A Storm of Swords
discussion
The red wedding what are your thoughts?
I don't think Robb deserved to die like that just for breaking a promise. I had a very uneasy feeling the whole time I was reading about Edmure's wedding feast. Then all hell broke loose! I get very involved and personal with almost every book I read, so I was ready to murder the Frey's, too! As for Eddard Stark, no way would he have been dishonorable. Apparently, once was enough for him. And my favorite character is Arya, Arry, Nan [short for Nymeria], Weasel, Squab ... and I can't wait to see what her name changes to next. I am hoping she outlives them all!
Rumor has it, the red wedding was so hard for George R R Martin to write, he wrote the whole book around it and then wrote it last, crying the whole time...
Also, Stark men are known for their excess of honor: it's their fatal flaw. I think, in this series, blood Starks are the only characters that actually stay dead...Poor Robb, and poor Ned...
I think this turn of events was put in to re-affirm the fact that just because you are right and honorable does not mean some sudden stroke of luck will save you (atleast from a book/movie standpoint), and the perceived bad guys will meet their end. We might want it to be so.. but...... Now since I have read all the five books, I believe the Starks will have their revenge, but not in the direct fashion we are used to. I have found my own notions of a character change as the books go by. Now if Eddard would have done the same, I believe he would have kept his guard on. Eddard commanded his own respect (previous wars and such forth) unlike Robb who even though honorable has quite a bit of naivety, and ended up relying too much on people around him. Not too different from Tywin Lannister and his twin children.
I think Aditya has hit the nail on the head. The Starks are, for the most part, the 'honourable' characters in this series (not yet read the most recently published so don't know if it remains true), but as seen from Eddards death that does not save you.
I found the Red Wedding to be quite shocking - although, as with other posters, I was wary throughout it and only slightly shocked that something terrible did happen. Robb was definitely too naive though, he trusted his mothers and fathers influence would remain firm whilst I think these books show that relying one someone else can be incredibly dangerous.
Although it killed me to read it, I like reading about the wedding, it was made so clear from book 1 one that the Starks were honourable, and Robb going back on his word changed that ethos. The other families don't pretend to have so much honour which is why they are surviving! Still it was too harsh a punishment.Also I always thought that it showed that no one person could have everything. Robb was undefeated, married essentially for love and still wanted the best alliances, but really I think in the end he couldn't have it all.
Still the scene effectively made me hate the Frey''s more! and I didn't like them to start with.
Honestly I doubt Eddard would have done what Robb did, he did agree to a arranged marriage and did not back down from that. Maybe GRRM is just trying to make all the Starks go through hell before they rule Westeros! (I'm an Arya and Jon fan)
Agreed - it was like getting punched in the gut to read it, even though it had been obvious that Robb was going to suffer at some point for going back on his word. Eddard wouldn't have found himself in the same situation because he agreed to, and remained faithful to (imo), his arranged marriage. He understood as Robb did not that marriage at their level is strategic and not for love.
I was totally shocked when reading about the red wedding and was not expecting it at all! Miss Robb as he was one of the characters I was rooting for which is why GOT Is such a page turner!
I really liked Robb as a character but was expecting something to happen to him because of his broken promise. But since it didn't happen quickly, I must say I was surprised when it did happen. I wasn't totally shocked but I was totally shocked when Catelyn got killed. That blew me away.The Red Wedding, though, is probably one of the best scenes I have ever read. It was epic, tragic and exciting.
The Frey's had a right to some repayment for Robb breaking his word but that was done when the wedding was organised for his family. In saying that, Robb and his men were supposed to be protected by being invited guests at Castle Frey and in dishonouring such traditions the Frey family is certainly cursed because of that act.
From the minute the northerners crossed the Frey's bridge I had a feeling something bad was going to happen, but I never imagined it to be so heart breaking. I was so sad after reading it :(Robb did break his word, but the Freys just used this as an excuse to betray him and join the Lannisters.
Hmm...I wasn't aware Edd was promised to Ashare...even if he was, his duty required him to be betrothed to Catelyn after Brandons death, so I'd say he was still keeping his honor
I knew something bad was about to happen, but couldn't have imagined just how bad. When Catelyn felt the chainmail underneath that guard's clothes I thought 'uh-oh, here we go' It was very sad when Robb was killed but I suppose as king of the North he was always at risk of being betrayed. I was in total shock with what the Freys did to Grey Wind. Catelyn's death was a big shock too.
