How the Biggest Book Club on Goodreads Is Making a Real-World Impact

Erma wrote: "I wouldn't call any of these "special privileges" (except for maybe the first, but I've yet to hear of this one...). Which one is "special"? "

I think they are a part of what is called "capitalism". Businesses trying to make more money by trying to appeal to women (or men, in some cases). But just like socialism is bad, I guess capitalism is bad, too.

Ladies' night is probably when women don't have to pay (as much) to get into a night club or something. (I guess some men would prefer to spend time with just other men, then...)

Tytti wrote: "Ladies' night is probably when women don't have to pay (as much) to get into a night club or something. (I guess some men would prefer to spend time with just other men, then...) ."

That makes sense. Our "night clubs" are the local game shops. Not much call for a special "Ladies night" there... Don't matter who you are, as long as you're nice to the noobs and don't make an ass of yourself...

They have probably been invented (I guess often by male owners/managers) to get more women into the place so that more men would come and enjoy, too. Of course it is not mandatory for men to go to those places on a ladies' night, just like women can choose to stay at home and eat ice cream if they think a regular fee is too expensive for they are offering. But I guess some people will blame feminists for that, too.

no one here is a human

Sorobai wrote: "This post gives me mixed fellings. If on one side I support any event to do with books and the promotion of reading. On the other side I tend to catch some allergy to self-promotion and all kind of..."

Ditto.

Pooyan wrote: "who is Emma Watson and who cares anyway?"

She's an oppressed millionaire.

Alivia wrote: "But feminism isn't focused on equality, otherwise it would focus on both genders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmzH9..."

We actually had this conversation in the group and talked about how to promote feminism is also to demand equality for men. It's not about trying to push everything female, it's about both sexes being treated equally, and with respect.

Name one thing that feminism has done for men. Oh, that's right, there aren't any...
Ergo stop spreading this bullshit about how feminism would be about both the sexes.
In any case, feminism has branded the white male as the source of all that's evil (although nearly every luxury we have today is becauseof white male scientists).

MeerderWörter wrote: "Folks:

I'll quote Emma to make sure we're talking about the same issues:

Feminism by definition is the belief of the social, economic and political equality of the sexes.

it is about opportuniti..."

Unfortunately feminism by reality is something completely different.

Breathing wrote: "(although nearly every luxury we have today is becauseof white male scientists). ."

With unlauded female assistants who did most of the work... Lol

And this is why, although they have roughly the same definition, I prefer to use the term 'Egalitarian'. Which apparently has it's own social taboos? o.O

Breathing wrote: "Name one thing that feminism has done for men. Oh, that's right, there aren't any..."

The opportunity to spend time and take care of their kids at home when the mother returns to work and as equal caregivers in general? Most fathers seem to value that.

Tytti wrote: "Breathing wrote: "Name one thing that feminism has done for men. Oh, that's right, there aren't any..."

The opportunity to spend time and take care of their kids at home when the mother returns to..."

Haha, you don't know a lot about men. Most men I know who are in that position value the time yes, but the position makes them feel not like men at all. Although one can state that this is shallow, thousands of years evolution cannot be just erased like that.
A position like the one you describe is suffocating for many men.

Now name me one achievement for men that was really asked for by men. Your former example, even if some men value it, is a mere sideproduct of the mass employment of women (which is by itself the tool to push for more individualism and consumption. Although I am in favour of working women)

Breathing wrote: "A position like the one you describe is suffocating for many men."

I actually knew you would say that. I hope you never have kids. Strange that I know plenty of men who have valued the opportunity to stay at home with their children. Maybe because they love them?

Of course the same situation can be equally suffocating to many women, so I guess you would prefer the babies are put into daycare as soon as they are born, right? Maybe they can stay there the nights, too, that would be best for everyone? Or I guess women prefer not to have children with men like you.

Tytti wrote: "Breathing wrote: "A position like the one you describe is suffocating for many men."

I actually knew you would say that. I hope you never have kids. Strange that I know plenty of men who have valu..."
Lol, again you're getting personal.
Still waiting for that one example, that one good thing that feminism has done for men in the long course of the ideology. Stop the strawmen please, it's getting tedious.

Breathing wrote: "Still waiting for that one example, that one good thing that feminism has done for men in the long course of the ideology."

Well if you are not interested in taking care of your own children, it's better for the children that you will never have them. It's quite simple.

And of course there will never be anything that you would consider "good for men" because you think (white) men have already had everything they have ever wanted, usually at the expense of other people, especially women. I guess men who, for example, like to take care of their children are not really men, then, or why is it that their opinion doesn't matter to you? At least the opinion or wishes of a woman clearly don't.

Tytti wrote: "Breathing wrote: "A position like the one you describe is suffocating for many men."

I actually knew you would say that. I hope you never have kids. Strange that I know plenty of men who have valu..."

