Shel’s
Comments
(group member since Mar 05, 2009)
Shel’s
comments
from the fiction files redux group.
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We would love to have you join, I second the motion. :)This is the first time I've read it too, and I don't have the academic point of view. :)
So, just a few things to think about as you read...* Issues of class & convention, and how they are represented
*Orientalism -- the "narrator"'s attitude toward the exoticism, and a potential excuse to forego conventional morality, that the Orientalism movement (such as it was) offered
* What does the youth of Emma and Charles have to do with who they end up becoming? And how does Flaubert treat this? (I have to say, it's very modern psychology of him.)
*Their parents and peripheral characters -- I am watching them closely, because it seems they are used to draw a picture of external perceptions of society, and also what kinds of behavior are and are not acceptable. But in this different way from anyone I've read from that period.
I'm drawing some pretty stark comparisons between other writers of that era, including both the brutal Hugo and the breathless Balzac. (I have a lot of exposure to them.) It seems to me that his writing in isolation as he did fed this wholly new style that I've not read in 19th century French lit.
Jcamilo wrote: "Flaubert also said he hated Bovary and she represented the kind of people who he despised. He was a very angry man. Also, he considered himself to be worthless and a bad person. That is why accusat..."So... what was "Mme Bovary, c'est moi!" all about?
And is it me or does "Cupid" have some male pattern baldness going on there? And those wings are much too small to fly with.
I watched the first film... and then I heard an interview with the woman who plays Lisbeth. The interview was way more interesting than the film.It was ok. I'm not usually squeamish and I'm less PC than almost anyone I know, but the misogyny did bother me.
Hugh wrote: "Some folks may find this interesting.... This is from a letter Flaubert wrote to Louise Colet as he was writing Madame Bovary. I think it gives a great insight into the sheer amount of work went in..."Thank you for that post -- in the Lydia Davis edition she talks about this very thing -- how much work went into these pages, how much he wrote that he cast aside. Sometimes one page a week, but he had written 50 others... and tossed them.
Knowing all of this is making me read this book far more carefully than I otherwise might. I mean, sentence by sentence -- such deliberation, such effort.
Yeah. The first thing I think of in an adult store is... Cupid.
Elizabeth, I am not nearly so star trekky (and in fact, according to Adrian, I'm actually a sick fuckhead, so probably shouldn't be allowed to do anything on a webcam ;). [Actually I work in the web industry, and methinks that if Skype would allow us to do a group video chat that would be awesome, though we may end up talking more about rum than Emma.]
On the 13th I will start the conversation with my initial thoughts and then everyone just jumps in with what they think. I keep the conversation moving, but usually don't have to work overly hard to do so... and eventually we move into part two but the conversation is wide open. I just generally like it when people are nice to each other, generous, and back up their opinions in the text.
Yay! Smarty Kate and Dan are coming to the par-tay!
You have the best stories. I started reading what you posted and it did look like a classroom lecture. How cool would it have been to be in Nabokov's class?And only if this movie comes after it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MahTKZ...
Yay! Nabokov was my next stop. I will read this and pull out what I feel are the key points.Sorry. No zombies, either.
More details to watch for, and to keep an eye on our responses as readers:Flaubert's irony is present in the eloquent juxtapositions he creates between the "poetic" and the brutally commonplace, with an effect that is sometimes humorous, sometimes shocking, but that always draw us up short, breaks the mood.
Our emotional responses to the incidents of the novel are never entirely unmixed, which is of course one of the sources of its power.
And, to sum up, the combination of the stylistic choices and the story itself...:
What he is trying to achieve in this book, instead, is a style that is clear and direct, economical and precise, and at the same time rhythmic, sonorous, musical, and "as smooth as marble" on the surface, with varied sentence structures and with imperceptible transitions from scene to scene and from psychological analysis to action.
And finally, what did Flaubert have to say?
"What a bitch of a thing prose is! It is never finished; there's always something to redo."
From the introduction in the new Lydia Davis edition:Flaubert chose to create characters who are less than admirable and to treat them with ironic objectivity -- he remarks in another letter, as he works on the scene between Emma and Leon, "This will be the first time, I think, that one will see a book that makes fun of its young leading lady and its young leading man." Yet he goes on to say that "irony takes nothing away from pathos." Which is echoed by Vladimir Nabokov in his lecture on the novel: "The ironic and the pathetic are beautifully intertwined."
A lot of the intro is dedicated to what Flaubert was trying to accomplish -- almost a journalistic method of plot and character development -- just the facts, just the details tell the story.
In place of the author's comment, then the details of the scenes and the acute psychological portraits must convey everything -- and, for Flaubert, the direct dialogue, too, functioned to portray the characters more than to move the plot forward.To be effective, the details must be closely observed, carefully chosen, precise, and vivid..."
I'm just going to post some interesting tidbits I find before we begin. (Warning: I deliberately avoid academic approaches, including feminist readings...)Supposedly, Flaubert considered social interaction to be a barrier to his creativity and was notoriously reclusive, not to mention severely hacked off at the bourgeoisie. He had an affair with a married woman, Louis Colet, and parts of Bovary are drawn from his experiences with her. Apparently, the married poet was not pleased:
Amor nel cor
It was for him, for him whom she loved like a god,
For him, callous to all human sorrow, uncouth to women.
Alas, she was poor and had little to give
But all gifts are sacred that incarnate a soul.
Well! In a novel of traveling-salesman style,
As nauseating as a toxic wind,
He mocked the gift in a flat-footed phrase,
Yet kept the fine agate seal.
Amor nel cor, in Italian, means "love in the heart" or "everlasting love."
Well, you are in luck. Check Group Reads... I don't think Madame Bovary is on this list but we're reading it in November. :)
Here we go: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/4...Adrian, this is really interesting... I was momentarily worried as I wrote the above post that I would have a hard time finding a space for empathy with her...
Oh! And I will be using the new Lydia Davis translation. But because people will be using different translations, when we refer to the text, let's note chapter numbers and general locations of text/scenes, not page numbers.I happen to think that a variety of translations makes things more interesting. (I will also pick up a French version, for reference's sake since I can read it.)
OK, so Madame Bovary.I propose we break the discussion into the three parts the book is broken into, with the following dates as beginning points for the discussions:
By November 8, I will post some materials I've collected and some basic questions, of course welcome to input and pre-discussion from anyone in the group.
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Discussion starts Saturday, November 13 with Part One.
Discussion of Part Two (and it has 15 chapters so we will go a bit longer on that one...) we will start discussing @ the 22nd of November.
Discussion of Part Three, taking into account Turkey Day in the US, will begin December 8.
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The discussion start dates are really just to avoid spoilers and give people a reading schedule. Beginning a new section does not preclude discussion of previous chapters, etc.
The more the merrier -- even if you're not participating, if you've read it and have something to say, please do! I know there are lots of Madame Bovary lovers here who may not have time to read with us but would have some amazing things to say.
If you've ever read a book with me leading before, you know that I'm pretty flexible with dates and how we discuss things (though I will do everything I can to keep the dates on track since it's a whole novel).
My only guidelines are that if you have strong feelings one way or another about the book, that you be able to back up your perceptions with the text itself; and that we all be considerate of and generous with each other's opinions, thoughts and feelings.
Adrian wrote: "Shel, you sick fuckhead.I'm not posting the secret ingredients of the Jabberwocky Jumbo Burger, even if it's too late to open my Wonderland fast food franchise."
I've been called worse. Ex-wife comes to mind. :p