Marina wrote: As for Ned, I think he did do the same thing as his son - I think he promised himself to Ashara Dane and was compelled to break that promise and to marry Catelyn. To go further, I think he secretly married Ashara, which would make his children with Cat illigitimate. ..."Wow, I do not know what to think about that... I'd like to see some further discussions on this idea.
Becky wrote: "Marina wrote: As for Ned, I think he did do the same thing as his son - I think he promised himself to Ashara Dane and was compelled to break that promise and to marry Catelyn. To go further, I thi..."I, for one, am longing to know who Jon Snow's mother really is...???
The Freys were pissed off,but they would never have had the balls to kill Robb and his mother without backing from the Lannisters. Unfortunately, Robb lost a lot of credibility when his mother released the Kingslayer so she could negotiate the return of her daughters. Quite honestly, that was stupid because it pissed off Robb's men and many of them left him because of that. Catelyn is just as much to blame as Robb for what happened to set themselves up as enemies of the Freys. Also, she should have never promised her son's marriage without consulting him first.
Marina wrote: "Becky wrote: "Wow, I do not know what to think about that... I'd like to see some further discussions on this idea. "There's a thread on the "Dance with Dragons" board."
Alas... I am not there yet. I bought ADWD the day it came out, I even have it on Audio, but I am forcing myself to hold off until I can do a re-read of the other books. I feel that I need to get a better grasp on the details that I either missed or forgot in the many years that passed between books. I am actually getting very impatient, so I'd better hurry up.
Rachel wrote: "Rumor has it, the red wedding was so hard for George R R Martin to write, he wrote the whole book around it and then wrote it last, crying the whole time..."It's not a rumor, he said it himself in an interview he did. Thought he didn't say that it was the red wedding, because he didn't want to spoil it for those who didn't read the book, but I'm sure it is what he meant.
I didn't like Robb that much. But the scene was so amazing that I had to book down to process what I've just read! And at the end of the book I was glad (and shocked, mostly shocked) when Cat came back from the dead!
I think we all agree that Robb and Catelyn made some very perilous mistakes. Marrying Jeyne, executing Rickard Karstark, releasing Jaime were all a bad idea. I agree with Jamie, Jesne Westerling is not worth losing a kingdom, losing your head over. I just dont understand. what was the rush to marry that woman in the midst of all this battles and confusion. How can he do that and not expect something like Red Wedding? I really really liked Robb and I'm by no means trying to justify his death. But still I wish he was not so impulsive, I wish he was careful because after the dawnfall of Starks nothing's just the same. Bran's crippled, Arya blind, Ned dead, Cat dead, Robb dead, Sansa stupid and coward, Rickon god knows where. Them and targaryen's are my favorite houses. i cant understand why GRRM is always so cruel to them :) and one more thing, i was thinking and realized that Robb has never been a POV character. Almost every Stark has been a POV character, but never Robb. I wonder why.
Mohammed wrote: "It's not a rumor, he said it himself in an interview he did. Thought he didn't say that it was the red wedding, because he didn't want to spoil it for those who didn't read the book, but I'm sure it is what he meant."Yes, I believe it was somewhere in this interview:
http://bit.ly/naii71
It was great and man I hated the Frey's after that. I just wish george had done even 1 POV chapter with Robb. I'm thinking say the prologue for Storm could have been a Robb chapter with him kicking ass, getting injured and meeting the missus or something ... As it was, him running off with her seemed just a little abrupt
Jared wrote: "if anyone hasn't read storm of swords! get out of this question now!!!!! This same scene was spoiled to me before i read the book and i hated that spoil!Personally, Robb was my favorite characte..."
Oh, no.....Robb may have broken his agreement, but no! He did not deserve "the red wedding"......no way. I just wished they were wiser and more prepared than they were. The Frey's thought they were ugly stepchildren for a long time, and Lord Frey built his hatred up for years, and Robb was just newly King of the North. Its just one of those things that George Martin did to allow the good guy get a bad deal. Just like Ned Stark.
I definitely expected some sort of betrayal--because, oh, well, Freys agreed a bit too fast to re-make an alliance with Starks. Then when Grey Wind wanted to attack some Frey in front of the Twins, all of my suspicions got confirmed and I was reading through the chapter just to see what will happen. But I sort of hoped that Rob and Catelyn will live through that. That they will win over the Freys...And instead GRRM made me be seriously upset and in screaming at everyone mode for days.Yeah, Rob screwed up, Catelyn even more, but Red Wedding? I can't describe how much I hate the Freys.
