reading is my hustle’s review of Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis > Likes and Comments
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oh, well good b/c i feel like a huge outlier on this one. i do believe that parts of the book were excellent- his insights were valuable. but in the end it read like a conservative manifesto. poverty is not solved by working harder. the oversimplification of it all astounded me.
Hi, Elizabeth. I just finished this book. I agree that he can sound pretty conservative. But I do think he was talking about working at all, not just working harder. And the fact that so many poor folks are ghettoized together. Even he didn't know how to fix that one, except to suggest that low-income housing assistance homes shouldn't all be bunched together with other poor folk.
This is actually what folks are saying about inner-city blacks--that they should be able to move out of their living area if they can and mix it all up a bit so that everyone, including wealthier folks, have a little more social capital. We'd understand each other better. I'm going to guess that this is going to be objected to, but I also think it is the best idea I can think of.
Trish wrote: "Hi, Elizabeth. I just finished this book. I agree that he can sound pretty conservative. But I do think he was talking about working at all, not just working harder. And the fact that so many poor ..."
Trish- so glad you have read this I look forward to reading your review. I just got so frustrated by his contradictions & now b/c I have seen him interviewed several times I am mixing up what he said in his book vs. what he said while being interviewed. My biggest problem has been his assertion that "his people" are hardworking but then states that they are lazy & not wanting to work. What? I commented on this in another goodreads review. Is it cognitive dissonance? I would argue that this group differs from other poor groups because of their nationalism & love of the military. That makes for all the anti-immigration & "they are cutting in line" mentality & so Trump gets their vote. So when Vance is being asked to opine on why this group sees Trump as a viable candidate he needs to be more honest that it is because of the very thing he spent much of his book explaining: their honor culture, nationalism, and veneration of the military.
Elizabeth wrote: "My biggest problem has been his assertion that "his people" are hardworking but then states that they are lazy & not wanting to work. What?..."
Yes, he'll have to work this kink out of his arguments before he goes big time. I have no doubt he is angling for political office. That's fine, but he'd better keep his eye on the ball he started rolling.
Elizabeth said: "That makes for all the anti-immigration & "they are cutting in line" mentality & so Trump gets their vote...."
This is a good point, but I didn't hear any immigration talk anywhere, did I? At least not in the book. That would have lifted this personal memoir into the political sphere for sure.
Anyway, you have no doubt read/heard more than I on Vance's intentions and attitudes. I am always suspicious, I admit, of conservatives, but this was the first time I didn't have objection to what he was telling us. I suppose if he keeps talking, I'll find something.
Trish wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "My biggest problem has been his assertion that "his people" are hardworking but then states that they are lazy & not wanting to work. What?..."
Yes, he'll have to work this kink ..."
ha! i think when you were writing this response i was doing the same on your review. the crosstalk is a problem b/c he is opining on all the networks about "trump's working class appeal" and the book and question are starting to all run together. to answer your question (though) no he did not talk about anti-immigration in his book but has in his various interviews. he has politicized the book.
Christy wrote: "Oh, I probably overreacted and should keep this on TBR list, anyway… For one thing, now that I’ve read more reviews, I’m curious to know how or how much different is Vance's “hillbilly” ethos to th..."
hi, christy! i always look forward to your comments (reviews, too). the study you talk about sounds interesting. i love that you "overreacted" & put this back on your TBR list. i have been known to do the same. :)
I don't recall him saying at any point in the book that poor people should "work harder." I have also listened to several podcasts and read interviews and thought that he was very consistent in all of them, as well as sounded very down to earth. What I heard was that the issues he describes in the book are the result of many complex factors. He gave a few specific examples of people he had worked with who seemed to not really want to work, and therefore proceeded to blame the system when they were fired. In the podcasts and interviews, when asked about solutions to the poverty, drug/alcohol problems, and violence that are prevalent in the area, he states that he thinks that it will take a combination of things such as different economic policies, increased access to and assistance with obtaining education, as well as changes in the attitudes of individuals toward education.
Traci wrote: "I don't recall him saying at any point in the book that poor people should "work harder." I have also listened to several podcasts and read interviews and thought that he was very consistent in all..."
hi, traci-
here he is making a categorical comment on his people:
People talk about hard work all the time in places like Middletown. You can walk through a town where 30 percent of the young men work fewer than twenty hours a week and find not a single person aware of his own laziness.
in many of his interviews vance consistently contradicts himself as he does here. and in this slate interview in the span of half of a sentence, he goes from denying racism as a motivating factor in the Right's criticism of obama to saying it absolutely is a part.
i agree with him that changing attitudes is key and probably the single most important shift that needs to happen. so when vance is asked about trump's appeal he also needs to call out the nationalism & racism that (as we are finding) is endemic to "his people."
Even though you had issues with the book, you've piqued my interest!
