Traveller’s
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(group member since Jan 14, 2015)
Traveller’s
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from the On Paths Unknown group.
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Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "(I am about to the point I am going to stop reading blurbs and limit my reading of reviews to just a few people who are careful not to spoil.) .."I'm glad you're starting to see what I mean by the virtues of an "innocent" reading!
Stephen wrote: "Traveller wrote: "I did finally get through Benji's bit, but then I had to move on to other reading. Been meaning to get back to it ever since..."I gave up several times before finally finishing ..."
Thanks Stephen, and welcome!
Don't worry, this novel soon gets a 'story' albeit apparently fragmented at first...
I must remember to comment in the next thread, actually, since I've been reading this book while sitting in waiting rooms (my reading has also been 'fragmented' - quite fitting!) and been forgetting to comment!
Listen, A., are you going to participate in our upcoming discussion of We Have Always Lived in the Castle by Shirley Jackson? It just feels to me it might be your kind of book. ;)Actually, for that matter, you might enjoy Jeff VanderMeer's work as well....
Thread for story 5 (The Demoiselle d'Ys.) is here: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Will get around to making one for story 6 soon - haven't read story 5 yet, so will try to hurry up...
Firstly, I'm kinda glad kinda sad that you're pointing out that we need to do the other stories as well, A. - that they also tie in! If only one didn't have to sleep at night! :P...but okay, then I guess we must make time to read them as well, if they'll help at all with unraveling these mysteries. ;)
A. wrote: "But that begs a larger question: how did the book *get onto* Jack's shelf? I wonder if perhaps Alec put it there while visiting Jack.."
I realized only after reading your post that I had simply assumed that "Mr Scott' was Jack Scott; I googled the name, and I found this: http://kinginyellow.wikia.com/wiki/Mr...
Let me copy and paste the salient points:
There are two characters in The King In Yellow with the surname Scott, both artists; as the second lacks a forename, it is likely they are the same character.
Jack Scott is a character in The Mask. He is a friend of Boris Yvain and Alec.
Mr Scott is a character in The Yellow Sign. His model is Tessie. Three years earlier he dated a woman called Sylvia.
Reconciling The Two
Jack Scott was in Paris during the events of The Mask, which must occur before The Repairer of Reputations as Boris Yvain is dead by then. Mr Scott and Tessie live in New York City. As Hildred Castaigne is dead by the time of The Yellow Sign, that story must take place after The Repairer of Reputations. If Sylvia is connected with one or both of the other Sylvias in The King In Yellow, she would most likely have dated him in Paris, putting him there three years earlier, say two years before The Repairer of Reputations, which fits neatly.
Interestingly, the artist Jack Trent also dated a Sylvia, which (running with hints in The Repairer of Reputations) may imply that Jack Scott is his equivalent in a fictional or alternate timeline.
Oh, the webs you spin, Mr Chambers!
A. wrote: "4e. If we believe Thomas really spoke to Jack about the watchman, then the watchman is real, but that doesn't necessarily mean Thomas actually broke a finger off the man (Maybe the man was just missing a finger and Jack made up an explanation for it). Likewise, the watchman could really be dead in Jack's apartment but *not* be a months-old corpse. He could be newly dead, and Jack could have killed him. .."
Yeah, I have felt that way as well, and I don't really think your a and e contradict one another if you bend a a bit...
A. wrote: "I thought I'd probably put too much inside the spoiler tags, but I figured that was better than putting too little. ;-) Let me make sure I understand what you're saying, since I'm writing this ea..."
Yep, that's more or less how we do it, otherwise it becomes rather onerous. You can use your own discretion as to when to use the tags, and like you say, rather safe than sorry, because some ppl can become quite grumpy when they feel they've been 'spoiled'. ;)
About your Capter 1 comment - but, we know that (view spoiler)
In a way, Chambers plays a nice trick on the reader: we don't need to read the play to go nuts, one only needs to read these YK stories by Chambers! :P XD..as Derek also remarked elsewhere, if I'm not mistaken...
