Pam’s
Comments
(group member since Dec 29, 2016)
Pam’s
comments
from the Our Shared Shelf group.
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Grace wrote: "What happens when a woman is forced to choose between her country and her family?.."Thank you Grace, but according to the Group Rules all members are to refrain from self promotion. Please remove the post or the moderators will remove it for you.
https://www.weforum.org/reports/gende...The World's Economic Forum released it's Gender Gap Report for 2020. The report reviews "153 countries on their progress towards gender parity in four dimensions: Economic Participation and Opportunity, Educational Attainment, Health and Survival and Political Empowerment. In addition, this year’s report examines gender gap prospects in the professions of the future."
Sooo what are the results? Well... good news bad news.
Good news:
"Education attainment as well as health and survival enjoy much closer to parity (96.1% and 95.7% respectively)."
Bad News: "One important area of concern is that of economic participation and opportunity. This is the only dimension where progress has regressed. Here, the figures are sobering, with a deteriorating situation forcing gender parity to a lowly 57.8%, which in time represents a massive 257 years before gender parity can be achieved."
But "it will take 95 years to close the gender gap in political representation, with women in 2019 holding 25.2% of parliamentary (lower-house) seats and 21.2% of ministerial positions."
It's important to note that the data shows how long things would take right now . The future is still mutable. So for all those who marched today in the Women's March, this is why you did it. Everyone who is pursuing more training or learning - keep doing it. Keep buying services and goods from women owned business.
And if you get into a good position; remember to use your power to empower others.
So for all the policy nerds, stat buffs, and lover of beautiful data... check out this link. Thanks to Evgeny for sharing this link.
https://www.weforum.org/reports/gende...
Hi Samantha. OSS is going through a bit of a change right now. A January book has not been selected at this time.
Read this to learn more.
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Troll in the thread!Trolll!
I thought you all should know.
Thank you Kim. That is very encouraging to hear. And to answer your question. Nope. The Jan./Feb. Book for 2020 has not yet been announced. Fingers crossed it will happen this upcoming week.
James wrote: "This is actually a great post and i agree with a lot of it. However, you can virtually apply this to any celebrity, athlete, musician, or politician who uses their platform to speak or preach about social and political issues."I agree with your sentiments 100%. Anyone with a platform with followers needs to be mindful of what they say and be the big enough person to show growth and that they are fallible.
James wrote: "You can have different belief systems while still accepting and supporting people for who they are despite the difference in beliefs"Hmmm. I think this gets into semantics and community definitions.
I think the accepted term is supporter. This is someone who is outside the community who accepts the community.
Where as an ally is someone who eats, breathes, and lives for the community.
Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts! All of your ideas really helped shape this situation and allowed me to understand your different perspectives. @Emma; you're right that we are loosing some other members. (I miss Meerder). Like you said we don't know if anyone left because life got busy or if someone here made them feel less than welcome. I do know of a few people who left because OSS became toxic, but not everyone.
@Florian; I'm curious if others feel they have to watch their tongue too.
@Gerd/Soscha: Now, Rebecca Solnit's quote from Whose Story Is This " 'The hardest thing to reconcile is that just because you have good intentions doesn't mean it's your time to have a voice' Chris Evans"
I think this quote is applicable to EVERYONE regardless of gender. (And I know this is weird as I'm discussing letting people talk) but I think while OSS is a forum for everyone to share their thoughts there are definitely moments when we all need to ask questions as opposed to sharing our opinions.
I definitely learned this when I opened my mouth when discussing Thom's book "Fierce Femms and Notorious Liars." I mentioned to a good friend that it was so weird for me to be on the side that needed to be quiet and needed to listen to someone else. Too long I felt I was being shushed for being a woman that I didn't even realize that I was acting just like groups that I fought against like the MRA. It was... disquieting to say the least.
I can only imagine that it's similar to others on this forum who may also be in positions of power or socially accepted talkers that its a weird transition to be told it's time to let others talk. (she says as she rambles for another 5 paragraphs).
