Andree’s Comments (group member since Feb 02, 2014)

Andree’s comments from the Reading Proust's In Search of Lost Time in 2014 group.

Jonathan wrote: "But not 'powerful lungs' presumably..."

Definitely not!

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "...l'haleine forte..."

This tickled me. I don't read French, but I do play piano. And, for some reason, this translates in my head as a combination of both of our translations. ..."

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "...l'haleine forte..."

This tickled me. I don't read French, but I do play piano. And, for some reason, this translates in my head as a combination of both of our translations. ..."

Actually it would literally translate as "strong halitosis" ot a "strong case of halitosis".

Actually, I had seen pictures of Charles Haas before but I just discovered the Tissot painting at the "Impressionism, Fashion, and Modernity" exhibition at the Art Institute of Chicago last summer. I immediately recognized Charles Haas/Swann.

Jonathan wrote: "Andree wrote: "However, without checking, I assume that since Proust was born in 1871, the narrator should be about 15 at the time of his acceptance into the Swann household and of his friendship w..."

That is very possible, which would bring us into the 1890's.
Here is another one which you might like:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fil...
The man standing in the doorway is Charles Haas, the very model for Swann. Isn't it exactly the way one imagines Swann at the time of his courtship of Odette?

Jonathan wrote: "Andree wrote: "You might have found it yourself already but the following is not a bad site:
http://www.fashion-era.com/mid-late_v...-..."

I guess the old cardigan hasn't changed much since 1907.
I also found a women's golf attire from 1899:
http://www.internationalposter.com/po...

However, without checking, I assume that since Proust was born in 1871, the narrator should be about 15 at the time of his acceptance into the Swann household and of his friendship with Gilberte, which would bring us to about 1886.
Here is another one:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/48033711...

You might have found it yourself already but the following is not a bad site:
http://www.fashion-era.com/mid-late_v...

Pinterest also has an interesting variety of illustrations for costumes of that period.

I had a proustian moment, at yoga of all places. As we were in a twisted seating position, I found myself concentrating on a small window, pierced at floor level in the yoga studio. It overlooked a white wall and window across the street, upon which the sun painted a brighter triangular panel, as the shutter was left in semi-shadow. I immediately felt an "obscure sense of pleasure" and thought of the steeples of Martinville and Vieuxvicq. Like Proust's steeples, the white wall and shutter implied "that something more lay behind (...) that luminosity, something which they seemed at once to contain and to conceal." Did it awaken a memory that I was incapable to unearth? Possibly. But I had no such redemptive moment as Proust's, did not write a "little fragment (...) to appease my conscience and to satisfy my enthusiasm", I simply moved out of the position and never got to feel like "a hen (that) had just laid an egg" or "began to sing at the top of my voice", but the pleasure, if fugitive, was real.

Margherita wrote: "I always wonder what we miss with translations. Anyone trying to read it in French?"

I only read it in French, since it's my mother tongue, but I also read parts of the Moncrieff's translation. Of course, something is always lost in translation, but if there is one thing which I liked in the translation is that it is somehow more readable than the original. Since the exercise of translating first implies an understanding of the text, the end result is often a clarification of the original. It might make a dent in Proust's syntax, but it's not necessarily a bad thing unless your goal in reading La recherche is to study its grammatical structure.

Jonathan wrote: "Is anyone reading the Penguin translations?

I decided to go for the Enright revisions of Moncrieff & Kilmartin (the MKE versions available in Vintage UK) but about a quarter of the way into Vol2 ..."

The Penguin version is certainly clearer and easier to read, however I wonder how faithful it is to Proust's somewhat convoluted (and not so easy to read, even in French) syntax. But then, I doubt that any agreement will ever be reached as to what is the mission of the translator: to remain as faithful as possible to the original or to create a readable text in the language of translation? The discussion has been out for quite some time now.

Proust can indeed be very funny and more than one study have been dedicated to humor in La Recherche. He was himself considered a great wit and it's no surprise that you find yourself laughing. There are some interesting passages about quite a few other characters, namely his friend Bloch.

I'm surprised that nobody mentioned the factor "interest"! It was after all in Odette's interest, as an aging courtesan, to hope that Swann would make her a respectable and wealthy lady.
Did they or did they not remain a part of the Verdurin's little nucleus after they were married? I do not remember, but the advantages of being madame Swann, perhaps diluted the preoccupation of remaining in the Verdurin's favors.

Tor wrote: "Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "... Did these people actually work? ..."

I've been wondering about this too. Like when they go on holiday trips, I'm thinking, "Oh yeah, it must feel good to get some ..."

As Jonathan said: "Work was for the lowly orders."
Aristocrats didn't work, except perhaps to manage their properties (and even then, they usually hired people to do that) or dabble in high-brow activities such as art collecting or...literature.
Proust himself - a bourgeois not an aristocrat - never had a paying job in his life,except perhaps for playing the stock market with disastrous results. His father and brother however were both physicians.

Don't you mean Gilberte? That the narrator's interest in Gilberte stemmed from her parents' friendship with Bergotte? Interest by association.
"before I had even seen Gilberte, I
reflected that her intimacy with that godlike elder would have made
her, for me, the most passionately enthralling of friends"

I'm not at all sure that Proust was experimenting, although I'm sure it could be open to debate. In "Souvenir sur Marcel Proust", Robert Dreyfus wrote about Proust's style (loosely translated):"It is not at all about embellishment (...) not even a matter of technique, it is - like color for an artist - a characteristic of his vision, a revelation of that specific universe, visible to ourselves alone and invisible to others."
Often Proust has been referred to as a visionary and his unique style may very well be the reflection of that quality.

Lucinda wrote: "Andree wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Tor wrote: "I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 99% of the time.)..."
Just want to add something, yes a lot of French literature translated into English comes across as verbose and/or overwritten, whereas in French it would just be considered as exquisitely written.
Different approaches. On the other hand, French readers often delight in the directness of American literature translated in French. Well..it's all about "Vive la différence!"

Lucinda wrote: "Andree wrote: "Jonathan wrote: "Tor wrote: "I sometimes wonder how Proust gets away with using such a verbose style. Why do even modern readers accept it, even love it? (I do too, 99% of the time.)..."

Actually, I read La Recherche in French and browsed through the English translation which I found somewhat easier to read than the original. That can probably be explained by the fact that the translator first has to thoroughly dissect the sentence, thus clarifying it for himself and the reader. It's not an easy read in either language, but I find the phrasing more reader-friendly in English than in French.

Oh, okay, it's in Swann's Way then. I was looking for the quotation in Within a Budding Grove.

Jonathan wrote: "Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "Hahahahahahaha! Did that little girl, Gilberte, just flip him the bird?!? LOL! "

Yes, I wondered as well what the sign was. I wonder if there are any experts on early t..."

Where is the book is that sentence? I don't seem to be able to find it in my translation.

Sunny in Wonderland wrote: "I loved this little ditty by Francois:

Snaps and snails and puppy-dog tails,
And dirty sluts in plenty,
Smell sweeter than roses in young men's noses
When the heart is one-and-twenty."

Pretty witty and creative translation of what reads in the original French version as: "he who falls in love with a dog's ass sees it as a rose."

You will find out when you get to "Swann in Love" and will also understand why Marcel's family refer to her as "that kind of woman".