Elizabeth: My phone browser is shot and won't let me "like" your review, but I did like it and concur with you completely. I hated this book and most of Vance's viewpoints espoused herein. I'm flabbergasted that I wasted the time reading it, although I guess it does provide insight on the popularity of Trump here in the Appalachians (where I live at the butt-end of). I don't see any other reason to read this book, quite honestly.
Snotchocheez wrote: "Elizabeth: My phone browser is shot and won't let me "like" your review, but I did like it and concur with you completely. I hated this book and most of Vance's viewpoints espoused herein. I'm flab..."
thanks for weighing in! this book made me a bit crazy b/c it read as a bit self-congratulatory & at times seemed high-handed. i have been unable to separate out his book from his political interviews & op-ed's for the NYT. probs not fair but by presuming to be a spokesperson for "his people" on network television he blurred the lines between politics & his memoir. we are definitely outliers- this was just named a notable book of 2016 by the WP.
You def could talk me down to a 2-star for this one, Elizabeth... Hard one!
Christy wrote: "You def could talk me down to a 2-star for this one, Elizabeth... Hard one!"
ha! starring reviews is so subjective; no? sometimes i will re-read a review & think why the low (or high) star rating?! i wonder if it wouldn't be better to star a book a few months after reading it & writing the review.
Marie wrote: "Even though you had issues with the book, you've piqued my interest!"
marie- sorry i missed your comment! it is definitely a book that is relevant to our current political times & one that has been widely read. you could start by watching a few of J.D. Vance's interviews or reading his op-eds. at this point Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis & his political commentary are blurred but either will sum up his thoughts on the white working class.
I did not get a sense of political commentary in this book nor did I get a sense of social commentary. I see a man who worked very hard to get away from a dysfunctional family. He has a long road in front of him. I see a lot of anger and fear in his writing. This is not about hillbillies. It is about child abuse and neglect. Shame on his mother and grandmother.
Neil wrote: "I did not get a sense of political commentary in this book nor did I get a sense of social commentary. I see a man who worked very hard to get away from a dysfunctional family. He has a long road i..."
hi, neil- thank you for commenting. it is true that his book does not contain political commentary. however, over the course (& leading up to/after the election) he started giving interviews & opining on network TV about "his people" & their reasons for supporting trump. he politicized his book & it influenced my reading experience. it became difficult to separate the two. if you look at message 12 in this thread, i linked to a couple of examples.
Neil wrote: "I did not get a sense of political commentary in this book nor did I get a sense of social commentary. I see a man who worked very hard to get away from a dysfunctional family. He has a long road i..."
Neil - I think you're on to something *both* to notice the "anger and fear" in his writing and that the most salient message in the book is, indeed, about "child abuse and neglect." (Interesting only a few reviewers have really picked up on either!) I thought it was the mother and other (male) relatives, though, and not his grandparents, who were doing the abuse and neglect. You make it crystal clear to me that the real story isn't Vance's and his long-shot catapult up the class ladder but about all the children that have dysfunctional or missing social support systems (including their parents) in his Everytown, Middle America.
I am working class and have studied of it for decades. This book puts us backward into ignorance and bias. You must see through his false and over generalization.
"Jay" sent me by PM this newer (and quite critical) article about Vance's book from The New Republic, calling him a "false prophet": https://newrepublic.com/article/13871....
Christy wrote: ""Jay" sent me by PM this newer (and quite critical) article about Vance's book from The New Republic, calling him a "false prophet": https://newrepublic.com/article/13871......"
Thank you, Christy! I read the New Republic article & linked to it for friends & family who also read "Hillbilly..." back when it was posted. I liked it b/c it validated everything I have been saying. ;)
Did you happen to catch this op-ed J.D. Vance recently wrote?
Specifically:
...Eventually, I achieved something roughly similar to the president’s early, personal accomplishments: a prestigious law degree, a strong professional career and a modicum of fame as a writer...
I was once again reminded of his unbelievable & unabashed ability to pat himself on the back. It was what bothered me most in his book. And the whole point really (in the end) was that more people could/should follow his example.
Also, he needs to STOP with the President Obama comparisons. Especially when he goes on to say:
...On Jan. 20, the political side of my brain will breathe a sigh of relief at Mr. Obama’s departure. I will hope for better policy from the new administration, a health reform package closer to my ideological preferences, and a new approach to foreign policy...
Don't tell me this guy hasn't politicized his book! If you are only reading his book then you are not getting the whole picture (or context) of who he is & the meaning of the book.
Agreed, Elizbeth, that the op-ed didn't endear him to those moderates "across the aisle", as it were... He did mention "race" twice, though, and only once without dismissive disdain (better than his "choice" of ignoring rustbelt racism in his book!) I grant that he was trying mightily to position himself politically moderate in a Trump world. Maybe he'll be an Undersecretary to Ben Carson?
