Katelyn’s Comments (group member since Jan 07, 2016)

Katelyn’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Jennifer wrote: "I noticed something interesting, in the introduction she says that you can't understand another country if you don't understand your own (sorry I can't find the exact quote). And the first chapter ..."

That's very astute. I think you're absolutely right.

My biggest struggle as a white, able-bodied feminist has been toeing the line between reminding others about the intersectional issues that need to be recognized, while also making sure that I am not speaking for those minority groups.

It's like when male feminists use that privilege to acknowledge the importance of the cause, it is a wonderful thing, but it is counterproductive if all of the male voices are drowning out the women because of their privilege.

I think the first step is acknowledging the privilege you have despite other challenges and using it to give the floor to women of color, LGBT women, disabled women, etc., and make sure that their voices aren't being drowned out. This is what I've been told in the past is the best strategy for those of us who have more privilege than others!

I agree, the dedication really moved me and made me feel powerful just for having read it! I appreciate your connection of that to the quote about her mother and selfhood. I had the same thought.

I think, as least for me in the U.S., we are really only recently achieving a level of acceptance of women as mothers AND individuals. And it also depends on your class/occupation. My family is working class, so my mother still worked. But if she hadn't needed to work, I don't know what she would have chosen to do... I think she likes work for the social aspect, so maybe she would have worked anyway, but if she had grown up in an upperclass family, she may have thought differently about it. Not to mention, an entirely different set of social opportunities would have been open to her. And for a working class mother, when working is a necessity, can it truly be considered indicative of selfhood?

As a graduate student, I noticed that most of my women professors had children, and that was always impressive to me. I think the intellectual class, though there is still sexism (and all the other isms!) in academia, has found a balance between individuality and motherhood, but it's also the kind of job where you have greater control over your schedule and a lot of work can be done from home.

I'm currently wading my way through The Feminine Mystique and it really casts these conflicting identities into sharp relief.

I think it is pretty clear that the major anxiety with abortion is a mother choosing selfhood over motherhood, even though that's not necessarily always the case, as many women still plan to get pregnant at a better time, or are already mothers. Perhaps it is also because through abortion, a woman also gains temporary control over fatherhood, which is threatening to the status quo even if the individual man involved is supportive or doesn't want to be a father at all.

1. The Modern Girl Around the World: Consumption, Modernity, and Globalization ed. Alys Eve Weinbaum
2. The Straight State by Margot Canaday
3. Only Paradoxes to Offer: French Feminists and the Rights of Man by Joan Wallach Scott
4. Gender and Jim Crow by Glenda Elizabeth Gilmore
5. Practicing Modernity: Female Creativity In The Weimar Republic by Christiane Schönfeld
6. Gender Trouble by Judith Butler
7. Bodies That Matter by Judith Butler
8. Crow After Roe: How "Separate But Equal" Has Become the New Standard in Women's Health and How We Can Change That by Robin Marty and Jessica Mason Pieklo
9. Playing the Whore: The Work of Sex Work Melissa Gira Grant
10. Girls to the Front: The True Story of the Riot Grrrl Revolution by Sara Marcus
11. Exile & Pride: Disability, Queerness, & Liberation by Eli Clare
20. Feminism and Affect at the Scene of Argument: Beyond the Trope of the Angry Feminist by Barbara Tomlinson
12. Songs in Black and Lavender: Race, Sexual Politics, and Women's Music by Eileen M. Hayes
13. A Feminist Ethnomusicology: Writings on Music and Gender by Ellen Koskoff

Some of these I haven't read yet, so it's possible they are not as "dense" as the titles suggest, and I am too lazy right now to try and figure it out. I figure the more title suggestions the better for the likes of us ;)

I wonder if there is a Goodreads group dedicated to reading denser feminist texts... I've been looking at other feminist book groups but most do a fiction and non-fiction, with the non-fiction usually being more journalistic or biography. I like to have a variety of books to read, so it would be great if I had a denser read to discuss in addition to the wonderful dialogues here about My Life on the Road. If there isn't a group like that, would there be interest in people joining if I started one?

Sara wrote: "Anyone in Chicago? :)"
Me!

There's another topic here where more people are sharing their location. It's a bit long and people are talking about making their own groups (Like the one for Seattle that Clarissa just posted).
Local meet-ups for book discussion

In part IV of chapter 2 of My Life on the Road, Gloria Steinem discusses the Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) and the Houston convention.

It was first proposed in 1923, but failed in Congress. In the 70s, despite passing in both houses of Congress and a three-year extension to 1982, it was not ratified by enough state legislatures.

The ERA has since been proposed in every Congress since, but it still has not been added to the Constitution.