@Amy; agree with you assessment of #1 and to a large extent with #3. Re #3: Interesting thought about the Yellow King having replaced the Living God in the narrator's mind ; yes, I was thinking along the same lines with my point about him now seeing "the religion of the Yellow King" as having supplanted his Christian Catholic structure - The Yellow King and his minions and the KIY mindset has now invaded the poor guy's perception of his religion. Remember the rules work as such: If he's read the KIY, he is already crazy, so all of this that he experiences, is not "real" but how he perceives them.
Re #4 : ...it is true that both Jack and Tessie 'dream' about the guardsman pulling the hearse before either of them read the play, and his painting also becomes corrupt BEFORE he reads the play, and that puzzles me a bit, because as far as I have figured the KIY mythos out by now, various experiences around TKIY are manifestations of madness - or does anybody else get that the KIY phenomenon bleeds into reality as well, and becomes part of reality once someone has read it? I had assumed that all of the Yellowy happenings were taking place only in the minds of those that had read the second part.
Initially I had thought that the guardsman had killed the couple, but later on I started wondering if it had not perhaps been the other way round- that he was just a normal bloke and they hallucinated his 'deadness'. There is the nose, granted, and the outside person who had also experienced the guardman as a zombie, but that 'could' have been how Jack saw events after he went insane, as part of the grand delusion?
The guardsman in story 4 also reminded me of the organist and the stranger in story 3. Are they manifestations of the same creature?
Hmm, interesting that you seem to see the previous narrator in him, Amy - but why would he be ...by the same token, is the stranger/organist in story 3 then the narrator from stories one or two? Very perplexing...
Some thoughts on Prophet's Paradise: well, what does "Prophet's Paradise" mean in the first place? Prohets prohesy, and usually their prophesies are supposed to come true, so, what does it mean in the context of TKIY?What if there's a section for each story? or maybe it's all mixed up.... :( Some imagery in THE STUDIO might point to medieval furnishings, which made me think of the armorer in the first story, but...
Some lines/stanza's/paragraphs in almost all of the 'stories' repeat themselves, and most of the repetitions are creepy!.
When you read this one, you have to pinch yourself to remember that this was published before WWI:
THE SACRIFICE
I went into a field of flowers, whose petals are whiter than snow and whose hearts are pure gold.
Far afield a woman cried, "I have killed him I loved!" and from a jar she poured blood upon the flowers whose petals are whiter than snow and whose hearts are pure gold.
Far afield I followed, and on the jar I read a thousand names, while from within the fresh blood bubbled to the brim.
"I have killed him I loved!" she cried. "The world's athirst; now let it drink!" She passed, and far afield I watched her pouring blood upon the flowers whose petals are whiter than snow and whose hearts are pure gold.
If he had written it after WWI, I would have interpreted it as the woman being the governments of the warring nations, and the 'lover', their countries being destroyed; but maybe it does refer to war in any case.
I really want to know what that imagery means.
PS, this looks like a nice copy for someone who doesn't mind reading online: https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/c/cham...
A. wrote: "1. You could say the main characters in each of the four stories have a "mask of self-deception" that gets torn away by reading TKIY. That's the whole purpose of TKIY: to strip away masks.
Yes, that is true. I didn't notice it yet until we got to The Mask, so I didn't see it in the first story, so, nicely pulled together, there, A.
Also, I didn't get the White Rabbit at once, but now you mention it, it seems obvious!
Also, magicians use white rabbits to make them disappear into their hats, so white rabbit => illusion .
Yes, A. has really come and thrown a few bombs on us. :D Not that I'm complaining in the least. ;) I do hope you'll join into some of our other discussions A.!Oh, I see Gutenberg has become pretty polished since I last grabbed books there.
Although Cassilda's Song is in the Feedbooks version, I missed it. I'm going to repost it here in case anybody else missed it. (I know you referred to it in one of the threads, Amy, but I wasn't sure where it was!)
Interesting dedication as well.
THE KING IN YELLOW IS DEDICATED TO MY BROTHER
Cassilda's Song in "The King in Yellow," Act i, Scene 2.
Along the shore the cloud waves break,
The twin suns sink beneath the lake,
The shadows lengthen
In Carcosa.
Strange is the night where black stars rise,
And strange moons circle through the skies
But stranger still is
Lost Carcosa.
Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
Where flap the tatters of the King,
Must die unheard in
Dim Carcosa.
