Random’s Comments (group member since Apr 30, 2009)

Random’s comments from the Beyond Reality group.

I like to try to read at least one book every year that help put me in the mood for Halloween.

Last year it was Neil Gaiman's Coraline which does very well on the creepy-o-meter for a YA book. I listened to the audio book and the music between sections and the singing mice added to the creepy factor oh so very well.

When I was a kid my mom picked up this old book from a library sale called Ghosts and Goblins. Its a collection of old short stories and we would ready it every Halloween. I still remember some of them almost by heart, such as "The Shadow People" http://www.bartleby.com/250/71.html

Anyway, I was wondering if any of you have any Halloween reading traditions you might like to share. For those who don't really have a tradition, what books might you recommend for Halloween reading?

Going to try this one again :)
Science Fiction: Dragon's Egg by Robert L. Forward

First contact, evolution of a species/world, some great fodder for discussion.

Ken wrote: "My thoughts also. The bodies stop changing but the mind. Will the minds evolve to another level of consciousness. I wonder if its a hive mind or just a general interconnectedness."

I got the impression that it is a true hive mind. The separate clone bodies even fell into referring to the group as I.

Growth and change rarely comes from within a closed system. New experiences and thoughts have to come from the outside. I think the answer would have to really depend upon how much interaction the Kahn clone entity has those outside itself. I didn't get the impression that it really interacted with the other humans out there. It may be more involved with the Taurans, but I don't remember anything pointing to this.

A truly closed system (one mind no matter how many bodies with no outside interaction) will stagnate no matter how brilliant or long lived that entity is.

Jim wrote: "I don't know why it's not valid or why Kahn should have to be put in the same situation to make the comparison. Would you explain why you think that?"

Following the ideas of basic logic I don't really see how you can't see the contradiction in that statement.

You're stating that the entity known as the Kahn clones (it does seem to think of itself as one person with multiple bodies) must be better at adjusting to the jumps due to time lag because it will never experience that lag in the first place.

Take what I quoted and replace Kahn with Mandella's Mother. She never went out on a ship. She never experienced time lag. The potential that she will ever experience time lag in the future is as close to nil as you can get. Thus, that must make her better adapted to deal with time lag issues than other humans.

That's like saying I would be better at adjusting to the mental hardships of a battle ground because I have never and likely will never experience life on a battle ground.

Now using logic you can say you think the Kahn entity is superior because it would be exceedingly difficult to put it in that situation to begin with. I might argue whether or not that equals superiority but agree that its nature does give it an advantage of avoiding the time lag situation all together.

Jim wrote: "Sort of, Random. I never considered the possibility of Kahn being in the same position with communication difficulties due to time lag because I thought it was extremely difficult, if not impossib..."

Whether or not you consider the Kahn clones still human (though I posit that over time they will be more human than the other humans due to genetic drift), that doesn't mean it can or cannot handle the time displacement easier than the other humans.

My original comment was saying that I disagreed with the statement "Normal humans can't keep up with information given the time lag involved in interstellar travel, but Kahn can."
Its not a valid statement if the Kahn clones can't be put into the same situation as the average human.


I do wonder why the human Kahn was chosen for the cloning over anyone else. The book doesn't go into it but I am very curious as to the events of that time period.

Jim wrote: "My original point was that normal humans can't keep up with information given the time lag involved in interstellar travel, but Kahn can. Kahn does it by being in multiple locations & yet sharing one consciousness."

If I'm understanding you correctly I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

The Kahn clones can't be affected by the time time loss like normal humans because the Kahn clones can't actually be isolated like normal humans (or at least can't without extreme difficulty). But at the same time you're saying that Kahn clones wouldn't be affected if they were put in that situation because...they can't be put in that situation.

Its an unfair comparison.

Stefan wrote: "Random wrote: "So the ends justifies the means?"

I don't think that's what I said. "

My apologies. Given the direction of the conversation, that is how it appeared to go.

Jim wrote: "To me that implies that individual clones never lose contact with the group mind, so it doesn't matter if they're physically gone 5000 years or 5 minutes - they're never really out of touch."

But they are out of touch with the rest of humanity. In 5000 years time the other humans (who are not clones) will have changed significantly and the clones will not had the opportunity to change with them.

Jim wrote: "What's worse to me is at the end where Kahn says they can change a person's sexual orientation easily & they do for Charlie & Diana. I find the implications of that to be scary."

Less horrifying than the government which imposed a sexual orientation on them before they were even born. At least the clones gave them a choice. :)

Jim wrote: "They were told 'why' they fought. It's close to the beginning of the book. A colonist ship had been pursued & destroyed by a Tauran ship, so the UN decided to field soldiers to 'protect' portal p..."

No later spoilers. I'll just say, read the last bit of the book again.

Ken wrote: "Using the Vietnam reference they went to stop the dominoes of communism. Here there was none of that. These guys were drafted, trained and went to war but no why."

You discover the whole "why" question at the end of the book.