@Theo. Thanks! I'm a little weary of anything that has Jordan Peterson's name attached or highlighted as good opinion due to a video I saw of him previously. But I will give this a second watching. (The description says it cites him)
@Safia In my opinion, there are as many definitions of feminism as there are feminists in the world Do you think we need to define (and therefore restrict) the types of feminism here or just realize that this place has all kinds?
@Laurie: My thoughts exactly!
@Molly: I have been on this forum for a few years and the only people who know Emma Watson personally are two of the mods and 1 poster who identifies as a woman. I think you may have incorrect information regarding a dude knowing EW. To that end, the people who do know her also don't have special powers - unless you count being a volunteer mod and having to deal with all of us as being special.
I appreciate this comment I feel that weird feeling that Group rules are only for some people but not for every body If you ever do see someone getting special treatment, feel free to point it out to the mods. (Yay special powers of conflict resolution management)
Even the introduction thread is becoming weird, why is that people need to welcome others like that..? Like the mods doesn't we do Oh, that's because the introduction is the community's to own and to welcome others who have joined us. As you may have seen; the mods don't start a lot of forums or discussion threads here save for the ones regarding the business of OSS (book announcements, pay it forward, etc) and regulating the chat under the guidelines that they established. And again - been here for years so I've talked to a few of them before - they have lives of their own. Some are moms. Some are grad students. Etc. they cannot dedicate hours and hours to the forum. But we're fortunate that they stay out of love and responsibility to OSS.
But it's the community - the 20,000+ members that we have that are the ones who bring up questions, share their experiences, and bring this place to life.
So to everyone here... should we ask the mods to change the guidelines explicitly saying that man hate is not tolerated? Should we just make a conscious pledge between all of us that we'll try to ask more questions and hear each other out?
Bringing this topic back because I'm worried about how OSS as a forum is approaching our members who identify as male. I witnessed some tensions (unconscious or directed) with our male identifying members who happens to disagree with someone who identifies as a woman. This has led to people leaving or previous posters going silent. Winston. Gerd. James. Robert. Ross, to name a few.
This goes against my version of feminism which believes
That everyone is hurt under patriarchy in one form or another and that only when we are all truly equal is when all of this pain will be just a memory.
-Its about improving the lives of those who identify as female, those identify as male, and everyone in-between.
- That being born with a uterus means you can speak your truth about Feminism as much as someone born without one because feminism is such a wide ranging concept that affects life, death, voting right, health, environment, property, etc...
Our founder, Emma herself champions equality. And yet it doesn't feel like that when we get to the forum. We are stronger and more effective together than we are when we attack or belittle other members of our cause. By being here, IMPO, you are a feminist and you're on the feminist side against those who think of gendered superiority.
Now... This isn't to say that we shouldn't ask questions or share the ways we are different. I can disagree with your opinion or make a suggestion of a situation that differs from yours. But I cannot argue about your experience. And I hope we all remember that.
What does everyone else feel?
Do you agree or do you disagree?
And to everyone on this board (regardless of identity) I apologize if any of my comments or strong opinions made you feel unwelcome
Screen saving now because I loved this thread so much. Sad to see it go, but thankful that you told us.
Great interview by Emma and fascinating answers from Solenit. Thanks for sharing!
Heh. Right!
And good! Im glad that we're both enjoying learning new things in this conversation.Peter wrote: "I still see the final image and spoken line as representing empowerment. Do you?
If by final image and like you mean (view spoiler)
Jordan wrote: "I am wondering though is there a set date that books are discussed or it’s just as comments arrive on the threads?No set date, per say Jordan. Given that it is an online book club with people from around the world, there is no hard fast rule restricting when people can read the books or start a discussion thread or comment.