Song of my soul, my voice is dead;
Die thou, unsung, as tears unshed
Shall dry and die in
Lost Carcosa.
==============
Hm, I glanced at Prophet's Paradise, and it seems as if it's going to require some time to parse...
Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "The Gutenberg version has "Prophet's Paradise," Traveller."Thanks, Amy, heading there now. I won't mind if you comment in the meantime... do you think we need to make a thread for "Prophet's Paradise"? I think it would be fine if we simply included it in the discussion here, eh?
Elsewhere, A. said:A. wrote: "Okay, now I'm heading out on a limb.
1. You could say the main characters in each of the four stories have a "mask of self-deception" that gets torn away by reading TKIY. That's the whole purpose of TKIY: to strip away masks. I'll take the stories in order:
a. I think Hildred is actually deceived twice. When he's insane, he thinks he can become the Emperor of America by getting rid of his cousin; but what other self-deception did he have? I think that before his head injury and reading TKIY, he was probably already jealous of Louis' success - but this is based on my reading of the other three stories. If they weren't there, I wouldn't necessarily have caught that. Oh, and incidentally, at one point when Hildred looks in the mirror, he describes his reflection as looking pale and skeletal - like the KIY.
b. Alec describes his mask plainly. He's pretending to be okay with the fact that Genevieve chose Boris and that he can still be friends with both of them.
c. The narrator of "The Court of the Dragon" is deceived about his faith. He's been going to church for ages without really believing. Reading TKIY exposes his hypocrisy.
d. Jack Scott in the fourth story deceives himself that he can be fair in his treatment of Tillie, and he also deceives himself in thinking he's a man of the world. When he reads TKIY, he gets his eyes opened and realizes he was an innocent before and now he's not.
2. That new element Boris discovered *has* to mean something. If it's a symbol, my best guess is that it relates to the new element in the trio's relationship: that Genevieve really loves Alec more. In fact, it's possible that the new element caused the change in her.
3. The white rabbit makes me think of innocence (because of the color) and Alice in Wonderland. The characters all do go down a rabbit hole.
4. In his delirium, Alec sees "the lake of Hali, thin and blank, without a ripple or wind to stir it." I wonder if this relates to Boris' pool. He does seem to be obsessed with it.
5. In "The Prophet's Paradise" there's a section called "The Phantom" that includes this quote: "The Phantom of the Past would go no further./ “If it is true,” she sighed, “that you find in me a friend, let us turn back together. You will forget, here, under the summer sky.” /I held her close, pleading, caressing; I seized her, white with anger, but she resisted." Then the scene repeats. What if this relates to Alec and Genevieve? If she's really dead and stays dead, then she *is* a phantom of the past that can go no further - and only wanted to be friends. But reading TKIY causes Alec to fantasize a new life for her - with him as her lover instead of Boris.
6. Petrification is a powerful symbol: things staying the same, not being able to change - but also not being able to live. I think this relates again to the quote from "The Prophet's Paradise." For Boris, petrification is a symbol of things staying the same, of Genevieve staying with him and not changing her mind. For Alec, petrification is reversible - Genevieve can change her mind. Alec imagines(?) Genevieve petrifying herself but then recovering at a time when she can love him without Boris getting in the way.
5. Alec's "one sane thought" during his delirium was that he had some responsibility to Boris and Genevieve. My guess is that's his obsessive thought and not sane at all. He's using it to justify his wanting Genevieve revived and with him because that way he can protect her and do a friendly duty to the dead Boris.
Like I said, I really don't think I get this story. But my best guess is that Boris genuinely died of a heart attack and Genevieve never chose Alec, did get petrified, and didn't recover from petrification - although I'm not entirely sure she was ever petrified. Alec could have imagined that part too. Heck, maybe she just died like Boris died. "
Reading that, I discovered that my copy of KIY does not contain "The Prophet's Paradise", so I'm off in search of it...
Ah, I see you've spoiler tagged your comment, thanks A., very considerate. Hello btw, and welcome to the group! :)
Let me explain how we deal with spoilers: to avoid having to spoiler tag EVERYTHING, we rather have lots of threads, and I usually link from one thread to the next one, so the only reason I asked you to use tags in the thread of the mask, was the part of your post that relates to the other stories - since people might not have read story 3 or 4 yet when they enter the thread for story 2.
