L’s Comments (group member since May 08, 2013)

L’s comments from the Tolkien's T.C.B.S group.

Keep an eye out for NEW discussions. Some still to come include ~

Ainur/ the Maiar, Eru and the children

Aulë and Yavanna

Celeborn and Galadriel

History of the Lands of Arador ~ Dragons

Elvish Immortality, Languages and history

Comparing Tolkien’s Elves with other Traditions

Humans

The debate of Finrod and Adreth

The Silmarillion

Fëanor’s Oath

Wraiths, Orcs and Monsters

Timeline for Gandalf VS Balrog:

Year 3018 Third Age
January 23 Gandalf pursues the Balrog to the peak of Zirak-zigil.
January 25: He casts down the Balrog, and passes away. His body lies on the peak.
February 14: Gandalf returns to life, and lies in a trance.
February 17: Gwaihir bears Gandalf to Lórien
(Note: Appendix B)

"Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell."
—Gandalf

Balrogs were Maiar spirits seduced by Melkor, and may have taken demon-like form as a result. They are demons of shadow and flame. Melkor corrupted these Maiar to his service but there were never more than seven according to Tolkien's son. However, in various writings there are references to entire "armies" of Balrogs. Gothmog was their captain during the 1st Age.

various fragments, published in History of Middle Earth, volume 10, Morgoth's Ring, showing that Tolkien never found a completely satisfactory explanation for the origins of Orcs, or of talking animals



from an undated note
“...The Elves from their earliest times invented and used a word ... orok to denote anything that caused fear and/or horror. It would originally have been applied to 'phantoms' (spirits assuming visible forms) as well as to any independently existing creatures. Its application (in all Elvish tongues) specifically to the creatures called Orks...was later.”



***


from a thinking-on-paper text, entitled “Orcs”, probably shortly after 1959
“Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system.


“(1) As the case of Aulë and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.


“(2) ? Therefore they must be corruptions of something pre-existing.


“(3) But Men had not yet appeared, when the Orcs already existed. Aulë constructed the Dwarves out of his memory of the Music, but Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor so as to allow the independence of Orcs. (Not unless Orcs were ultimately remediable, or could be amended and 'saved'?)


“It also seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritible.


“In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Morgoth.


“(4) What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech? These have been rather lightly adopted from less 'serious' mythologies, but play a part which cannot now be excised. ...




***


“The Wise in the Elder Days taught always that Orcs were not 'made by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have been irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with on their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at cost. [footnote mark] This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded.


[Footnote: Few Orcs ever did so in the Elder Days, and at no time would any Orc treat with any Elf. For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueler than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need).]

We presume it is the smaller orcs (“goblins”) who ride wolves. Perhaps riding is a way for a smaller orc soldier to gain status, or just to keep up with the group.


The Dwarves in The Hobbit rode ponies, though Dwarves don't seem to have used ponies routinely. It would probably be theoretically possible for a Dwarf, an Elf, a Human, or a large Hobbit to ride a wolf. If you can imagine a motivation to do so.


Tolkien's werewolves were not shapeshifters. They may have been bipeds, although the descriptions are sparse. They were certainly highly intelligent. Were they (or were the first werewolves) Maiar? We don't know.


Huan, the Hound of Valimar, is another being of uncertain status. He is much more powerful and intelligent than an ordinary dog, and, until he came to Middle Earth with Celegorm, immortal. But the comment that Oromë gave Huan to Celegorm doesn't sound like the way a Vala would treat a Maia.


Oromë's horse Nahar is another animal we don't really understand. Shadowfax, and all the race of the Mearas, were mortal horses, but have some special qualities not well explained. Was Nahar a distant ancestor of the Mearas?


Balrogs were certainly Maiar. (Arien and the Balrogs were both fire-spirits, but we aren't ready to classify Arien as a Balrog.)

The awakening of the Elves.

A late story, “Cuivienyarna”, by Tolkien describes a “legend of the Elves”, where three male and three female elves awakened first, and collected the other newly awakened elves into their tribes. In this version of the story, Ingwë, Finwë and Elwë are not the kings/leaders of their tribes, but only the ambassadors who visited the Blessed Lands.
We find in very stylized that the three pairs of first elves automatically knew to become husbands and wives.
All the Firstborn awoke in adult bodies, so technically did not have a “childhood”. But, since they had no previous experiences, their new life was, in some sense, a “childhood”, and everything was new for them.
There is some resemblance to Athena, who sprang from her father Zeus' head as a full grown adult.
Tolkien's themes are often influenced by his studies of world mythologies. On the other hand, he would have been concerned to keep things compatible with his Catholic sensibilities, and his respectable reputation as a professor at Oxford. Two World Wars would color his outlook as well. Then son Christopher added another layer of editing.
No matter which version of the story Tolkien himself preferred, the Silmarillion version is now so well know that it would take considerable effort to replace it in people's minds. (The Ingwë and Olwë of Fellowship of the Fourth Age prefer the Silmarillion version anyway.)

