Thoughts?

[Reilly]

Lionel Shriver
WARNING: SPOILERS

This book SHOCKED me. I felt like something was coming on, and I knew it was kind of about a school shooting, but I had no idea about the family tragedy.

I have 3 discussion questions related to this book:

1) Did anyone see this coming?

2) Does anyone have other school shooting/tragedy/massacre books to recommend?

3) If you read the book AND watched the movie with Tilda Swinton and John C. Reilly, what did you think?

I have been wanting to talk about this book for MONTHS now!!

[Emma]

I love the idea of talking about this one too, but many people I meet who have read it seem to miss its poignancy and just see a depressing murder book, so I’ll be interested in what pops up in this forum!

I enjoyed the film and thought it was an excellent performance by Swinton and Reilly but I watched it with my partner who hadn't read the book and found myself explaining to him why certain events were the way they were and how certain feelings/tensions had developed over Kevin’s life time as the film missed a lot and lost quite a bit of the book's tension, relying instead on subtlety of character and working in the one dimension. For example, it skipped the whole section where he goes through a phase of having his one friend, who blindly follows him and they cause the accident from the bridge (OR making it more obvious that he was responsible for his sister losing her eye). By skipping the friend section, the final scene in the film is far more shocking as you have no idea quite what he’s capable of but it also makes Kevin appear a less complex character by labelling him a straight forward deranged loner, perhaps with schizophrenia or some other mental disability. By having this section in the book the whole character becomes more complicated; he can socialise, he chooses not to and that he does know the difference between right and wrong (its not due to an illness of some kind), he just chooses wrong. The book makes the character more terrifying by offering no excuses for his evil nature but instead that he just ‘is’, most likely by choice. The scenes with his mother in the prison don't give us much of the strange hero worship that has grown within him for his mum, either. We get the idea, but the book really emphasises the twist that he has the upmost respect for his mother and that’s why he let her see the real him, whereas his Dad was always too simple, in his opinion, to understand the complexities of real life and his son.

This book was so hurtful and so moving. It's probably the most intimate novel I have ever read by way of characterisation. I really felt I knew the characters. They were so flawed, honest and intriguing. Also, I found the relationship with Kevin when he was a toddler and held power with things like refusing to potty train far more terrifying that the actual violence at the end. He was almost over-worldy with his grasp of manipulation and the dread he caused within his mother.

A perfectly and beautifully written book about the terrors of family life. Particularly terrifying perhaps for those of us who haven't started our own family yet. You don't know who you'll give birth to but you're required / designed to love them to the bitter end.

Fascinating.

[Danielle]

I keeping bringing this book up in my mind over and over. I'm very disturbed by it, probably because I feel like that would happen to me (I'd be the mom with no connection to her child, because I've never felt any kind of connection to any child, related to me or not -- or what if I did feel something/love my child and he or she was a psychopath like that? As mentioned above I'm exactly that person who doesn't have my own family yet.)

I suspected the ending, and I'm glad I listed to it in audiobook format because I probably would have flipped ahead and spoiled it for myself (I'm the worst at doing that!)

I haven't seen the movie, I keep meaning to watch it but every time I'm in the mood for a movie I seem to also be in the mood for something light haha

[Jude]

I loved this read. so much going on and it was written in a way that I found very intriguing. I dragged my husband to the movie and found it to be dreary, long and it completely lost the meaning I discovered in reading the book

[A.l.s.]

Reilly wrote: "Lionel Shriver
WARNING: SPOILERS

This book SHOCKED me. I felt like something was coming on, and I knew it was kind of about a school shooting, but I had no idea about the family tragedy.

I hav..."

Unfortunately I knew he was going to do something to the sister. Ever since he ruined her eye, I knew she was a goner. I didn't see that he would hurt the dad though, I thought he would make him suffer like his mother since he found them both contemptible. It was the kind of book I hated to like. It was so dark, but it was very well written.

[Reilly]

I have started reading Jodi Picoult's 19 Minutes, which is also about a school shooting. Has anyone read that one as well?
Are there any other fiction books out there about school shootings?