I'm interested in discussing the implications of this. I also think the dynamics of the Houston Convention and counterconventions are still reflected in the rhetoric surrounding the ERA today, so I'm wondering what you all think about that?

For those who do not live in the U.S., does your country have a specific law like the ERA that guarantees equality for all regardless of gender? What are the implications of it (or its non-existence)?

Here's a link that details the history of the ERA, the strategies currently being undertaken in attempts to get it ratified, and other useful information: equalrightsamendment.org

Adam wrote: "You are pretty brilliant you know? Hahaha.

Yes, that's what I supposed, too. I mean, there are lots of famous female performers and singers, so it would be absurd to say women are not musically ta..."

Aw, thanks! It is my area of expertise, so I'm glad to have been able to bring it to the table on this group!

Yeah, conductors are also almost always men. Notable exceptions who are currently active are Marin Alsop (Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, frequently guest conducts many international orchestras, also happens to recently started working at my alma mater!) and JoAnn Falletta (Buffalo Philharmonic, Virginia Symphony).

I don't know any others off the top of my head, but a quick Google search suggests that most other famous female conductors work outside the U.S., so that explains why I don't know of them.

SUCH a great idea. Thanks for making this topic. I fear most of the books I've suggested for the club might be too theoretical/academic. I had a feeling that most people would not want to wade through dense material, but I wanted to post them anyway in case the titles caught anyone's eye. So this is perfect! I'll repost my list here when I get a chance later!

Agnes wrote: "somebody famous ok:

-Sappho she was mostly poet but she also make music.
-Emmy Wegener
-Maria Szymanowska
-Countess Clementine ( Klementyna Grabowska )
- Marie Antoinette
- Yoko Ono - she start fr..."

I don't believe Fanny is usually credited with the composition of Lied Ohne Worte. She wrote many similar pieces that Felix said inspired him to compose it, though, and one was dedicated to her.

I have a master's degree in musicology, and I'm with you, there are not enough famous female composers of Western art music. The main problem is that women were not trained as men were. Upperclass women were often taught to play instruments, sing, etc. But that was mostly to make them more marketable as potential wives, and as entertaining hosts. It just reinforced their status as objects

However, I'd say that "famous" is subjective. Within the field, there are many more that we would consider famous. But according to the general population, if you ask people to name composers off the top of their heads, they're probably going to name white men, and it's even surprising when they name someone other than Bach, Mozart, or Beethoven!

This is also because there is a greater focus on composition than there is on performance, conducting, etc. Most musicians who were trained in Western music composition historically were white men. This is mostly because it was often taught in a mentor-mentee format, so you have a famous composer teaching one-on-one the men who will most likely become the next generation of famous composers. Women we not really invited to participate in that cycle.

Hildegard von Bingen is one of the most famous early music composers, regardless of gender.

Adam, Clara Schumann was actually MORE famous than Robert during her life, however, it was not for composition but for piano. She was the most famous pianist arguably in the world. She was revolutionary in that she continued to have a career as a performer after she was married, and she even performed for large audiences while pregnant, which was considered very taboo. If Clara hadn't actively performed Robert's compositions (very few other people would because they thought it was too strange), it is unlikely that we would know his name today.

Amy Beach is certainly a famous 20th-century composer. When we think of famous classical composers, we mainly think of those from past centuries whose works are played regularly. But 20th-century composers of any gender tend to be programmed much less often, so I think given that context, Beach is definitely famous.

Fanny Mendelssohn was rumored to be a better composer than her brother Felix, but she was prevented from pursuing a career as she grew older. Many experts believe that she published some compositions under her brother's name. Her compositions have been programmed with more frequency over the past couple of decades as interest in women composers has increased.

Those are just a few! And I hope some of the information at the top of my post is useful :)

EDIT: That list of 50 is pretty good. However, Phil Goulding does not have any real expertise in music, so it makes sense that his list reflects a popular conception of who the greatest composers are. It also has a disproportionate focus on the 18th and 19th centuries, which is a common problem even within the study of music.

"The" dictionary is a fascinating document. People often use it as evidence, as the "be-all, end-all," as an infallible tool. But the fact of the matter is that the dictionary is just as susceptible to cultural bias as anything else. As it is written by people, it reflects culture and cultural change. That's why there are discrepancies like adventurer/adventuress. The manufacturer decided to define those words that way. Why? Is that how they are actually used?

There has definitely been a shift away from gendered job titles, at least when it comes to words that don't specify man/woman (businessman/woman, for example). We see "server" used more frequently than waiter/waitress.

