Sarah’s Comments (group member since Nov 10, 2010)

Sarah’s comments from the Nothing But Reading Challenges group.

Carol wrote: "Oh, wow! Jon as Lyanna's secret baby by Rhaegar? That would be a cool twist. I never thought of that. lol The timeline is about right, it's been almost 14 years since Robert killed Rhaegar, right? ..."


Hmm... now I don't know what to think! I'm not sure now if Jon is Ned's or not but then it still makes me wonder about Ashara. What's the deal with her existence having to be a secret at Winterfell??


Also, wouldn't Catelyn have mentioned something about Lyanna's funeral being around the time Jon was born. If Lyanna had a baby and her body came back to Winterfell I think there would have been more information on it. I understand Ned would have wanted others to believe that Jon was his but I don't see those two events adding up. It mentions he was gone for a year and came back with Jon and Jon's wetnurse who were moved in to Winterfell before Catelyn got there with Robb. Do we know anything about the time of Lyanna's death and Jon's birth? Possibly, the time of year? It's too much speculation right now.

There were a lot of responses before I got to answer the questions so it was hard not to look at what everyone said! But I managed!

1) Before you found out what happened, were you apprehensive about Bran climbing all over Winterfall, especially when you discovered he was crawling the outer walls fraught with loose mortar? Did his direwolf cub’s growl cause you to have a sense of impending doom?

Unfortunately, I had watched the show so I knew what was going to happen, especially since the show and the book follow so closely. But there were clues to Bran's climbing being precarious.

2) Did it take you long to figure out who the man and woman were whom Bran overheard? Did you surmise both their identities at the same time, or just one?

Again, from the show I knew who they were. But also from hearing them talk I figured out who it was. I would have figured out the Queen first.

3) We learn from their dialogue that these two wished the King ill; did you think eavesdropping was an effective way to learn this? “That frighten cow shared Jon Arryn’s bed.” What do you deduce from this statement?

I think eavesdropping is a very effective way to learn of their ill intent towards Robert. We do not get their point of view at all in the book so we would have to rely on other characters for information. I believe the "frightened cow" is Lysa, Catelyn's sister.

4) Since Bran is a POV character in this story, it would be surprising if he died so early in the story; therefore, what condition do you think he will be in after the push? (Any comments about the push?)

They already speculate that he will be crippled, which I believe it true. I am very surprised he survived but since he does have other chapters it is safe to assume he will live. I couldn't believe how heartless Jaime Lannister was to push Bran off like that but then again he is trying to protect himself and his sister. Imagine what kind of repercussions there would be from that type of information getting out to everyone. Jaime and his sister (can't think of her name right now) would both be killed. The children would be put into turmoil and their parentage would be questioned.

5) Were you surprised Tyrion slapped Prince Joffrey not once, but twice? What do you think his reasons were for emphatically insisting Prince Joffrey put aside his contemptuous attitude and seek out Lord and Lady Stark?

I wasn't very surprised because although Tyrion is a dwarf he is still Joffrey's elder. Joffrey needs to learn respect no matter what. I believe Tyrion is trying to show Joffrey that when he is King he will have to ignore his personal feelings for common courtesy. He won't be able to act however he feels like acting.

6) How much do you think Tyrion knows about the secrets of Queen Cersei and her twin, Ser Jaime, the Kingslayer?

I think Tyrion knows there is something going on. He is very good at observing people. Especially, when Jaime and Cersei glanced at each other while talking about Bran's condition. He noticed there was something there right away.

7) How did you feel about Jon Snow defying Catelyn in order to say good-bye to Bran? Why do you think she told him about her prayers?

It was about time Jon stood up to Catelyn. He probably figured he wouldn't see her again for a long time so it wouldn't matter what she thought. He couldn't get in trouble for it because he was leaving right after. I think Catelyn told Jon because of his status. As a bastard he has little to no say in anything and I think people would be less inclined to believe anything he said, specifically if it were about Catelyn since I'm sure most know about her animosity towards him. Plus, Catelyn too knew he was leaving soon. There was no harm in telling him.

8) Forget Viserus’ brooding boorishness at the wedding; to me, Magister Illyrio seems overly invested in Daenerys’ behavior. Are his reasons of a pedantic, prurient, or purely solicitous nature?

I think he just wants to do right by them. I don't think he wants them to be led astray because they don't know how to act around the Dothraki. Maybe, he thinks there is something to gain by being on their good side, by helping them. Could he get a title or money once Viserys becomes King (if it ever happens)?

9) Are the three dragon eggs gifted to Dany by Magister Illyrio still viable? If so, does he know this? Are his actions and gift-giving consistent with his moral nature and personality?