As someone who did not grow up in the rust belt, but rather poor and white in the middle of the country, I completely understood the contradictions in people who talk about hard work, but do not live the "talk". Many working poor like my single mother worked three jobs to survive, but I also witnessed just as many like my absentee dad who would quit job after job so they did not have to pay child support, but who still had money for cigarettes and cars. And as an adult, I do not have any conservative leanings so I believe whole heartily in helping the poor, but I have witnessed that phenomenon first hand.
That being said, it is impossible to work hard when you are addicted to drugs/alcohol, suffer from mental illness, have little education or have always lived a life of chaos and violence. How can one even begin to have a productive life when those are the obstacles? Those are the issues and needs of the poor that must be addressed before you can even begin to discuss working hard.
I also understood his conflict in understanding/loving/identifying with his family and neighbors, but also seeing them in a different light once he was exposed to other types of lifestyles.
The point I have witnessed the most often is the expectations and ideas the poor have about their futures. And I whole heartedly agree with what he witnessed. I don't even think this is necessarily exclusive to the poor. It is very difficult to achieve more for yourself than other's around you when you do not believe you can and do not think you deserve it. And nobody else believes in you either. And often if you try, others consider you to be "gettin above your raisin" if you even attempt it. I never once had a teacher or adult really encourage me to achieve more even though I was a good student, not in any trouble and a very reliable worker thanks to my mom's role modeling, but even she was a major obstacle when I expressed interest in pursuing higher education because of the cost. She basically told me I was on my own because she did not have any way to help me or my siblings financially.
Luckily, one summer working a" good" job in a factory was enough for me to know that I would do whatever it took to get a college degree, but I had no idea or support in achieving that goal. And I obtained my degree thanks to working many jobs, but still did not have any experience in landing jobs or really networking.
I did not get the impression from this book that he did not identify with their plight at all. But just like him, I have witnessed loved ones or friends who do not have the ability to acknowledge their role and responsibility in that plight. We all have some level of accountability when it comes to our lives. Even the poor I daresay. My mom never really accepted food stamps even though she qualified and she never once felt sorry for herself of blamed others. Even my dad. And she still believed in social programs and gave to those less fortunate. She just never expected it was someone else's job to do that for her.
Perhaps he is gunning for a political career and I don't think that is inherently a bad thing. Good on him. After what he went through as a child and how he made it out, I think he should reach as high as he can.
Just throwing out a different opinion from another poor white kid who made it out. You can sympathize with where you come from, but also not choose enable the cycle of disfunction from which you fled.
Rose wrote: "As someone who did not grow up in the rust belt, but rather poor and white in the middle of the country, I completely understood the contradictions in people who talk about hard work, but do not li..."
Nice, Rose. Thanks for that.
Rose wrote: "As someone who did not grow up in the rust belt, but rather poor and white in the middle of the country, I completely understood the contradictions in people who talk about hard work, but do not li..."
Good to share your story, as I did, too! This story triggers so much for many of us. I, also, had the same experience of working a horrific factory job for a year (that, also, was a "good" job to have for those without college) and was already working through college but that experience was plenty motivation to finish! (I do remember finishing Economic Anthropology in two minutes reads throughout a 12 hour night shift between burning my hands through gloves pulling dashboard parts out of injection molding machines in Dover NH! :-))
Even poor communities had wonderful schools that were fully funded throughout the 70s, but those were in seriously decline by the time Vance was born. The epidemic of hard drug addiction is a game-changer, too, isn't it? (Just last night in my first class of 25 White central Maine students only two claimed not to know either a heroin or meth addict.)
FYI Elizabeth: I think Vance was right and noting something important in his NYT op-ed this week https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/op... and I’m grateful he’s working on the opioid problem back in Ohio (and maybe do something sensible with Kasich) .Here is another harsher criticism this week from a young African-American scholar (who I'd met when he was an undergrad at lily white Univ of New Hampshire) who interestingly, seems to speak up well for poor Whites here: http://www.salon.com/2017/03/11/hillb...
Larry wrote: "I am working class and have studied of it for decades. This book puts us backward into ignorance and bias. You must see through his false and over generalization."
Truth there, Larry! Just last night, a retired teacher didn't realize this element and was looking forward to reading it in her (yes, White female) bookclub, and was expecting it to be an story about the White working class akin to The Beans of Egypt, Maine. The handful of us had all read Carolyn Shute's book, but only two Hillbilly, so it was an interesting conversation of comparison. Lead me to reflect that Shute didn't generalize, just described, so ended up being more honest and true. She didn't add in bits of disparate research to jusify nor cast the working class "backward into ignorance and bias", as you note. It was interesting to think fiction as more authentic and real than this "memoir", on some level.
Rose wrote: "As someone who did not grow up in the rust belt, but rather poor and white in the middle of the country, I completely understood the contradictions in people who talk about hard work, but do not li..."
thank you for commenting, rose. you helped me understand why he seemed to both criticize & defend his people.
Christy wrote: "FYI Elizabeth: I think Vance was right and noting something important in his NYT op-ed this week https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/op... and I’m grateful he’s workin..."
thank you for the links, christy! :)
Lea wrote: "Your last paragraph says it all."
thank you!