Telling anyone, man or woman you hope they never have kids is a disgusting thing to say. You're a disgrace to humanity. I surely hope all feminists don't think like you.

Rory wrote: ""How many red herrings can one introduce to a very straightforward discussion? Equality is not a zero sum game. If women gain the right to compete for what they need without the artificial barriers..."

Well if the world of lawmaking is truly ruled by men, then it was men who gave those privileges and rights to women wasn't it?

The real game-changers of female equality were not the ones with placards on the street fighting only for their own class equality, it was the kind of women who stood up during the world wars and took the places of the absent males, kept the country economically sound, made weapons and literally built bridges. Those women did not do it in the name of feminism, or it would have been called a feminist movement, they did it in the name of society and showed what it takes to uphold it. They just happen to be women, and some feminists seem to think anything a woman does can be monopolised by women and used as a cause. Sometimes women d things independently of other people for their own personal achievement and in the name of nothing but their own pleasure. There are women almost a thousand years before the word feminism ever erupted who shunned the social rules of society, put on armour and rode into battle in full sight of everyone, the ultimate up yours to those rules. They didn't do it for feminism, they did it because they wanted to and were damn well good at it. And what happened? They were respected for it. They took autonomy by the throat and made it their own.

Some of this forum reads as if half the world's people are a kind of evil force out to destroy everything that makes women who they are, which is the real sadness in almost all the arguments I've read on here. Most arguments also omit the most important word when describing the destroyers of freedom, and that is 'some'. Some men are burdens on the morality of human beings, some men will go out of their way to be misogynist pigs, and some men will strive to banish the progression of women. If I had any of those men in my life I would cut them out immediately. If they are rejected by women entirely they cannot reproduce their genes and will be cut out of humanity's future. But how many people do you know in relationships with those kinds of men who do not reject them, and actually reproduce? But where the arguments for 'this woman could be your sister, daughter, mother etc., but is also a human being' lie, so do the same arguments for men. Blaming all males for the world's faults is as bad as calling your father or brother or son a racist, or sexist, or rapist, or homophobe purely because of his sex. People wonder why men get angry - constant tirades of 'well that man did that, and you're a man, so...'. There are so many words in the English language and yet so few are used to distinguish the actions of men who are vile dictators and religious nutjobs from the men who live and work beside you, sleep beside you, and actually support you in your lives, and I am not talking monetarily.

The true enemy to all these things we take for granted, and the evils our counterparts in harsher countries face on a daily basis, is the elite. It has always been the elite and it always will be until finally those who outnumber them greatly (everyone else) realises, and pulls them apart. The elite does not just comprise the buzz words 'white heterosexual male'. It is anyone who has enough money to buy influence and use it against everybody who cannot afford such a luxury. That is not a quality or lifestyle restricted to white heterosexual males, plenty of women in powerful positions are screwing everyone over perfectly well, too. And some of the men and women will be gay, black or brown too. Nobody is exempt from being a corrupt influence, nor from abandoning their cultures, heritage or sex in the run towards their own comfort at the expense of everyone else's.

Steve wrote: "Telling anyone, man or woman you hope they never have kids is a disgusting thing to say. You're a disgrace to humanity."

My main concern is the children, not selfish men. If their father doesn't want to take care of them, then he should have enough sense to not have them. Children need care and I would hate to see more children whose father don't want to spend time with them. He said himself that he thinks it's suffocating, so I expect him to make the decision not to have them. There are enough men in the world who think that the time with their children has been the best thing in their lives. And with that attitude I would hate to be his daughter (or gay son or anything "outside the norm")...

Also he would have to make enough money to pay for their child care, health care and education (in full, because socialism is bad) because one can hardly expect his wife to pay for them out of her tiny assistant's salary when outside of her own work she probably already has the full responsibility of the children and household so she neither has the energy or time to go for a better paying job, and no one would probably hire her anyway.

Erma wrote: "Breathing wrote: "Women in western countries have tons and tons of special privileges: they mostly don't have to pay as much as men when going out, they have special lady channels, special lady nig..."

Basically it's the night (or nights) when strip clubs give women (and gay men) discounts because they feature male dancers. Re: "As for "lady nights"... I don't know what that is. Really. Do I get a night of the week named for me or something?"

Tytti wrote: "Breathing wrote: "Still waiting for that one example, that one good thing that feminism has done for men in the long course of the ideology."

Well if you are not interested in taking care of your ..."

There's a hell of a lot of work to do for men's rights a well. Thank you for acknowledging that feminism hasn't solved any of those.
You can stop calling it an equality movement now and resort to female superiority movement. Atleast that would be honest.