That said, you'll find most activity occurs during the two months that the book/books are featured. Right now in Nov/Dec. 2019 we're reading Rebecca Solnit's "Whose Story is This" and "Cinderella Liberator" so most comments will be for those books more than to say Pachinko or My Life on the Road.
A lot of traction also comes if the author is meeting with Emma or if they agreed to answer our -OSS generated questions. Which happens typically after the first month passes
Otherwise there are miscellaneous topics that get some traction.
That is a solid point Peter. Thank you. And to totally be that person... (view spoiler)
So definitely one step forward for the consent conversation. But two steps back for creating a female character whose sole purpose was beholde to a male story line.
Love a League of their Own.
Emma wrote: "124 is a "spiteful house" and the neighbors avoid it because it is haunted. In addition, [spoilers removed] How did you deal with the themes of ghosts/spirits in Beloved? (Especially if you don't b..."I read it to be of "Beloved," the baby that haunted the house 124, actually possessed the body of the stranger whom they found by the side of the road. That person had a fever or whatnot and either transpired naturally or couldn't keep Beloved from taking over. Hence why when we have Beloved's POV she is constantly cold and going crazy with all sorts of voices in her head was either from the unnaturalness of a ghost possessing a body or the woman she possessed trying to fight back.
Now all of that which is discussed above was all pre-TRoS. Rey's story from TFA is then hijacked in TLJ to TRoS into saving a murderer's soul because there is some good in him.. now mind you... Lucas laid out that he wanted all of he trilogies to follow the same basic cadence and the switching sides at the end was always in the cards. Vader becomming Anakain, Anakain becoming Vader, and Kylo Ren becomming Ben Solo. Always in the cards.
But the difference is that we have a calm, controlled, monk like Luke who is defying some old dead ghosts that his father can be saved...I.e. he has a stake in whether or not Vader is redeemed. But Rey is constantly angrily fighting against a stalker guy who she has no blood or family ties to. She has no reason or need to save Kylo. His mother, father, uncle, - the people who should be concerned with his immortal force ghost self- and all her friends are against Rey trying to save him. And yet, for plot purposes.... she still does.
Luke's story is that of "overcoming" his father and escaping his own fear that he has the same blood, maybe he too could "fall" to the dark side.
Now...take a step back from Adam Driver's heart squeezing smile and that beautiful body. In this trilogy we are shown that if a girl loves a bad guy enough; if she is brave enough, kind enough, force heals him enough, he will turn back into the Disney Prince she knows is under all that blood from innocents. The last two movies were all about Rey fighting her own instincts, her two best friends, and biases of a monster and seeing that hey..he is human with a history. (a history that includes him torturing her two guy friends, killing her father figure, kidnapping her and torturing her, negging her, trapping her and manipulating her again only to betray her to his boss who tortures her, shooting at her mentor's ship causing the mentor to go into a coma, and countless other stuff. But you know...let the past die.) ("Don't hold those things against me baby, I was drunk that night, it wasn't me. You know I would never hurt you" - And yes, I'm heavily implying that this relationship is verbally abusive and not at all healthy, but it's okay because he wuvs her and is hot.)
Mind you, this comes from the same girl who in the first episode is established as telling Finn that she doesn't need a guy to hold her hand in an emergency and that she can save herself if need be.
That strong independent girl was pretty much scrapped in this film. Even the work done in TLJ about Rey embracing her both light and dark natures was abandoned. She goes on her own mystical force moment in TLJ, just like Luke, that shows that her biggest fear wasn't in fighting Kylo but was the fear of abandonment. (Because Jedi is an allegory for defeating fear not letting it hold power over you, where the Sith are about giving into it, letting that fear control your actions) The whole concept in TLJ was that anyone from Rose Tico to the boy in the stable to some scavenger with no name parents could be a hero was scrapped in TRoS.
Because she (view spoiler) Suddenly in TRoS it's not abandonment that is her biggest fear; it's becoming married to the bad guy and being bad herself. (Just don't get married, stay away from the dude. Problem solved...)