For anybody still interested, another GRer alerted me that on Sun., June 25th, at 7pm EST Vance will be interviewed by Megyn Kelly on NBC. I think progressives should pay attention for how Vance's "memoir", classified as social science and received as research, is informing the current devastation of the US welfare state. I was taken with his emotional response when describing the day his mother was arrested as a hard drug addict on the preview: http://www.nbcnews.com/megyn-kelly/vi....
I have not seen any of Vance's interviews, but him saying Trump is 'not part of the political elite' does sound like maybe Vance has gone over to the elite side just a tad more than his background! Trump may be rough politically..he is an elite to the 'T'!!! (yawn) I do feel that the author kinda skipped over the analysis of why people stay in a hole and the outside forces that help keep them there. He'll continue well in his elite lifestyle. What many comments leave out is the military service. THAT paid for his four year degree and allow him to see an array of people from different backgrounds! I think our country is underapprective of the value of serving in our military regardless of politically background. (my ex, myself, my daughter, and now my son are/have served) ANYWAY, thoughtful read and makes you ponder some things that maybe the author did NOT say!
Pj wrote: "I have not seen any of Vance's interviews, but him saying Trump is 'not part of the political elite' does sound like maybe Vance has gone over to the elite side just a tad more than his background!..."
enjoyed your comments, pj! i think you are right to point to his service & his book absolutely did make me think. thank you for commenting!
I struggled so hard about what to give this book. One star? Four? I honor his love of his family, but . . .
Jan wrote: "I struggled so hard about what to give this book. One star? Four? I honor his love of his family, but . . ."
I get it. Did you see that Mitch McConnell is urging him to run for the Senate in Ohio? Pretty much saw that coming...
Hmmm....interesting. True reason for the book? With the 'I did it they can, too' attitude towards his people? He'll fit right in! {saying that in jest, I think...}
Your assessment seems a little too simple. In the end, he does say that the change needs to come from the individuals and the community itself, but at the same time acknowledges how difficult that is, how the odds are stacked against them, and how close he was to the edge himself if not just enough things out of his control had not gone right for him his story would have looked a whole lot different. He even supposes that government programs might be able to help a little, but not much.
Great review! I particularly liked the last 2 sentences.
Lilo wrote: "Great review! I particularly liked the last 2 sentences."
thank you, lilo! do you know about elizabeth catte & What You Are Getting Wrong About Appalachia? here is an interview worth reading. i like her very much.
Elizabeth wrote: "Lilo wrote: "Great review! I particularly liked the last 2 sentences."
thank you, lilo! do you know about elizabeth catte & What You Are Getting Wrong About Appalachia? here is an ..."
Thank you, but no time, no time! The day has only 24 hours, and lately they seem like only 8.
You have to remember that Vance is a libertarian. His philosophy has no answers, at all, so he has none.
And it's worth nothing that Vance is now a venture capitalist working for a vicious sociopath named Peter Thiel. I came away from the book realizing that while Vance had the courage to look back at his life, he learned nothing from it.
Susan wrote: "You have to remember that Vance is a libertarian. His philosophy has no answers, at all, so he has none."
I lean libertarian. This philosophy does have answers, it's that generally, governments are rather ineffectual at fixing a lot of humanity's problems, and therefore, generally should stay out of it. Btw... this includes moral issues as well. That point is often missed by these tea party republicans... but I digress.
His answer is that the cycle of domestic violence and trauma that these communities endure are creating children that are less capable of handling their adult relationships. And that these community members should try to better themselves somehow.
I too noticed the lack of dialogue about race in this book. He seems willing to look at his culture with candid honesty- why leave out this part?
Ronda wrote: "I too noticed the lack of dialogue about race in this book. He seems willing to look at his culture with candid honesty- why leave out this part?"
Yes. That bothered me as well. I doubt that the run ins with CPS, police and law, would have gone the same way if they had not been white. They were very privileged to have the ability to reshape their family as they wished (with grandparents acting as primary caregivers whenever they felt uncomfortable living with the person that had custody).
Ha this is exactly the point where I decided to ditch the book. His view of humanity is just too different from mine for me to gain much from his book.
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Wow! Love this, in part because unexpected! I thought he was credited with putting his finger on the pulse of false consciousness, e.g., uneducated White America that's voting for Trump? I'm dying to know more now... Thanks!
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oh, well good b/c i feel like a huge outlier on this one. i do believe that parts of the book were excellent- his insights were valuable. but in the end it read like a conservative manifesto. poverty is not solved by working harder. the oversimplification of it all astounded me.
Hi, Elizabeth. I just finished this book. I agree that he can sound pretty conservative. But I do think he was talking about working at all, not just working harder. And the fact that so many poor folks are ghettoized together. Even he didn't know how to fix that one, except to suggest that low-income housing assistance homes shouldn't all be bunched together with other poor folk. This is actually what folks are saying about inner-city blacks--that they should be able to move out of their living area if they can and mix it all up a bit so that everyone, including wealthier folks, have a little more social capital. We'd understand each other better. I'm going to guess that this is going to be objected to, but I also think it is the best idea I can think of.
