The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion
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Faust, First Part
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Faust - Part I ~ Scene II: In Front of the City-Gate
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The section concerning Faust feels like a reflection on the duality of humanity-the earthly ( or earthy or sinful) part and the spiritual, intellectual part. This is perhaps mirrored in the appearance vs the reality of Faust's father's role as a doctor-he is seen as a a healer and yet Faust believes he did more harm than good with his ministrations.
Frances wrote: "I agree, and this feels very much like a play with parallel conversations going on, presumably on different parts of the stage.The section concerning Faust feels like a reflection on the duality ..."
I like that concept about the duality role, and the struggle between the spiritual/mind and the Body/Earth.
Faust seems to be struggling from something of a crisis of faith, in the fact that he is starting to question his own role as a doctor, and becoming frustrated with the limitations of his intellect.
He is feeling his inadequacies as a doctor and thus cannot be comforted.
I liked this scene as well, esp. the beginning of it, as it is such a contrast to the previous one.However, Faust is still discontent, as we have seen previously.
In my opinion, he shows here again his need to turn to magic/ the spirits as he hopes this will help him in his understanding of it all.
However, Wagner tries to hold Faust back from calling the spirits and being engaged with them. He sees them as a great danger to mankind, who whisper like angels when they lie. - sorry I have not checked how this was translated into English - so this is my personal translation of it.
What did you think of the black dog appearing at the end? Might this be the black/ more devilish spirit (esp. with the fire/ flames (again I have not checked how this was translated into English)? Faust sees at first a spirit in it, but Wagner is trying to get Faust away from this - in my opinion - and points out that he actually cannot see anything, but a black dog.
About Faust's father's medical practice, does anyone know what the Lion, Lily and the young Queen refer to?"There was a Lion red, a wooer daring,
Within the Lily’s tepid bath espoused,
And both, tormented then by flame unsparing,
By turns in either bridal chamber housed.
If then appeared, with colors splendid,
The young Queen in her crystal shell,
This was the medicine — the patients’ woes soon ended,
And none demanded: who got well?"
Nemo wrote: "About Faust's father's medical practice, does anyone know what the Lion, Lily and the young Queen refer to?"There was a Lion red, a wooer daring,
Within the Lily’s tepid bath espoused,
And both, ..."
It is part of alchemy and are metaphorical names for chemicals and chemical processes.
You take one (Lion) and add another (Lily) and then mix them together in one glass container(which is the bridal chamber). The young Queen is the result of this alchemistic procedure, the supposed medicine.
Hedi wrote: "You take one (Lion) and add another (Lily) and then mix them together in one glass container(which is the bridal chamber). The young Queen is the result of this alchemistic procedure, the supposed medicine..."I understand it when viewed as a chemical process. But, presumably there must be something in the nature of the Lion and the Lily that when combined through fire could generate a young Queen, which seems quite impossible on the surface. So I was wondering if they are metaphors of some kind.
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Nemo wrote: "Hedi wrote: "You take one (Lion) and add another (Lily) and then mix them together in one glass container(which is the bridal chamber). The young Queen is the result of this alchemistic procedure, ..."I am not sure there is more to it than chemistry. Alchemical documentation mentions the lion to be red sulphur and the lily to be mercury. The result was often called king, less often queen, the term Goethe uses.
Goethe had studied alchemical documents when younger, so he was familiar with these terms.
Frances,I'm using Bayard Taylor's verse translation in the original metres (more details here) Please post the prose translation too, so we can get many different perspectives.
Hedi wrote: "What did you think of the black dog appearing at the end? Might this be the black/ more devilish spirit (esp. with the fire/ flames (again I have not checked how this was translated into English)? ..."I was curious about the appearance of the dog as well, for the dog it is an animal that seems often to have mixed associations with it. Frequently hailed as man's best friend, the image of the dog often comes with positive associations and is not an animal that readily symbolizes ill omens.
But the Irish have the legend of the Black Dog, which actually is sometimes seen as a symbol of good luck and sometimes seen as an ill omen, often it is believed that to see the black dog is a harbinger of death, but others see it as a more positive spirit guide.
And Satan/Evil/Death are sometimes associated with jackals, and wolves, which are canine creatures.
In the case of Wagner it was my presumption that Wagner truly did not see what Faust saw, and that he really only saw it as a dog, and saw Faust's vision as being a product of his discontented state.
Silver, you are right assuming Wagner did not see anything, but a dog. I might not have written that so clearly. I think, though, that he is also trying to convince Faust that he should not see or have anything to do with them, as he considers them evil. In the end, he seems to be successful as Faust admits that he does not see a trace of a spirit.
Hedi wrote: "Silver, you are right assuming Wagner did not see anything, but a dog. I might not have written that so clearly. I think, though, that he is also trying to convince Faust that he should not see or ..."Ok, I was not sure if you were saying that Wagner saw the spirit but did not want to admit to doing so to Faust.
Hedi wrote: "Alchemical documentation mentions the lion to be red sulphur and the lily to be mercury. The result was often called king, less often queen, the term Goethe uses."That's interesting. Is the name "lion" assigned to red sulphur alone, or to other things as well? A name expresses the nature of the thing named. What does lion and red sulphur have in common? What about lily and mercury?
Nemo wrote: "That's interesting. Is the name "lion" assigned to red sulphur alone, or to other things as well? A name expresses the nature of the thing named. What does lion and red sulphur have in common? What about lily and mercury? According to my Alchemy Dictionary, in Alchemy the lion is often a symbol for gold and the sun, and in Egyptian myth the lion is seen as a guardian of scared places, and has also been viewed as a guardian of the gates of the underworld.
Sulphur was viewed as being gold, the masculine, while mercury was associated with silver, the feminine.
Mercury and Sulphur were seen to represent man's spirit and soul.
I cannot find anything about what the particular symbolism of lily might be in alchemy, but some common associations with the lily include, innocence, purity, piety.
The Greeks saw it a symbol for motherhood and sexuality.
It is also a symbol of death.
Silver wrote: "I cannot find anything about what the particular symbolism of lily might be in alchemy, but some common associations with the lily include, innocence, purity, piety."I don't know anything about alchemy (beyond Harry Potter), but the lily is the symbol of the Virgin Mary in Catholic tradition. The old masters usually featured them in their Madonna paintings.
Of course, lilies are also associated with Easter.
I was in some ways put in the mind of A Christmas Carol in the way in which in both cases we have an individual who sets themselves apart from the jubilee happening around them and who isolate themselves with their own concerns and thoughts. Faust remains untouched by the happy air around him and does not want to partake in it, for he has higher aims.
I think this also helps build an idea of Faust's character, as we see that he appears to be well liked and respected within the town, but is unhappy with himself.
I was a bit confused of what to make of the story about his father. Though the impression I have is that it was due to their lack of sufficient knowledge of which Faust laments, and the lives that were lost because they did not understand the proper treatment and the medicines of which they used failed.