[Cheryl]

I had a feeling something had happened to the father as Eva never made any reference to where Franklin was in the letters she wrote. It also seemed odd that as Franklin felt he had such a close relationship with his son why he didn't also visit. Then when we were introduced to Celia, and Eva wrote Celia got to be with Franklin I knew they both must have been killed but hoped I was wrong. I was still hoping it was going to turn out differently right til the end.
I haven't seen the movie and don't think I will now. The movie I imagine in my head is always so much better. I get frustrated if it doesn' t follow the book.
The book was such a compelling read, slow moving but intriguing and frightening.

[Emma]

Reilly wrote: "I have started reading Jodi Picoult's 19 Minutes, which is also about a school shooting. Has anyone read that one as well?
Are there any other fiction books out there about school shootings?"

I think this is eaxctly what is interesting about this kind of book. Despite my thinking it was excellent, I would never aim for the subject matter as a genre. It seems weird to me to aim for a book about high school shootings. And if this was advertised in that way, I would never have read it.

That may well say more about my ability to make sweeping assumptions than anything.

[Reilly]

Emma wrote: "Reilly wrote: "I have started reading Jodi Picoult's 19 Minutes, which is also about a school shooting. Has anyone read that one as well?
Are there any other fiction books out there about school s..."

I totally agree with you. School shootings as a genre of fiction is very strange. I don't know if I can venture into the realm of nonfiction school shootings, but I still want to learn and understand more as I find this topic unbelievably complex.

[Johanna]

The book really moved me, I found myself not able to stop thinking about it for months! But I was slightly dissapointed in the movie, although the actors were briliant and the storytelling was really good, the ending ruined it for me. When Kevin shows regret for his actions, I just thought that they mist the point of the book. In the book he doesn't regret what he did, he just regrets making his mother suffer in such a way. And that shows again the complex relationship between Kevin and Eva. Which was in my opinion not exploided enough in the film...

[A.l.s.]

Cheryl wrote: "I had a feeling something had happened to the father as Eva never made any reference to where Franklin was in the letters she wrote. It also seemed odd that as Franklin felt he had such a close re..."

For a while I was thinking Franklin had left Eva and that's why she wasn't talking about him. But as it goes on you do get a sinking feeling that that isn't the case. One of the things in the book that frustrated me so much was Franklin's blindness towards his son. It wasn't a frustration with the writer, just the character. Made me want to smack Franklin upside the head. lol And yes, the way the book was written was extremely frightening and disturbing. It was well written, but I don't think it's a genre I would want to read too much.

[A.l.s.]

Johanna wrote: "The book really moved me, I found myself not able to stop thinking about it for months! But I was slightly dissapointed in the movie, although the actors were briliant and the storytelling was real..."

I was disappointed with that part also. That they made it seem like he regretted what he had done to his victims. That wasn't who he was. I was just amazed he could show regret at all, especially when it was directed towards his mother. But I think he had more respect for her than he ever had for his father. Kevin definitely felt more contempt for his father than his mother.

[Cheryl]

A.l.s. wrote: "One of the things that frustrated me so much was Franklin's blindness towards his son..."


I agree, each time Kevin did something terrible I kept hoping Franklin would come to his senses, but no. He and Eva were poles apart on their view of and relationship with their son, and they pushed each other further apart - maybe making Franklin blinder and Eva more likely to see the dark side.
Thinking back on the book, however was it allowed for Kevin to make it to 5 years and still wear nappies?! Surely most people would see that as not right and seek medical or psychological help for the child?

[A.l.s.]

Cheryl wrote: "A.l.s. wrote: "One of the things that frustrated me so much was Franklin's blindness towards his son..."


I agree, each time Kevin did something terrible I kept hoping Franklin would come to his s..."

