Prince Rhaegar.
Cat didn't trust her instincts and everyone ignored Grey Wind despite knowing wolves have good instincts. All paid the price because they forgot Frey was a miserable old bastard. Frey made sure all would take him seriously. However, guest-right was a very vital part of any culture back then. If guests couldn't be assured of safety, no one would visit, ergo treaties and alliances wouldn't happen.
By the same token, violation of guest-rights would invite repercussions of the highest levels, to ensure all would sit up and take notice. Hence, old Walder made sure everyone would take him seriously from then on. He also made sure his family would be wiped out.
I'm waiting for "Red Revenge", where Walder and his entire family are executed and the Walder history & flag are wiped from history. His castles razed to the ground. They'd most likely be rebuilt as the location is way too strategic to be left alone.
Robb's character was awfully boring to the point of mind-numbing and his mother was dull as well. I find a character like Frey far more interesting. Since I’ve been made privy of the red wedding, I’ve regained interest in the Game of Thrones series and I’ve resumed my reading. Long live the Lannisters !!!!!
nice a Lannister fan. I guess I'm not alone now.
I cant wait to see the look on my wifes face when this all plays out on the show. She hasnt read the books, and its just killing me to talk about it!
Steve wrote: "I cant wait to see the look on my wifes face when this all plays out on the show. She hasnt read the books, and its just killing me to talk about it!"I am in the exact same spot. She turned to me after this week's episode and commented that killing Carstark was probably going to come back to bite him, now that he has to go back to The Freys for help. "Isn't Frey still going to be pissed that Rob married someone else's daughter?" LOL.
I don't recall Robb making a plan to ally with the Frey's in order to attack Casterly Rock in the book. Did they just add that dialogue for the TV show? Been a while....It does seem more than a little obvious what's going to happen from the way that was presented. I recall expecting (or, at least, not being surprised by) the Red Wedding when reading the book because of a few foreshadowing comments and such, but I don't remember it being as obvious as the "I'm going to go ask a guy for an army even though I broke my alliance with him by jilting his daughter" commentary that Robb flat out says in the show.
Anybody have a better memory of that than I?
Gary wrote: "I don't recall Robb making a plan to ally with the Frey's in order to attack Casterly Rock in the book. Did they just add that dialogue for the TV show? Been a while....It does seem more than a..."
There was no plan to attack Casterly Rock in the book. Robb simply wanted to mend fences with the Freys - partially because he could certainly use the Frey armies, but more because he was aware the Freys could be dangerous enemies. After the wedding, Robb planned to attack Moat Cailin and retake the North from the Iron Islanders.
Gary, the show is just changing all of Robb's storyline up, from "Talisa" to that plan. In some ways it's going to make him seem far more stupid in the show when he dies from his decisions.It doesn't even make sense for him to attack Casterly Rock with Winterfell in the state that it is.
Yes, My mom was watching the latest episode and during the whole Robb scene she said "Why is he not returning to take the North? is really Casterly Rock alone? That doesn't sound like Tywin" xD
OK. Thanks for the reminder.The show does seem to be deviating (or including "extras") more from the source material. I thought the first season was pretty accurate, give or take a little bit here and there, but they are going further and further out there.
I'm one of those people who think that any deviation from the original story is 90% likely to be a bad decision and 10% dumb luck if they get it right. That scene in particular struck me as strange as it contradicted so much of what we know about the Freys, the Lannisters, and even Robb, so I guess it's in that 90% block. Too bad, really.
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A correction here: Catelyn did consult Robb about the marriage. She brought him the offer, and his army was not allowed to cross the river until he consented. Robb agreed a little hastily, wanting to get to his father not knowing he was doomed anyway, and had no idea he would soon be Lord Stark and then King in the North.