Sue’s Comments (group member since Jan 21, 2020)

Sue’s comments from the The Obscure Reading Group group.

Now to find it.

Art definitely imitates life here. Gissing didn’t have far to look for models of his characters and their behaviors. He knew all about the costs of alcohol first hand.
Your summaries and ideas are really interesting, Dawn. I haven’t read Hardy for a while but I agree with the parallels you’ve noted. Mayor of Casterbridge is one of my favorites.

I can’t remember the ages of each exactly, but was Jane’s rescue perhaps more complete and total once it happened than Amy’s ever was. Sidney’s rescue of the family came after years of ups and downs and only after her father was finally unable to work at all. Also, she had never really been cared about….her father only really loved Clara. Once Sidney and Clara moved in to the household the atmosphere already was on its way to toxic. And Clara made no attempt to help. Sidney had to work, unlike Michael Snowden so he couldn’t be a constant teacher and example.

Kathleen, I agree with what you say about economic determinism. So many of the young adult and younger characters in the novel are actively ill or spent much time during childhood and beyond sick. As in the case of Jane, this led to personality and intellectual deficits that lasted through her life. We see this is Amy Hewet too. Of course all the poor we meet lived without adequate food and housing for most if not all of their lives. It’s definitely difficult to obtain anything when you have had.

After I finished writing that rather gloomy summary, I laughed to think that I did actually enjoy reading the novel.

Plateresca, I like your story for Bob, and agree with it. I don’t really have a story for Kirkwood except that I did lean toward his eventually reuniting with Jane whether in marriage or as very close friends. Of course that didn’t happen. I do still wonder if he will feel any allegiance to anyone but May once Mr. Hewett dies and if Clara should kill herself. Those two events might free him but probably too late to regain the life he had.

Two other things I remembered. The first was Micheal Snowden’s recall of how he had treated his wife in the past after he confronted Jane on her admission she could not live up to his ideals. He did live long enough to realize that he had been forcing others to live up to his thoughts of what was right. Finally he knew he had been wrong and truly forgave and loved Jane. And maybe forgave himself. I would love to have known what the new will said.

Second, the last words of the book seem to confirm the idea that kindness and good works are Gissing’s idea for humanity’s success. Jane goes to Michael Snowden’s grave on the third anniversary of his death and Sidney briefly meets her there. In the following, final paragraph of the book, Gissing notes that each has had no visible success , “yet to both was their work given. Unmarked, unencouraged save by their love of uprightness and mercy, they stood by the side of those more hapless… Sorrow certainly awaited them, per chance defeat…but at least their lives would remain a protest against those brute forces of society which fill…the abysses of the nether world.”

Perhaps this was how Gissing felt himself. No meaningful success but he did what he could to sound the alarm which was his skill. It’s certainly an unhappy picture of the future without much real hope.

Ken, I agree with several of your thoughts. I almost completed my last post but the iPad slipped before I clicked “done” so this is try number 3.

I found Clem to be somewhat symbolic. She personifies the terrible evil that those of the Nether World are capable of. She is present to think and act out evil toward others we know may, or may not not deserve it. She will do this for reward or personal benefit, or strictly out of vengeance or hate. She becomes almost a caricature of evil by the end of the book. She’s the “animal” behavior example in a social theorist’s casebook.

Bob Hewitt is somewhat different. He is mean and looks out only for himself. But he isn’t smart in any way. His acts of violence arise from the situations he ends up in. I place him on the low rungs of the Nether World. He is destined never to have a decent life.

I agree that Kirkwood dwindled away. In fact, I continued to expect something more from him for quite some time until I realized that I was thinking of a story that I might write not what Gissing obviously intended.

Perhaps Gissing is the more realistic author in his descriptions of what he sees/experiences than Dickens. Men and women are equally portrayed as capable of terrible behavior and evil acts.

Sorry I’ve missed the discussion for a bit. A bad cold and sinus infection have sidelined me and even made reading difficult.

I appreciated the comment above that describes Gissing as writing as a journalist. His narration sounds like a social worker/advocate for extreme change but he really doesn’t put forward any ideas except money for those who need and would use it well.

I wonder if there is any talk in the second half of the book of if the narrator believes the people of the Nether World are actually salvageable. He really savages them, giving up on any potential from birth. How does he account for a Michael Snowden, or a Jane, or Sydney. There seem to be strata of this world, but none have promise, do they.

I do like reading this. Gissing keeps it interesting with his changes of setting, introduction of new characters or return of old ones. And the chapter titles are great. I only began paying attention to them about half way through the reading and then started looking for their meaning.

Gissing does feel like Dickens Noir to me. We see many of the same sort of scenes and people but there are few, if any, redeeming lights to give anyone even a passing moment of happiness. The descriptions of squalor here in the Nether World seem worse than those poor sections of Dickens’ London and they seem to cover a larger territory. It’s a long walk to escape them. And no doubt, the Nether people were expected to keep to their areas.

I also have a feeling of some social mobility in Dickens’s London, if not between classes then definitely within a class. Gissing seems to paint everyone on one level though they might live and act differently.

I’m very much looking forward to the second half of the book as I have been getting more and more caught up in the story. It’s difficult to be optimistic about any possible outcome with the narrator’s voice always there. I have a feeling we will know a lot about Carla soon from what’s been happening to date.

He certainly does, Ken. I think I will start reading again once the discussion has begun.

Definitely some Dickensian twists and angels and demons.

I just double checked where the reading is to end for the week and find I have read an extra chapter. I’m really caught up in the story right now and went by the 50% marker on my book. Oops!

I plan to begin tonight or tomorrow. Looking forward to this.

I did order a copy for kindle last night. The font was a bit boring but I became interested reading the first couple of pages of the sample.

Merry Christmas Ken and all who are celebrating this week. Enjoy!

Darrin, I like your summing up. Your points are well taken. I do wonder if the link over time between Endo-san and Philip may have been altered rather than completely broken.

Nice to see you here, Gina.

But maybe not in the same way. Not as a child anymore. Now as an adult he could respect the man he admired and loved while separating him from the man who had disappointed him and hurt him so badly.

Yes, I like how you state that, Kathleen. I agree that he seemed to have worked it out that way. I find Philip a very interesting character to have survived all that happened to him when he was still actually quite young. And he was used by a man he literally revered.

I did see that Eng has another novel coming out next year. I added it but can’t recall the title. It’s also set in Malaya but I believe in the 1920s.