I heard on Fareed Zakaria this author mention the "hard work" of the poor, as others have heard him say publically in other interviews, so seems there is something weird going on here if the book repeatedly counters this with how the poor are *not* working?? I assume this contradiction, if true, has something to do with the strong need to believe the poor are lazy in the US. Census data shows us that fully 85% of the households of the US poor are "working poor" (defined as at least one adult working at least part-time - often seasonal or piecework) and only 15% are "welfare poor". (Students are generally shocked at this, and tend to agree that the general public believes that statistic is reversed.) Guess I'll take this one off my "to read" list, as I get this argument of the "lazy poor" regularly enough as it is...:-)
Oh, I probably overreacted and should keep this on TBR list, anyway… For one thing, now that I’ve read more reviews, I’m curious to know how or how much different is Vance's “hillbilly” ethos to the “mountain ethos” that the sociologist Kai Erickson coined in his *Appalachian Culture* of close to 30 years ago. (I think of this study when reflecting on Vance's apparent contradiction of claiming the poor are lazy AND hard-working, as Erickson described a set of “contradictory tendencies” including love of tradition AND respect for individual liberty, self-assertion AND resignation, self- AND group-centered, and ability AND disability (“I can take care of myself….ah, but can’t as I’m all messed up!”)
Trish wrote: "Hi, Elizabeth. I just finished this book. I agree that he can sound pretty conservative. But I do think he was talking about working at all, not just working harder. And the fact that so many poor ..."Trish- so glad you have read this I look forward to reading your review. I just got so frustrated by his contradictions & now b/c I have seen him interviewed several times I am mixing up what he said in his book vs. what he said while being interviewed. My biggest problem has been his assertion that "his people" are hardworking but then states that they are lazy & not wanting to work. What? I commented on this in another goodreads review. Is it cognitive dissonance? I would argue that this group differs from other poor groups because of their nationalism & love of the military. That makes for all the anti-immigration & "they are cutting in line" mentality & so Trump gets their vote. So when Vance is being asked to opine on why this group sees Trump as a viable candidate he needs to be more honest that it is because of the very thing he spent much of his book explaining: their honor culture, nationalism, and veneration of the military.
Elizabeth wrote: "My biggest problem has been his assertion that "his people" are hardworking but then states that they are lazy & not wanting to work. What?..."Yes, he'll have to work this kink out of his arguments before he goes big time. I have no doubt he is angling for political office. That's fine, but he'd better keep his eye on the ball he started rolling.
Elizabeth said: "That makes for all the anti-immigration & "they are cutting in line" mentality & so Trump gets their vote...."
This is a good point, but I didn't hear any immigration talk anywhere, did I? At least not in the book. That would have lifted this personal memoir into the political sphere for sure.
Anyway, you have no doubt read/heard more than I on Vance's intentions and attitudes. I am always suspicious, I admit, of conservatives, but this was the first time I didn't have objection to what he was telling us. I suppose if he keeps talking, I'll find something.
Trish wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "My biggest problem has been his assertion that "his people" are hardworking but then states that they are lazy & not wanting to work. What?..."Yes, he'll have to work this kink ..."
ha! i think when you were writing this response i was doing the same on your review. the crosstalk is a problem b/c he is opining on all the networks about "trump's working class appeal" and the book and question are starting to all run together. to answer your question (though) no he did not talk about anti-immigration in his book but has in his various interviews. he has politicized the book.
Christy wrote: "Oh, I probably overreacted and should keep this on TBR list, anyway… For one thing, now that I’ve read more reviews, I’m curious to know how or how much different is Vance's “hillbilly” ethos to th..."hi, christy! i always look forward to your comments (reviews, too). the study you talk about sounds interesting. i love that you "overreacted" & put this back on your TBR list. i have been known to do the same. :)
Thanks, Elizabeth, for these kind comments.
I don't recall him saying at any point in the book that poor people should "work harder." I have also listened to several podcasts and read interviews and thought that he was very consistent in all of them, as well as sounded very down to earth. What I heard was that the issues he describes in the book are the result of many complex factors. He gave a few specific examples of people he had worked with who seemed to not really want to work, and therefore proceeded to blame the system when they were fired. In the podcasts and interviews, when asked about solutions to the poverty, drug/alcohol problems, and violence that are prevalent in the area, he states that he thinks that it will take a combination of things such as different economic policies, increased access to and assistance with obtaining education, as well as changes in the attitudes of individuals toward education.