He said the dragon eggs became stone so I don't believe those are viable. I believe the dragons are extinct. I haven't seen enough of Magister Illyrio to know if his actions/gift-giving are consistent with his moral nature/personality.

10) Looks like Khal Drago can only communicate to Daenerys with one word, but he uses it effectively, no? Comments.

I think it was very effective. I believe he knew that in some way he could comfort her and make her more comfortable with the situation. There was no way out of it, in order for the marriage to be seen as complete it would have to be consummated no matter her age. At this time it is not uncommon for young girls even at Dany's age to be married/having children. Also, I think it was very considerate of him to take her away in private because the Dothraki do not see sex in a shameful/sinful way they would not have blinked an eye if he pulled her off the horse and started right then and there. I think Dany appreciated being alone with him. It was good that he took it slowly because she is young, and she was crying. It could be possible that he has seen the way Viserys acts and takes pity on Dany. Just because he can't communicate effectively or understand what they are saying he does have eyes and he can probably see things no one else would notice. He has to rely on observations.

Okay, I thought so after the second section we read! Thanks Carol!

Thanks Sandy!

But if Jon Snow were Lyanna's child, then how come no one would be allowed to say Ashara's name? Why would she be so significant for Ned?

Lisa Kay wrote: "@Sarah: #1"Maybe knowing will only perpetuate what will happen." I was trying to figure out a way to say this. Thanks!
#2 "...the man Ned once knew is no longer the man who is King." Very true!!..."

I have no idea how she got the fever but maybe it has some weird connection to Rhaegor that will be brought up later? I have no clue. We do think very much alike! :D

Lisarenee wrote: "So here is the line that made me think something happened between Rhaegor and Lyanna:

"I vowed to kill Rhaegor for what he did to her."

They were discussing Lyanna at this point. Page 44 in Eddar..."

I didn't even notice that. Hmm... that does make me wonder what happened... do you think it will come up again in another chapter?

It does make me wonder why he wanted to kill Rhaegor so badly. He even mentions dreaming of killing Rhaegor every night and that a thousand deaths isn't enough. If Rhaegor was only the heir and that's why he wanted him dead then it makes no sense to want to kill him every night. Maybe Rhaegor threatened Robert in some way?

I didn't realize there was an appendix in the back with all the Houses. Thanks Lisarenee for pointing that out! I would have never looked back there until I finished the book.

Again, I responded without looking at anyone's responses.

1. We now know what was so significant about how the direwolf was killed. The fact the antler was the means of death suggests the King, whose symbol is an antler, must somehow cause the death of Eddard (aka Ned) leaving his children orphans. The question is should this be seen as a warning as to what could happen or a prophecy of what is to come? What do you think? Knowing what could happen can the outcome be changed?

I think it can only be changed if they see it as a warning. From what we've read so far Catelyn is the only one who seems to be worried but she's not voicing her fears. She is keeping them to herself. If she really thinks there is something wrong, I think she would tell Ned. I'm not sure that it could really change anything though. Maybe knowing will only perpetuate what will happen.

2. Knowing how close the King and Ned were do you think Catelyn was right to encourage her husband to become the King's Hand?

I think Catelyn is right, she doesn't want Ned to be disrespectful to the King and she is right that the man Ned once knew is no longer the man who is King.

3. Do you think Jon Snow's jealousy of his trueborn siblings will cause trouble in the future?

I don't think so because Jon does care for some of them, particularly Arya. Plus if he does join the black he won't see them ever again.

4. Were you surprised that Catelyn would ask that Jon either go with her husband or become one of the brother's of the Night's Watch?

I think she was being overly cruel. I understand she's jealous that Ned slept with another women and cares so much for Jon, but I think she should have let him stay. Yet, because of the time period she is not wrong to suggest those things. Jon is not her son and she holds no responsibility for him so it would be up to Ned to either take him to court or send him to the Nights Watch.

5. Walls are usually put up for a reason. Any ideas as to why the Wall was put up thousands of years ago? Do you suspect it had something to do with the Others? What do you the the Others are?

I think the Wall has everything to do with the Others. There is some element of magic/paranormal activity and the Others would be that element. Perhaps they believe if they cut off the Others then they will eventually become extinct or there will be no way for them to get over the wall to attack people. Yet, they've said that Others haven't been seen for thousands of years, why still have a wall? Also, why not believe the ravings of a man who claims to have seen the Others? It is possible that the Others is just an old belief that has become apart of common sayings but no one really believes in it. If that's the case then people have become naive.