Tolkien explicitly says Aulë has a forge, but what exactly does he make in it? A forge isn't much use for making mountains, or dwarves. A forge suggests that the Valar can “work with their hands” in a way similar to created races.


Tolkien was hesitant about the Valar being able to create from nothing, since only Eru had that power. Creating waves, storms, mountains is probably more like rearranging existing matter, so it would not be a philosophical problem for Valar to do that.


Were Aulë's Dwarves foreshadowed in the Song? No one really knows. Eru would have known all in advance, but the Valar might not. There were subtleties in the Song that none of the Valar understood at the time.


Any large undertaking would require effort and concentration from the Valar. Why could the Valar not have created a new set of Trees, after Melkor destroyed the first ones? Are the Valar becoming less powerful as time goes on? Or is physical matter becoming more “fixed” are harder to shape?


How did the difference between MiddleEarth and the Undying Lands affect the Elves who lived in each place? How did living in the physical world, and living with Elves, affect the Valar? Certainly, by the Third Age, the Valar weren't directly using their powers much.


Why did the Valar use force against Morgoth, at the end of the First Age, but not against Sauron? Did they consider Sauron less of a threat? Or, more likely, they considered that Humans were now grown-up enough to handle Sauron themselves, with just a bit of advice and encouragement from the Wizards. Or, the Valar's influence was so subtle that the Humans and Hobbits in Lord of the Rings weren't aware of it. Some of the Valar's influence would have been in previous creations and events that they set in motion.


Manwë, Varda, and Ulmo, at least, keep informed of events in MiddleEarth. Although their information is not complete, and they need to make a deliberate effort to observe. There is a speculation that Tom Bombadil and Goldberry are Aulë and Yavanna in disguise.

D.J. wrote: "It certainly would have been fascinating to have been able to sit in on some of those conversations.

I am sure their interactions with each other influenced their work, however according to Lewis..."

It certainly would have been facinating to listen in on this group of indaviduals. Tolkien certainly was set on his ideas, thoughts and his creative works.

Welcome Vincent to the group and i am pleased that you have joined. x

Jamie wrote: "Hi everyone! I love Tolkien's work, thought I have lots to learn about Elvish. I wrote a research paper about him and was really fascinated by him. I'm currently reading through The Two Towers.

Th..."

Your welcome, and thank you for joining. x

Natalie wrote: "looking forward to learning from you all :)"

Welcome Natalie a' i' fellowship en' i' korma!

Another special welcome to Melissa, whose Elvish name is 'Glídan' (Sindarin), who is now a member of the fellowship.

Dena wrote: "I have this book. Loved it!!! I thought I knew everything there was to know about The Lord of the Rings, until I read the book. I literally couldnt put this down. I think I read it in about 2 hours..."

It is fantastic and a must-read!

Dena wrote: "I took the Fellowship of the Ring quiz. I thought I knew the book really well but boy, the quiz was tough. May have to read the book again. lol"

Not easy!! :)

A special welcome also to A.K Luthienne, author of 'The Sacred Quest' trilogy!
As a moderator (Luthien) and friend of the fellowship, i wish her well on the quest across Middle-Earth.

Tom wrote: "I still remember the animated ones as a kid (I recall) two; The Hobbit and a dark and stylishly animated LOTR). I'd like to revisit them now as an adult. I should look and see if there are good DVD..."

It is quite strange watching the LOTR animated film and then the current trilogy by PJ.

The LORD of the FILMS by J W Braun explores behind-the-scenes of those movies by Peter Jackson, who took Tolkien to the big screen.

Your thoughts on his films and others (i.e the animation) which took Tolkien's work and brought it to life.

The Hobbit ~ Bilbo, Gandalf and the company of Thorin Oakenshield's journey to the Lonely Mountain.

Gandalf coming
-All the dwarves coming
-the whole ordeal with the trolls
-the whole ordeal with gollum
-the defeat of Smaug

...now, lets discuss events in more detail!

Elevetha wrote: "Did you write this? O.O"

If incorect, please alter. I hope it is acurate enough?

Timeline ~

Basic overview of The Lord of the Rings.


•3001 - Bilbo Baggins turns 111. He announces his plan to leave The Shire and does so. Left behind, on purpose, is The One Ring. Frodo and Merry find the ring amongst Bilbo's possessions. Sometime late this year Gandalf suspects that Bilbo's ring is The One Ring.

•3004-3008 - Gandalf visits Frodo periodically, presumably to keep his eye on the new Ringbearer.