Traci wrote: "I don't recall him saying at any point in the book that poor people should "work harder." I have also listened to several podcasts and read interviews and thought that he was very consistent in all..."hi, traci-
here he is making a categorical comment on his people:
People talk about hard work all the time in places like Middletown. You can walk through a town where 30 percent of the young men work fewer than twenty hours a week and find not a single person aware of his own laziness.
in many of his interviews vance consistently contradicts himself as he does here. and in this slate interview in the span of half of a sentence, he goes from denying racism as a motivating factor in the Right's criticism of obama to saying it absolutely is a part.
i agree with him that changing attitudes is key and probably the single most important shift that needs to happen. so when vance is asked about trump's appeal he also needs to call out the nationalism & racism that (as we are finding) is endemic to "his people."
Even though you had issues with the book, you've piqued my interest!
Elizabeth: My phone browser is shot and won't let me "like" your review, but I did like it and concur with you completely. I hated this book and most of Vance's viewpoints espoused herein. I'm flabbergasted that I wasted the time reading it, although I guess it does provide insight on the popularity of Trump here in the Appalachians (where I live at the butt-end of). I don't see any other reason to read this book, quite honestly.
Snotchocheez wrote: "Elizabeth: My phone browser is shot and won't let me "like" your review, but I did like it and concur with you completely. I hated this book and most of Vance's viewpoints espoused herein. I'm flab..."thanks for weighing in! this book made me a bit crazy b/c it read as a bit self-congratulatory & at times seemed high-handed. i have been unable to separate out his book from his political interviews & op-ed's for the NYT. probs not fair but by presuming to be a spokesperson for "his people" on network television he blurred the lines between politics & his memoir. we are definitely outliers- this was just named a notable book of 2016 by the WP.
You def could talk me down to a 2-star for this one, Elizabeth... Hard one!
Christy wrote: "You def could talk me down to a 2-star for this one, Elizabeth... Hard one!"ha! starring reviews is so subjective; no? sometimes i will re-read a review & think why the low (or high) star rating?! i wonder if it wouldn't be better to star a book a few months after reading it & writing the review.
Marie wrote: "Even though you had issues with the book, you've piqued my interest!"marie- sorry i missed your comment! it is definitely a book that is relevant to our current political times & one that has been widely read. you could start by watching a few of J.D. Vance's interviews or reading his op-eds. at this point Hillbilly Elegy: A Memoir of a Family and Culture in Crisis & his political commentary are blurred but either will sum up his thoughts on the white working class.
I did not get a sense of political commentary in this book nor did I get a sense of social commentary. I see a man who worked very hard to get away from a dysfunctional family. He has a long road in front of him. I see a lot of anger and fear in his writing. This is not about hillbillies. It is about child abuse and neglect. Shame on his mother and grandmother.
Neil wrote: "I did not get a sense of political commentary in this book nor did I get a sense of social commentary. I see a man who worked very hard to get away from a dysfunctional family. He has a long road i..."hi, neil- thank you for commenting. it is true that his book does not contain political commentary. however, over the course (& leading up to/after the election) he started giving interviews & opining on network TV about "his people" & their reasons for supporting trump. he politicized his book & it influenced my reading experience. it became difficult to separate the two. if you look at message 12 in this thread, i linked to a couple of examples.
Neil wrote: "I did not get a sense of political commentary in this book nor did I get a sense of social commentary. I see a man who worked very hard to get away from a dysfunctional family. He has a long road i..."Neil - I think you're on to something *both* to notice the "anger and fear" in his writing and that the most salient message in the book is, indeed, about "child abuse and neglect." (Interesting only a few reviewers have really picked up on either!) I thought it was the mother and other (male) relatives, though, and not his grandparents, who were doing the abuse and neglect. You make it crystal clear to me that the real story isn't Vance's and his long-shot catapult up the class ladder but about all the children that have dysfunctional or missing social support systems (including their parents) in his Everytown, Middle America.
I am working class and have studied of it for decades. This book puts us backward into ignorance and bias. You must see through his false and over generalization.
"Jay" sent me by PM this newer (and quite critical) article about Vance's book from The New Republic, calling him a "false prophet": https://newrepublic.com/article/13871....
Christy wrote: ""Jay" sent me by PM this newer (and quite critical) article about Vance's book from The New Republic, calling him a "false prophet": https://newrepublic.com/article/13871......"Thank you, Christy! I read the New Republic article & linked to it for friends & family who also read "Hillbilly..." back when it was posted. I liked it b/c it validated everything I have been saying. ;)
Did you happen to catch this op-ed J.D. Vance recently wrote?
Specifically:
...Eventually, I achieved something roughly similar to the president’s early, personal accomplishments: a prestigious law degree, a strong professional career and a modicum of fame as a writer...
I was once again reminded of his unbelievable & unabashed ability to pat himself on the back. It was what bothered me most in his book. And the whole point really (in the end) was that more people could/should follow his example.
Also, he needs to STOP with the President Obama comparisons. Especially when he goes on to say:
...On Jan. 20, the political side of my brain will breathe a sigh of relief at Mr. Obama’s departure. I will hope for better policy from the new administration, a health reform package closer to my ideological preferences, and a new approach to foreign policy...