6. What do you think of Tyrion's advice to Jon? "Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you."

I think that's great advice especially coming from someone who has had to deal with having a "weakness". Jon's weakness is that he is a bastard and as long as he embraces that and is able to understand that people will use it against him, he will be stronger for it. Tyrion says he is seen as a bastard because he is a dwarf, he knows what Jon is going through and I believe he wants to help him. (In the show Tyrion is my favorite character.) Jon is going to be a man soon by the standards of the time period and he already wants to become apart of the Night's Watch so he needs to prepare himself for the world. He already knows that being a bastard will be used against him because Catelyn uses it against him. She doesn't bother trying to get to know him because he isn't her son or her responsibility.

7. What character(s) do you find the most interesting so far?

I particularly like Daenarys, Arya, Tyrion, Jon, and Ned. I find Catelyn to be too cruel, and I think since she's been at Winterfell for 15 years she needs to get over the fact that she misses her home. Winterfell became her home when she married Ned.

8. Thoughts on why the Lannisters would want to get rid of Jon Arryn and then foster his son?

Maybe Jon knew something about the Lannisters that they didn't want anyone to find out. Maybe they want to foster his son and make him into the Hand of the King but he would side with the Lannisters. They would have to get him while he's young before he can form his own opinion.

9. Sounds like Rhaegor did something to Ned's sister. Any thoughts on what that was?

I don't know if Rhaegor did anything to Ned's sister. I think the reason Robert wanted to kill him was because he was the heir to the Targaryan throne. Yet, it is highly possible that Rhaegor did something. I just have no idea what. Where was Lyanna when she became sick? I don't recall it saying where she was just that she wanted to be taken back to Winterfell. Rhaegor was already married with a child when he died so I can't see him in the running for marrying Lyanna either.

ETA: Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne which (according to the map in the front of the book) wasn't near where Rhaegor was since he was at The Trident, right? I should probably look at the map more often!

From what I remember in the show I think he did touch her in some way that was inappropriate. I don't remember how though. I don't believe the show mentions that they usually marry brother to sister either.

I think the reason they don't use a young actress is because of the viewers. Honestly, too many people would become uninterested in the show or they would complain. I think it was just easier for the producers/writers/directors/whomever to find someone older. The only ones who would know that the character is really younger are the ones who have read the books before. I think there are too many people who are new to the series because of the show to know better.

I just meant thrown off because of the comparison to the show, but it doesn't surprise me that she's getting married so young.

I was thrown off by her being 13 because in the show (not that adaptations are always accurate or anything) she looks and acts older.

Good point Lisa Kay! It would be more advantageous to have a "pure-blood" sister. I think he would still torment her in private though. He would threaten her to not tell anyone. She is too afraid of him to disobey. Even if there was some question about it he would punish Dany for it. Viserys is sadistic, I would almost say he would punish her and tell her why he was doing it. OR she would know some how why. Just like she knows he blames her for their mother's death, even though there is no possible way for it to be her fault.

I don't think she would ever have the courage to disobey him unless she understood that he couldn't control her or that she would suffer no consequence. But at this point in time he controls everything for her. He even had a say in what she wore to meet Khal Drogo (I believe). Plus, he uses physical force whenever he wants to.

You've given me a lot to think about, Lisa Kay! It's a good thing! I don't think I've tried to tear apart a book this much. :)

Maybe they aren't marrying each other because there is nothing to gain?

If I were Dany I would consider it a blessing to not have to marry Viserys. I would gladly marry Khal Drogo.

It's tough to tell but if she were raped I think Viserys would have known and I think he would have rubbed it in Dany's face. There is no way he would have let her live it down especially since their mom died giving birth to her on top of it.

I didn't even think of that. But I think Dany mentions that when they left she was just a "quickening" in her mom. I would assume that means her mom was pregnant when they fled but barely so.

ETA:

"Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb" (30).

Is the Usurper Robert? The King that Ned Stark is preparing for at the end of Catelyn's chapter.

Haha Lisa Kay! That would have been great but she fears him too much to stand up to him. I would have loved to see the reaction!

That's true, but Dany also says he resents her, because their mom died giving birth to Dany. Could it be a form of revenge, while also getting something for himself? He doesn't want to have to take care of her especially since they don't have any money. Maybe there is a dowry involved? Not just getting a fierce army.

That's a great point but he can still lead a comfortable life. There are still plenty of people who are taking care of him and Dany. They treat him like he has status even though he has none. I think this is a last-ditch effort to get money. That's what he needs because it says that they're running out. But I think it might be more than status. If it were all about status he could have some just by being the brother-in-law to Khal Drogo. He wouldn't "need" to claim the throne.