•3017 - Gollum is captured by Sauron's forces. He's tortured for information on The Ring.

•3018

•Aragorn captures Gollum and turns him over to King Thranduil of Mirkwood. He's held there, and questioned by Gandalf, who then leaves for the Shire.

•Gandalf visits Frodo, and determines the ring is The One Ring. This begins the quest, Frodo and Sam make plans to depart. A few months later, they depart with Pippin joining them.

•Orcs attack Mirkwood, Gollum escapes.

•Merry joins the group.

•The hobbits arrive in Bree at the Prancing Pony. They meet up with Aragorn.

•Aragorn and the hobbits arrive in Rivendell. At the end of the year, the Fellowship of the Ring is formed and departs Rivendell.

•3019

•They fail to cross the mountains via the pass of Caradhras, so they travel through Moria. Gollum starts following the Fellowship. In Moria, they are attacked by Orcs and a Balrog. Gandalf is separated from the rest of the Fellowship while battling a Balrog.

•The Fellowship goes to Lothlorien. There they meet Galadriel, and receive gifts. They depart down the great river Anduin.

•The Breaking of the Fellowship:

•Boromir attempts to steal the ring.

•Sam and Frodo head to Mordor.

•The group is attacked by Uruk-hai.

•Boromir dies in battle defending Merry and Pippin. They are abducted, and taken towards Isengard.

•Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli put Boromir into a funeral boat and follow the Uruk-hai who have Merry and Pippin.

•The Uruk-hai are attacked by the Rohirrim. Merry and Pippin escape and meet Treebeard and the Ents.

•Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli meet Gandalf, who is now 30% whiter. They head to Edoras. Then they head to Helm's Deep, and the Battle of Helm's Deep happens. Gandalf splits off prior to Helm's Deep and heads to Isengard.

•The Ents attack Isengard.

•Gandalf arrives at Isengard, and meets Merry, Pippin, and the Ents. Gandalf heads to Helm's Deep with backup of men and Huorns (ancient and powerful tree-like beings). They arrive at Helm's Deep and contribute to the victory. Gandalf, Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, King Theoden and his company go to Isengard to meet Saruman. Saruman is imprisoned.

•Gollum joins Frodo and Sam. They head to the Black Gate, then instead head to Minas Morgul.

•Pippin uses the Palantir, and is revealed to Sauron. Sauron mistakes him for the Ringbearer. Pippin and Gandalf head to Edoras, then onwards to Gondor. Merry swears fealty to Theoden.

•Theoden's men gather at Dunharrow. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli take the Paths of the Dead.

•Sam and Frodo are captured by Faramir's men. They are brought to Faramir, but he releases them, and they head to the path near Minas Morgul. They sneak in to Mordor, and make their way towards Mount Doom.

•Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli emerge from the Paths of the Dead, and start working their way towards Gondor, while defeating some of the backup for Sauron's forces.

•In Minas Tirith, Pippin swears fealty to Denethor.

•The Battle of Pelennor Fields

•Sauron's forces attack Minas Tirith.

•Gandalf and the forces in Minas Tirith defend the siege.

•Pippin and Gandalf save Faramir from Denethor's madness.

•The Rohirrim, including Merry, attack Sauron's forces.

•Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, and the dead join the battle.

•Aragorn heals a ton of people. Then the plan is formed to keep Sauron distracted from Frodo and Sam's progress. He, Gandalf, Legolas, Gimli, Pippin, and a host of others head to the Black Gate and meet the Mouth of Sauron and reject his terms. They then battle Sauron's forces.

•Frodo and Gollum destroy The One Ring in Mount Doom. Frodo and Sam are rescued by Gandalf and the Great Eagles.

•Everyone returns to Minas Tirith.

•Aragorn is crowned King. There was much rejoicing.

•Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin head home. Saruman gets to the Shire first, and sets up shop in Bag End. He enslaves the hobbits, and waits for Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin to return. They arrive and battle with Saruman, who is in the end betrayed by Wormtongue. Wormtongue in turn is killed by the hobbit forces.

•3021 - Frodo and Bilbo depart for the Grey Havens. Gandalf and many elves go with them. Sam, Merry, and Pippin see them off.

"It all began with the forging of the Great Rings. Three were given to the Elves; immortal, wisest and fairest of all beings. Seven, to the Dwarf Lords, great miners and craftsmen of the mountain halls. And nine, nine rings were gifted to the race of Men, who above all else desire power. For within these rings was bound the strength and the will to govern over each race. But they were all of them deceived, for another ring was made. In the land of Mordor, in the fires of Mount Doom, the Dark Lord Sauron forged in secret, a master ring, to control all others. And into this ring he poured all his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life. One ring to rule them all."