Don't tell me this guy hasn't politicized his book! If you are only reading his book then you are not getting the whole picture (or context) of who he is & the meaning of the book.
Agreed, Elizbeth, that the op-ed didn't endear him to those moderates "across the aisle", as it were... He did mention "race" twice, though, and only once without dismissive disdain (better than his "choice" of ignoring rustbelt racism in his book!) I grant that he was trying mightily to position himself politically moderate in a Trump world. Maybe he'll be an Undersecretary to Ben Carson?
As someone who did not grow up in the rust belt, but rather poor and white in the middle of the country, I completely understood the contradictions in people who talk about hard work, but do not live the "talk". Many working poor like my single mother worked three jobs to survive, but I also witnessed just as many like my absentee dad who would quit job after job so they did not have to pay child support, but who still had money for cigarettes and cars. And as an adult, I do not have any conservative leanings so I believe whole heartily in helping the poor, but I have witnessed that phenomenon first hand. That being said, it is impossible to work hard when you are addicted to drugs/alcohol, suffer from mental illness, have little education or have always lived a life of chaos and violence. How can one even begin to have a productive life when those are the obstacles? Those are the issues and needs of the poor that must be addressed before you can even begin to discuss working hard.
I also understood his conflict in understanding/loving/identifying with his family and neighbors, but also seeing them in a different light once he was exposed to other types of lifestyles.
The point I have witnessed the most often is the expectations and ideas the poor have about their futures. And I whole heartedly agree with what he witnessed. I don't even think this is necessarily exclusive to the poor. It is very difficult to achieve more for yourself than other's around you when you do not believe you can and do not think you deserve it. And nobody else believes in you either. And often if you try, others consider you to be "gettin above your raisin" if you even attempt it. I never once had a teacher or adult really encourage me to achieve more even though I was a good student, not in any trouble and a very reliable worker thanks to my mom's role modeling, but even she was a major obstacle when I expressed interest in pursuing higher education because of the cost. She basically told me I was on my own because she did not have any way to help me or my siblings financially.
Luckily, one summer working a" good" job in a factory was enough for me to know that I would do whatever it took to get a college degree, but I had no idea or support in achieving that goal. And I obtained my degree thanks to working many jobs, but still did not have any experience in landing jobs or really networking.
I did not get the impression from this book that he did not identify with their plight at all. But just like him, I have witnessed loved ones or friends who do not have the ability to acknowledge their role and responsibility in that plight. We all have some level of accountability when it comes to our lives. Even the poor I daresay. My mom never really accepted food stamps even though she qualified and she never once felt sorry for herself of blamed others. Even my dad. And she still believed in social programs and gave to those less fortunate. She just never expected it was someone else's job to do that for her.
Perhaps he is gunning for a political career and I don't think that is inherently a bad thing. Good on him. After what he went through as a child and how he made it out, I think he should reach as high as he can.
Just throwing out a different opinion from another poor white kid who made it out. You can sympathize with where you come from, but also not choose enable the cycle of disfunction from which you fled.
Rose wrote: "As someone who did not grow up in the rust belt, but rather poor and white in the middle of the country, I completely understood the contradictions in people who talk about hard work, but do not li..."Nice, Rose. Thanks for that.
Rose wrote: "As someone who did not grow up in the rust belt, but rather poor and white in the middle of the country, I completely understood the contradictions in people who talk about hard work, but do not li..."Good to share your story, as I did, too! This story triggers so much for many of us. I, also, had the same experience of working a horrific factory job for a year (that, also, was a "good" job to have for those without college) and was already working through college but that experience was plenty motivation to finish! (I do remember finishing Economic Anthropology in two minutes reads throughout a 12 hour night shift between burning my hands through gloves pulling dashboard parts out of injection molding machines in Dover NH! :-))
Even poor communities had wonderful schools that were fully funded throughout the 70s, but those were in seriously decline by the time Vance was born. The epidemic of hard drug addiction is a game-changer, too, isn't it? (Just last night in my first class of 25 White central Maine students only two claimed not to know either a heroin or meth addict.)
FYI Elizabeth: I think Vance was right and noting something important in his NYT op-ed this week https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/op... and I’m grateful he’s working on the opioid problem back in Ohio (and maybe do something sensible with Kasich) .Here is another harsher criticism this week from a young African-American scholar (who I'd met when he was an undergrad at lily white Univ of New Hampshire) who interestingly, seems to speak up well for poor Whites here: http://www.salon.com/2017/03/11/hillb...
Larry wrote: "I am working class and have studied of it for decades. This book puts us backward into ignorance and bias. You must see through his false and over generalization."Truth there, Larry! Just last night, a retired teacher didn't realize this element and was looking forward to reading it in her (yes, White female) bookclub, and was expecting it to be an story about the White working class akin to The Beans of Egypt, Maine. The handful of us had all read Carolyn Shute's book, but only two Hillbilly, so it was an interesting conversation of comparison. Lead me to reflect that Shute didn't generalize, just described, so ended up being more honest and true. She didn't add in bits of disparate research to jusify nor cast the working class "backward into ignorance and bias", as you note. It was interesting to think fiction as more authentic and real than this "memoir", on some level.