But let's forget about them for a sec. In their evil minds, they probably justified it because of the offense Rob made. But what about Boltons? What the f*ck did Rob do to them so Roose would betray him to Lannisters?
Best scene Martin has ever written. Really didn't see it coming at all.
Bolton didn't wanna be in the defeated side of the war, and the king in the north was now called the king who lost the north
Andres wrote: "Bolton didn't wanna be in the defeated side of the war, and the king in the north was now called the king who lost the north"Yeah, that looks like the best explanation.
i wanted to blame catelyn for this, but she's a mom,and has lost her children. now, i'm not sure who is the real protagonist in the story
I tossed the book across the room after I finished the Red Wedding chapter. Did Robb deserve it? No more than his father deserved to loose his head (for speaking the truth) - but it happened. GRRM is great because he keeps reminding us that bad things happen to good people. Robb was great, but his biggest mistake wasn't even marrying for love - his biggest mistake was not listening to Grey Wind who clearly tried to warn him. Unlike his siblings, Robb didn't explore his connection with his direwolf. Also, Catelyn repeatedly thinks in that chapter how awful the musicians are and that "Frey must be really deaf" - and later she realizes that musicians are armed men posing as musicians. GRRM gave us a hint in one of Tyrion's chapters that Tywin Lannister made sure Robb gets seduced by a woman and thus brakes his promise and looses the Freys as allies. In Feast for Crows Robb's marriage is further explained, but I'll stop here - I don't want to spoil it for anyone.
If there is one Westeros family I am looking forward to see decorating walls with their heads on spikes - those are Freys. Not just because they orchestrated Robb's death while he was a guest under their roof, but more because they look like pathetic medium-level politicians who change sides more often than they change underwear. And then old Frey complains about someone dishonouring his family name and doing them wrong, yet he has no honour to be damaged by any of those actions. It's not just that Freys murdered a king (Renly was murdered; Robert, too) - but they broke a sacred law of hospitality and murdered their guests. In other words, Freys cannot be trusted. I wonder if Targeryans rise again how long would it take Freys to switch sides again? *Frey-induced rant over*
I loved the Frey rant such great comments! I remember the first time through the book when grey wind warned him, i screamed listen to your wolf!!!!
Robb did not have it coming, but he should have seen it coming. How many times before the red wedding did people, even Robb himself say that he was winning every battle but losing the war? He was too trusting and driven by love to be a good king. All of the effective kings in the book so far are driven by law (Stannis) Will to Power and entitlement (Lannisters) or vengeance and low self-esteem. (Freys,Greyjoys, Martells). The only would-be ruler who has any redeeming qualities is Danerys. Robb was too good of a person to be a good king. BTW, I am listening to the audio book for my second read through, and this is my favorite volume, red wedding and all.
Michael wrote: "BTW, I am listening to the audio book for my second read through, and this is my favorite volume, red wedding and all..."It's my favorite as well. So much happens in this book, so many emotions are expended. I was the first of my family and friends to finish it and had to repeatedly bite my tongue as the others caught up to me. None of them expected the Red Wedding and all of them were devastated by it. GRRM is a powerful author and a genius at controlling his readers' emotions.
I wonder how people who haven't read the books will react when HBO gets to this part - I'm assuming they won't change anything. If people were upset by Ned Stark's death how will they handle this blood bath?
Janice wrote: "I wonder how people who haven't read the books will react when HBO gets to this part - I'm assuming they won't change anything. If people were upset by Ned Stark's death how will they handle this b..."I always talk about this. I am assuming they are going to end the 3rd season with this scene and i am sensing alot of money comming to GRRM for book sales after.
Catherine said,If there is one Westeros family I am looking forward to see decorating walls with their heads on spikes - those are Freys
Oh, The Freys will pay and pay and pay for the red wedding. The dead Catelyn walks*, and some in the North remain true.
(*I couldn't resist)
They still owe big for that ... and I'm eagerly waiting.