Which is why...again...if her biggest fear is marrying the bad guy, who spends most of he movie running away from him or trying to fight him, it makes even less sense (again removing how dreamy Adam Driver is) that her character would kiss him let alone go to where she went at the end.
(view spoiler)
No problem Mary, thanks for joining in this discussion khadejah wrote: "Pam wrote: "So whilst I do disagree with some of your points, I do believe that the film tried to portray feminism through terribly written characters, causing it to fail."
That's my exact concern. As a writer... Your entire job is writing the characters in the plot. Bad writing is on them. And as JJ has the writing credit for this movie... I can blame him.
And further... C-3PO is one of the more annoying characters from the Star Wars story, can we agree? However, he is still necessary for the story. The reason being is that he is an extremely useful plot devise both because of his annoying habits of antagonizing the main heroes (comic relief) and because he has a special, useful skill i.e. language /translating. He is a beloved character because the plot needs him despite his flaws. And it still uses him across all 9 movies because he isn't a prop.
There are no bad characters...only bad writing that doesn't know what to do with characters and how they fit.
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Ok. So in writing there is a thing called power creep where characters outstrip the previous characters limits. I.e. Rey vs Luke vs Anakin. Luke shows up and Star Wars is a cult phenomenon. It's ok that he is so bad power wise because the writers are trying to explain how this mystical religion works and everything he does is new and shiny and never before seen.
When it's Anakin's turn in the second series... He is a magnitude more powerful. The film team also feels the need to show NEW moves to keep the audience thrilled and engaged. And since his movie takes place in the peak of this mystical religion... We accept that he and his good buddies will have better fighting skills and dexterity with the force previously unseen. Even if that long, over the top drawn out force battle between Anakin and Obi Wan was criticized. But the writers/ producers did it because it would look cool. With me?
Now, after 3 decades Star Wars has seen plenty of things done from it's force users from the comics, the extended universe books, the video games, and the cartoon series. So the producers were in a bind to show something NEW that wasn't done before in any of these other installments for die hard fans. Congratulations... you have power creep. Where you feel you have no choice but to up the ante in order to keep fans engaged. This time around, the producers also decided on having a female protagonist. So enter Mary Sue Rey.
Not the character's fault they came last. That's all the writers and the producers for giving in to this temptation that we needed MORE. Now add to the fact that the writers/ producers misunderstand Grrrl Power. Because true Grrrl Power doesn't ask for Mary Sues who don't need training. Grrl Power just asks for a seat at the table. Grrl Power gives us Ahsoka Tano, Barriss Offee, and Asajj Ventress from the Clone Wars TV series, it gives us Hera and Sabine from Rebels. Characters that have agency, and backstory, and dreams beyond bad guy vs good guy. All of these characters, in the TV / animated version, have had story arcs where they have failed, had bouts of arrogance and humility, grief and stubborn refusal to give in. Grrl Power handled correctly gives you fleshed out characters. Handled incorrectly, it gives you this misconception that strong female characters are not allowed to fail.
Now, power creep would have happened if Rey was a male character too cause look at Kylo. We get to hand wave that Snoke must have taught him something...but in canon even Anakin-The Chosen One- Skywalker didn't have that much control when it came to mind reading, holding laser bursts, etc. The difference between the female Rey and her male counter part and the forgiveness given to him, is that the audience sees Kylo Ren's tantrum and him failing to control himself. Its brash and stupid AND makes complete sense for his character. Kylo Ren is allowed to fail. He is allowed to fall apart on screen, because his entire arc is built around him learning to control himself and stop trying to be something he isn't. and therefore his super awesome force power is believable.
But in the last fight in TFA a girl showing patience, intuition, following directions, standing up for her fallen friends, and controlling her emotions - things we are socialized into doing - is regarded as cheating.
Here be spoilers friends, so if you haven't shelled out money to our corporate overlords, don't read this thread! (view spoiler)