Rose wrote: "As someone who did not grow up in the rust belt, but rather poor and white in the middle of the country, I completely understood the contradictions in people who talk about hard work, but do not li..."thank you for commenting, rose. you helped me understand why he seemed to both criticize & defend his people.
Christy wrote: "FYI Elizabeth: I think Vance was right and noting something important in his NYT op-ed this week https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/16/op... and I’m grateful he’s workin..."thank you for the links, christy! :)
Lea wrote: "Your last paragraph says it all."thank you!
For anybody still interested, another GRer alerted me that on Sun., June 25th, at 7pm EST Vance will be interviewed by Megyn Kelly on NBC. I think progressives should pay attention for how Vance's "memoir", classified as social science and received as research, is informing the current devastation of the US welfare state. I was taken with his emotional response when describing the day his mother was arrested as a hard drug addict on the preview: http://www.nbcnews.com/megyn-kelly/vi....
I have not seen any of Vance's interviews, but him saying Trump is 'not part of the political elite' does sound like maybe Vance has gone over to the elite side just a tad more than his background! Trump may be rough politically..he is an elite to the 'T'!!! (yawn) I do feel that the author kinda skipped over the analysis of why people stay in a hole and the outside forces that help keep them there. He'll continue well in his elite lifestyle. What many comments leave out is the military service. THAT paid for his four year degree and allow him to see an array of people from different backgrounds! I think our country is underapprective of the value of serving in our military regardless of politically background. (my ex, myself, my daughter, and now my son are/have served) ANYWAY, thoughtful read and makes you ponder some things that maybe the author did NOT say!
Pj wrote: "I have not seen any of Vance's interviews, but him saying Trump is 'not part of the political elite' does sound like maybe Vance has gone over to the elite side just a tad more than his background!..."enjoyed your comments, pj! i think you are right to point to his service & his book absolutely did make me think. thank you for commenting!
I struggled so hard about what to give this book. One star? Four? I honor his love of his family, but . . .
Jan wrote: "I struggled so hard about what to give this book. One star? Four? I honor his love of his family, but . . ."I get it. Did you see that Mitch McConnell is urging him to run for the Senate in Ohio? Pretty much saw that coming...
Hmmm....interesting. True reason for the book? With the 'I did it they can, too' attitude towards his people? He'll fit right in! {saying that in jest, I think...}
Your assessment seems a little too simple. In the end, he does say that the change needs to come from the individuals and the community itself, but at the same time acknowledges how difficult that is, how the odds are stacked against them, and how close he was to the edge himself if not just enough things out of his control had not gone right for him his story would have looked a whole lot different. He even supposes that government programs might be able to help a little, but not much.
Great review! I particularly liked the last 2 sentences.
Lilo wrote: "Great review! I particularly liked the last 2 sentences."thank you, lilo! do you know about elizabeth catte & What You Are Getting Wrong About Appalachia? here is an interview worth reading. i like her very much.
Elizabeth wrote: "Lilo wrote: "Great review! I particularly liked the last 2 sentences."thank you, lilo! do you know about elizabeth catte & What You Are Getting Wrong About Appalachia? here is an ..."
Thank you, but no time, no time! The day has only 24 hours, and lately they seem like only 8.
You have to remember that Vance is a libertarian. His philosophy has no answers, at all, so he has none.
And it's worth nothing that Vance is now a venture capitalist working for a vicious sociopath named Peter Thiel. I came away from the book realizing that while Vance had the courage to look back at his life, he learned nothing from it.
Susan wrote: "You have to remember that Vance is a libertarian. His philosophy has no answers, at all, so he has none."I lean libertarian. This philosophy does have answers, it's that generally, governments are rather ineffectual at fixing a lot of humanity's problems, and therefore, generally should stay out of it. Btw... this includes moral issues as well. That point is often missed by these tea party republicans... but I digress.
His answer is that the cycle of domestic violence and trauma that these communities endure are creating children that are less capable of handling their adult relationships. And that these community members should try to better themselves somehow.
I too noticed the lack of dialogue about race in this book. He seems willing to look at his culture with candid honesty- why leave out this part?
Ronda wrote: "I too noticed the lack of dialogue about race in this book. He seems willing to look at his culture with candid honesty- why leave out this part?"Yes. That bothered me as well. I doubt that the run ins with CPS, police and law, would have gone the same way if they had not been white. They were very privileged to have the ability to reshape their family as they wished (with grandparents acting as primary caregivers whenever they felt uncomfortable living with the person that had custody).
Ha this is exactly the point where I decided to ditch the book. His view of humanity is just too different from mine for me to gain much from his book.