Chris wrote: "In reference to the government imposed homosexuality as being this horror of government intervention, I didn't really see that. I think the horror was based on perspective. The soldiers, who saw it..."

The stress isn't on the homosexuality, its on the fact that it was imposed and eventually programmed into them from birth. Even attitudes and behaviors were eventually programmed into them. They had no choice.


Stefan wrote: "Wasn't the justification for general homosexuality related to population control? In other words, it wasn't random or cultural but based on real societal needs"

So the ends justifies the means? Yes, there had been population issues. However, there are many ways to enforce population control without imposing a change on the very nature of the people themselves.

Overall the government created a society of people who were just what they needed for fighting the war. They were fighting for the sake of the fight, not to protect the people and their society.

Jim wrote: "Doesn't Kahn say it always knows what each member knows, regardless of where they are? Seems to me that's the only known method of getting information faster than the lag that's such a big deal th..."

Where isn't the issue. If all the clones went out on a ship and when they came back it was 5000 years later would they really adapt any better than any other human? I see nothing that implies they would.

Nick wrote: "Is homosexuality seen as a step on the evolutionary road to this clone-like society, perhaps because of narcissistic elements within it? OR is the view on sexuality advanced for Haldeman's time?"

I believe it was meant to be seen as a horror, though I did not get the impression that homosexuality itself is the horror so much as the forced manipulation by the government on its population (which I personally find extremely repulsive). Given the time period this was written in however, the homosexuality itself is sure to have horrified some of its readers and may be one of the reasons it was chosen over other methods.

I don't think the progression towards the clone like society is inevitable in of itself (as in that's where the society would be destined to go) so much as it may have been the inevitable end point of the manipulation. I want to stress end point. I have problems seeing a society managing any meaningful development once all it consists of is clones one a single person.

Jim wrote: "Normal humans can't keep up with information given the time lag involved in interstellar travel, but Kahn can. Normal humans can't keep up with & efficiently use the information they have access to. Again, Kahn can & does."

I have to disagree with this. Man (Kahn) does because Kahn has witnessed and existed along with the progression where the humans who have been displaced in time due to travel have not.

Actually, was there any indication in the book that the society had changed/developed since it because that of Kahn clones only? I did not get the impression it had since its beginning. This implies that the clones are not adept at following change, only that they are adept of staying very static.

I'm currently finishing up Neal Stephenson's The Diamond Age Or, a Young Lady's Illustrated Primer, which, as usual, I am adoring. After that I'll hit Cetaganda. Its a reread and should go rather quickly.

I still haven't managed to get my hands on a copy of To Ride Hell's Chasm which I feel immense guilt about. I've been avoiding non electronic books for a while now (my house can only hold so much stuff) and I've been way too lazy to hit the library. Same goes for Brokedown Palace. I'll get to them eventually, just too late for the discussions I fear. :(

After that I have no idea, other than I'll toss in at least one book for the Halloween spirit. Not sure what that is going to be yet.

The war was certainly not glorified, but at the same time I got the impression that the primary concept wasn't really war but instead that of social changes caused by it in both direct and indirect means.

From what I had heard of this book, I really expected something very different than what it turned out to be. Happily, this turned out to be a good thing. :)
From the descriptions I had heard, it makes me think they either did not fully read the book (skipped a lot of material) or did not comprehend it.

Much better than Starship Troopers (which I have to admit to despising).

Overall an interesting read. Looking forward to the spoiler threads.

Squeeee! New Discworld. Didn't realize it was in the works. I'll be grabbing it.

Sisimka wrote: "Now that he has a 'place' in the scheme of things, I expect the novels will be more like Warrior's Apprentice? (I hope so!) "

Don't want to go into this is much detail but....

I read somewhere that Bujold had a disagreement with her publisher early on. Apparently they wanted to refer to the series as Miles Naismith until she gave them Mountains of Mourning. The series is called Miles Vorkosigan for a reason.

Personally I find Miles Vorkosigan much more interesting.

Sisimka wrote: "There were, of course, many fun and memorable moments with Miles. My favourite being just after he's explained to Cavilo how he's planning to usurp Gregor's throne."

That scene has one of my favorite lines in the book.

". . . am I reading too much into all that innuendo, or did you in fact just connive to assassinate Gregor in one breath, offer to cuckold him in the next, accuse your father of homosexuality, suggest a patricidal plot against him, and league yourself with Cavilo-what are you going to do for an encore?"

"Depends on the straight lines. I can hardly wait to find out."

I don't completely agree.

Personally I would give the first 4 books lower ratings (under 4), though I consider Barrayar the best of the bunch. I suspect Ethan of Athos is dinged mostly due to the fact that Miles is not one of the characters. It's still quite good IMO.

Cetaganda happens to be one of my personal favorites (along with Memory and A Civil Campaign) so I'm looking forward to next month. :)

Oh, I see we've already done The Lust Lizard of Melancholy Cove, so how about
The Stupidest Angel A Heartwarming Tale of Christmas Terror, Version 2.0 by Christopher Moore for Fantasy.
No need to even read the other before this one and who can resist Christmas Zombies. :D