That's why I made an overarching thread where people can go and discuss all 4 stories together - only, you are the only one who bothered to pull all the threads together, ha.
We definitely were still meaning to, but as you might have noticed, we tend to read lots of books at a time, and so we can get distracted.
...but I'm very glad you've given us some motivation to finish this off properly. :)
Regarding your comments on this story: yes, agreed on the Adam and Eve. Once again Chambers trips us up with ambiguity; I can't help wondering if the watchman (view spoiler)
Hey, what is the internet but a wonderful place! You guys are totally on the ball.Okay, I'm also going to comment in the thread that Amy mentioned - glad to get some confirmation on that.
(This one : https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... )
A. posted a huge-ass analysis in an earlier thread - it's really huge - I do think that thread is going to be best to reply to it - I'll copy her analysis there, as soon as I can find my copy of the book, argh!
Thanks! They're actually only necessary from "Okay, now I'm heading out on a limb " :D but you are very thorough, I have noticed by now. :)Hmm, that other thread seems to be a dud, so now I'm contemplating whether to ask you if I can discuss that bit there, or if I should do so here, also under spoiler tags. Actually, - you know what, since these are short stories, maybe we shouldn't worry about spoilers, since you're going to find out soon enough if you read them, anyway?
...but you know what, just so it makes sense to people after they had read these first 4 stories, I think I'm going to reply to you in the thread for [EDIT] all 4 stories, okay? Since your analysis after "Okay, now I'm heading out on a limb " deals with all 4 stories. https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
A. wrote: "This was my least favorite of the four KIY stories, but I'm not sure I really get it. I've been trying to figure out whether Genevieve is really alive again at the end or whether Alec is still in t..."Wonderful analysis! I am with you on all of that, except that as far as I'm concerned, EVERYTHING Alec says is suspect, because he is narrating in the past tense, so he could be viewing everything through the lens of his insanity, though I will concede that the parts he narrates, even now, of what happened before he read it is possibly /probably more trustworthy than events taking place after he read the play.
So, very important, the details you point out that have been in the other stories, since we know that info doesn't come from Alec.
Hmm, listen, we're rather paranoid about spoilers around here; just in case other people still come onto the discussion later, I wonder if you would mind putting your excellent thoughts regarding the other stories either in spoiler tags, or posting them here rather? https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/... , which is actually a thread created for the very purpose of pulling all the story threads together - your thoughts would be excellent material for that thread, because you seem to have gone through all this very thoroughly and and in a pretty meta manner!
I apologize if you perhaps missed that thread because we haven't posted much in it much, resulting in it being rather far down in the folder.
Ah. :|
Sigh, let me try all over again, while I have the books open....These 2 come highly recommended:
The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914
and The Proud Tower : A Portrait of the World Before the War, 1890-1914 by Barbara W. Tuchman who is well-regarded.
Also: The Vertigo Years: Europe 1900-1914
and ..ok, that's it for now.
Ugh, GR is not playing nice with me again, so I'll redo my lost post later.... I had gone to all the trouble of linking to a few books on the period, and right at the end, GR stops responding.
A. wrote: "I'm saying that if the stranger is Jesus, he's a version of Jesus that wasn't resurrected and the narrator recognizes him because the narrator doesn't believe Jesus rose from the dead. Meanwhile, the people who do believe, don't recognize the stranger.."Phew, okay... I can't dispute the conclusion since it is based on a possibly hypothetical premise, and I must admit it bends my mind a little... :P
Yes, you are quite right about the Living God, and there I didn't mean any 'real-world' religions, but I was thinking along the lines of Lovecraftian alien gods (Although since Chambers predated Lovecraft, Lovecraft's gods can and must be seen as Lovecraft's own interpretation, of course) - I merely meant in the sense that this Living God could be part of the Yellow King world/mythos, OR it can be an inversion of the Catholic worldview as a result of the narrator's insanity.
..but since Chambers left everything so vague, all of our theories can only be speculation; to an even greater degree than is usually the case when trying to interpret fiction.
..and that is what makes this mythos so rich for me - there are so many interpretations of it, including your own very interesting one, A.!
I'd love to hear what you think of the other stories - The Mask, for example : https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