I would have to go back and check for certain but I believe she did take him to the doctor and got nowhere with that because Franklin kept down playing it. Plus the toilet training was made impossible by Kevin because he was using it as a tool to torment his mother. There was no medical reason behind it, one day he just decided he had other means of tormenting his mother so he took off the diaper and didn't use them anymore. Doesn't get much more psychopathic than that. That child was demented from the get go. Also she had discussed it with the nanny that she thought his behavior was not right. The nanny agreed but of course Franklin did not.

[Reilly]

Did Eva breaking Kevin's arm have anything to do with attempting to potty train? I thought that broken arm kind of snapped him out of it and he realized not to mess with his mom anymore about this.

I may be combining different events though...

[A.l.s.]

Reilly wrote: "Did Eva breaking Kevin's arm have anything to do with attempting to potty train? I thought that broken arm kind of snapped him out of it and he realized not to mess with his mom anymore about this..."

Ah, you might be right on that one. It's been so long since I read it I'd have to go back and check, but that's ringing a bell. Wasn't he on the changing table when that happened and that's when she broke it? Or am I getting it mixed up?

[Johanna]

Reilly wrote: "Did Eva breaking Kevin's arm have anything to do with attempting to potty train? I thought that broken arm kind of snapped him out of it and he realized not to mess with his mom anymore about this..."

He stopped using diapers after his mom dropped him and he broke his arm. He did that as a 'reward', sort of, for her showing her true feelings, her resentment towards him. It's been a while since I read the book, but I believe he called it the most honest thing she ever did...

[Holly]

"The Hour I First Believed" by Wally Lamb is another work of fiction addressing the issue of school shooting, in particular, Columbine. It focuses on how the shooting impacted the survivors from the perspective of a pair of teachers. Our book club really enjoyed it. It also does not leave the reader with quite the same level of "post traumatic book disorder" that "We Need to talk about Kevin" does!

[Emma]

Cheryl wrote: I agree, each time Kevin did something terrible I kept hoping Franklin would come to his s..."

Totally agree. And what was even more frustrating was that IMO society would probably most agree with Franklin's style of parenting most of all and consider that Eva probably creating a neurotic child with her behaviour and apparent cold attitude towards her son (what with her paranoia that he was out to hurt her even practically as a new born). Society doesn't like to believe you can be born plain bad (and I'm not sure that I believe that either) but it made for interesting thinking in this case!!

[Emma]

Reilly wrote: "Did Eva breaking Kevin's arm have anything to do with attempting to potty train? I thought that broken arm kind of snapped him out of it and he realized not to mess with his mom anymore about this..."

I believe this was when he started to develop a 'respect' for his mother's behaviour, which we learn about at the end of the novel when she visits him in prison. (It's a bit too subtle in the film version)

[MJ]

What do readers think about the incident w his little sister losing her eye?

I am the first person to suspend disbelief when reading a great book - but I got stuck right here. My gut feeling was any parent, I.e., Franklin, could not in all good consciousness explain this away. Getting his little sister to use drain cleaner to make her eye feel better? No way.

Straight to juvie or the psych ward after that one. For me.

[Nicky]

I loved the book! Found it difficult at the start but was definitely worth the effort. I found the whole concept of a struggling paternal relationship written in the narrative brilliant. The book is a constant battle between Eva and Kevin throwing in context of Eva's "former life". The one thing I didn't like was the fact that I found every character so unlikable.

[Therese]

Reilly wrote: "Lionel Shriver
WARNING: SPOILERS

This book SHOCKED me. I felt like something was coming on, and I knew it was kind of about a school shooting, but I had no idea about the family tr..."

I worked out after the first few chaptors and as soon as the sister and husband not around, they were dead. Then I figured Kevin must have killed them too. So the end was no real surprise.

I didn't like the mother from the first pages. She seemed a selfish, stupid woman to me and frankly, don't blame Kevin for rejecting her. Both parents were useless and stupid. I just wanted to slap them both! Especially once it was damn obvious Kevin had major psychological problems, was cruel and lacked empathy.

As a parent myself, it was not that shocking that Kevin would grow up to be like he was, having such mindlessly selfish, stupid parents.

Thankfully, it's fiction. Surely few parents out there could be as downright idiotic as those 2?!