@Clyde - I know she walks, but I would love to see them publicly humiliated and punished, Ned Stark style. Loosing all their property and Frey's sons, bastards and true-born alike, not having any other choice but to join the Night Watch. On the bright side - Night Watch would suddenly have enough manpower to guard the entire Wall :)
Catherine wrote: "...choice but to join the Night Watch. On the bright side - Night Watch would suddenly have enough manpower to guard the entire Wall" That would be epic :D Though by the numbers in that family, it may as well change the name to Freys' Watch
:D
The red wedding has ruined other novels and series for me. I am always expecting something like the red wedding in most novels or series or fiction that I read now. It was brilliant, and I say this as reader who ruined it for himself. My peeking ahead in Wikipedia to get and understand some details better completely spoiled it for me. I know that is my own fault for being to curious, but it sure didn't ruin the reading of it. I was still blown away by the chapter! Gosh the whole book was amazing!!
I knew that Robb was going to die in this book, but it was still shocking the way it happened. I did catch on when his direwolf was acting out, though. The last thing with Catelyn was also shocking...I don't mean her death, I mean that VERY last thing.
Did Robb deserve it? No. No more than Tyrion deserved to be shafted by his own family.As I read it, Robb married his wife after possibly getting a little too close after a war injury and put himself into an impossible situation of dishonoring someone, either Future Mrs. Robb or the unnamed Frey. Robb, like his father, and all blood Starks (including in their own ways Sansa and Jon) seem to have the same weakness: they have high ideals in something and don't figure out until it is too late that other people do not share these ideals and act much more ambitiously or pragmatically. This is Ned or Robb expecting honor from other people, Jon's ideals being laughed off by both veteran Nights Watch men and Wildlings alike, or Sansa's belief in fairy tale romances.
How much this idealism infects younger Starks like Arya, Bran, and Rickon remains to be seen.
Robb didn't deserve it, and it sucked to read that bit, cos up until that point in the series... I still held on to some idealistic "good guy" belief that the Starks would make it all out on top in the end. NOPE.
However, I find that the scene was what made the book for me. It's possibly my favourite scene in all 5 books so far.
Ugh, the whole scene made me sick; NOT because it was bad oh no; that was some excellent scene writing and genuinely emotional. No it was sickening because of how absolutely cruel Walder Frey and his people brought about the end of Robb and Catelyn. And what they did to their corpses >:(. For a moment, I actually hated Frey more then Joffery. Robb was an awesome and badass character and it sucks hes dead, but I'm glad Catelyn is back in one form or another. Me thinks Frey will meet his end soon enough
Chris wrote: "Best scene Martin has ever written. Really didn't see it coming at all."I agree. It surprised me too and was a great scene.
i heard through various sources that something happend at the a wedding in this book, though it was a shock that it was at this one. Though there where enough hints put in the book the Robb's direwolf reaction when going into the castle, poor musicans, alchol given to the soldiers outside and it stating that the swords where all out of reach.
while it is a shocking scene it is in keeping with the books, historical period that its losley based on and the chectors involved.
having just read to this point in the book my impressions are that i will miss Robb as i think he seemed a nice a chractor at the moment though that could have changed, his mum Catelyn, though was starting to annoy me.
while it is a shocking scene it is in keeping with the books, historical period that its losley based on and the chectors involved.
having just read to this point in the book my impressions are that i will miss Robb as i think he seemed a nice a chractor at the moment though that could have changed, his mum Catelyn, though was starting to annoy me.
I was just waiting for him to die, personally. I thought he was a super boring character. He was like Ned 2.0 meaning he had to die sooner than later. I loved the red wedding - it was so awesome. Now the he's dead, it leaves more narrative time for Starks that are actually interesting.
I'm so glad that that part of the book wasn't spoiled for me. It was emotional shock, horror, torture to read!! lol
Damn Freys! The only thing encouraging about the event is that GRRM always sees to it that the characters get as good as they give ... they Freys are going down in a horrible, horrible way. I can feel it, and can't wait! *sharpens sword* :-D
That is the most horrible and shocking moment in the whole series for me so far! I literally threw my kindle away and gasped "NOOO! This cannot be true" I didn't love Robb the way I love Jon Snow, but he didn't deserve this, he was just a boy, a boy playing king! but I guess this is what happens when you play the game of thrones. :) I'll kill GRRM myself if he dared to kill Jon Snow though!
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Personally, Robb was my favorite character, but once i read in a review someone thought he deserved what he got because he broke a promise, he broke and agreement made and he should have kept his word. What are you thoughts?
My thoughts are he broke is word but then he didn't deserve what happened to him, and i hate they frey's for it and think they all should be burned alive!!
Side question- Do you think Eddard Stark would have done the same as his son?