Actor/actress is more complicated. I know a lot of professional theatre people working in New York and across the U.S. Most women will simply call themselves actors, and sometimes correct those who refer to them as actresses. However, when it comes to awards, it is important that they retain gendered categories because it is still a fact that there are far more substantial roles available to men. In order to encourage more important roles to be written for women, they need a category where they stand a chance against men. Perhaps there's hope for the categories to be renamed "male actor, female actor." In an ideal world, we wouldn't need separate categories at all, because everyone would have equal opportunity to play award-winning roles. That would also make room for more gender-fluid performers who perhaps would not feel comfortable being sorted according to the culturally constructed gender binary.

The etymology of "hysteria" is fascinating. Perhaps consider that a greater number of women are diagnosed with histrionic personality disorder and other personality/mental disorders because men are less likely to seek treatment for emotional issues or mental health troubles. Also, women tend to be more prone to these problems for a variety of reasons, a big one being the way that gender roles and stereotypes affect our mental health. Gloria Steinem's mother is an excellent example. And of course one of the best resources for these cases is Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique.

Hannah wrote: "Chicago, IL anyone? Would love to discuss in person!"

Yes, I'm in Chicago, too! Anyone else?

Geofrey wrote: "Although I admire (really I do) the men who can put aside their own personal self-interest and serve the common good of all humanity from a sense of duty, or moral obligation, or at the very least ..."

First, I'll just tell you that the way you wrote and structured your post truly made me laugh out loud! Thanks for that.
But yeah, I totally know the type of person to whom you're referring, and they're definitely out there. There are also the "nice guys" who do the right thing and then turn around and are like "Hey, so, I'm so great, right? Where's my reward?" It also reminds me of the overblown adulation of male celebrities who embrace feminism. I don't mean to question THEIR motives, but there seems to be a significant disconnect between female celebs who take up feminism and who are then analyzed and everything they say and do is picked apart to make sure they're espousing the "correct" feminism, that kind of thing. But male celebs it's often an automatic: "WOW! SO WONDERFUL!" and he's everyone's new favorite person. Does that make sense? A bit of a ramble, I know, my apologies.

On the topic of housework and childrearing, it's a complicated issue. It goes much deeper than individual choice. It also has to do with socioeconomics, religion, all kinds of factors. Values are instilled in us since day one, and even with the best intentions, they can often be almost insurmountable challenge to overcome. It's closely linked to personal hygiene, as well, and how we are made to feel about our bodies. Laura Kipnis wrote a chapter called "Dirt" that dissects these things in her book The Female Thing. The book overall was mostly decent, but that chapter was great and eye-opening for me.

Apparently Phasma is going to be important in the next two episodes, so hopefully her character will be expanded!


Do I need to mark spoilers? I'm just gonna assume people won't read if they don't want them.
Also, I don't think Kylo Ren is Rey's brother, but I do think he knows who she is. He freaked out when he found out a woman on Jakku was with the droid. I think he's the one who left her there, and he used his facility with mind reading/control to wipe her early memories. She was one of the younglings training with Luke, and KR saved her and was planning to come back for her to train him when he had things more under control. I've seen other people talking about this theory too!

James, this topic is about trolls and how to identify and handle them. In two different posts above, you attempt to bring up the same thing already being discussed in other threads. I was simply suggesting that you keep those kinds of comments to the posts that are already discussing them, and you will be less likely to be labeled a troll.

Yes and we are discussing exactly that in many other threads.

Another thing that trolls do: derail conversations in posts to serve their agenda. If you don't want people to assume you're a troll you should try to keep those debates off posts where people are trying to discuss something else.

I meant the kind of female-specific trauma that is used to define women's motivations in a lot of plots, as is discussed in the article Clair posted. I didn't specify because I thought it had been sufficiently established in her comment. She's definitely had traumatic experiences, although I'm not entirely convinced she's motivated by them, necessarily. I think it's the fact that she was abandoned that liberates her to take action more than a direct motivation. She's just thrown into the action in the same way Luke was, by accidentally discovering a droid that happened to be important!

Clair - yes! I was going to link to the same thing! So often, strong female characters are motivated by something traumatic, as if women don't have conviction on their own! Rey totally side steps this stereotypical plot device.

SPOILERS

Trak- I think people are just coming up with theories to explain her facility with the Force. But I've seen some theories about her being Leia's daughter (although I think it's unlikely) or born of non-Force users. There is definitely some patriarchal-lineage bias, though, as you pointed out.

Can we not turn this thread into yet another debate about men? We already have quite a few threads devoted to men's role in feminism.

Let's keep this thread on topic, what strategies might be used by this group to avoid trolls and disrespect among members.

How does gender determine difference?

Individuals are different, yes. Any differences that seem to divide along the lines of gender have developed that way culturally. The sex organs you are born with do not have any affect on the development of an individual's character. We may inherit certain traits via DNA but they are not divided along gender lines.