Amber wrote: "Erma wrote: "Breathing wrote: "Women in western countries have tons and tons of special privileges: they mostly don't have to pay as much as men when going out, they have special lady channels, spe..."
Noyer le poisson.
Also, until you admit that the Cologne mass-rapes have happened, I don't deem you suitable to debate with.

Breathing wrote: "There's a hell of a lot of work to do for men's rights a well."

Like what? You can't expect fathers to have the custody of children in the case of divorce if they haven't taken care of them during the marriage, either.

In many places most of the decision makers are also men, so it's pretty difficult for women to do anything for "men's" rights. A lot of the violence is, again, violence between men, so again, there isn't much what women can do about it.

Jessica wrote: "Rory wrote: ""How many red herrings can one introduce to a very straightforward discussion? Equality is not a zero sum game. If women gain the right to compete for what they need without the artifi..."

I applaud your moderate and sensible comment, Jessica.

Tytti wrote: "Breathing wrote: "There's a hell of a lot of work to do for men's rights a well."

Like what? You can't expect fathers to have the custody of children in the case of divorce if they haven't taken c..."

The irony here- it tastes sweet- is that you refute your own allegations and I only have to gently push you. You just said that there are no men's rights to work for, thus rendering your own statement of feminism being for men too, null. That's right, null.

But if you wish to inform yourself you can look through this, a very simple list to start off with: http://listverse.com/2013/06/25/10-ex...

Breathing wrote: "Tytti wrote: "Breathing wrote: "There's a hell of a lot of work to do for men's rights a well."

Like what? You can't expect fathers to have the custody of children in the case of divorce if they h..."

If you have said "I tend to look at the world from my safe place, too scared to take part in the action," why ADMIT how scared you are to a group of people who AREN'T scared to do what you have admitted that you cannot because of your own fear? Not to mention your blatant written DISRESPECT for your ELDERS?

And at 38, I AM indeed one of your elders.

Amber wrote: "Breathing wrote: "Tytti wrote: "Breathing wrote: "There's a hell of a lot of work to do for men's rights a well."

Like what? You can't expect fathers to have the custody of children in the case of..."
You being older than me, doesn't make you my elder. 'Elder' is reserved for gerontocrats, meaning wise older people.

My dear Amber: if you start out by negating the Cologne rapes, how am I to believe you are wise?

Breathing wrote: "You just said that there are no men's rights to work for, thus rendering your own statement of feminism being for men too, null."

Because you think that only your opinion matters, not that of anyone else's, even other men.

And as I mentioned, if men act violent towards other men, there is not much women can do about it. Maybe it would be better if men would teach their sons how to behave but I guess that would be too suffocating.

The same with education: since when have boys listened to their mothers when they are saying they should study more? Why there are not that many male teachers?

Why don't men go to see a doctor if they are not feeling well? How many women have tried to get their husbands to see one and failed? What do you expect other women to do about it?

Why does the society (often other men) think that men can't be victims of domestic violence? Could it be that masculine ideal? You think that socialism is bad so what do you expect individual women to do about homelessness? How many men are homeless because they were alcoholists or drug users before losing their home? You think there was some woman who made them use drugs?

Many of those issues are things that are controlled by men themselves. Women already have a lot to do with their own rights and jobs, and you are asking them to decide what is good for men, too, and even force men to do something? Why there is no prostate cancer campaign? You are against feminism but at the same time you demand that women take care of all the men, too? Even though they are not in a position to make any decisions for them?

And I thought this was "funny": "the reason for this is a basic sexism on the part of conservative male judges" because they sounds just like you.

And you probably didn't bother to read the last point: "Of all the problems I’ve mentioned above, none is so damaging to men as our own notions of masculinity. For all internet commenters like to claim feminism is holding men back and turning us into victims, the reality is we’re doing a perfectly good job of it ourselves. As fathers, we teach boys to lash out instead of restrain themselves. As a culture we teach men to hide their emotions even if it kills them. As a society we teach boys to aim low and not educate themselves for a well-paying job. And look where that’s got us: prone to suicide, prone to homelessness, often unable to see our kids and unwilling to confront violence with anything but more violence. "

Tytti wrote: "Breathing wrote: "You just said that there are no men's rights to work for, thus rendering your own statement of feminism being for men too, null."

Because you think that only your opinion matters..."

Nice, showing even more how double standards are interweaven with feminism. And the way you enforce that feminism is misandrist by completely failing to see how men's issues are issues indeed, priceless.

Truly, read your comments over and try not to see how you're aguing your own arguments into the ground.

Breathing wrote: "Nice, showing even more how double standards are interweaven with feminism. And the way you enforce that feminism is misandrist by completely failing to see how men's issues are issues indeed, priceless."

So basically you are saying that women should decide for everything for all men? They are just children who can't be held responsible for their own actions. Because that would be the only way most of those problems could be solved by women or feminists or something like that.

Looke Tytti, you're embarassing yourself.
We've had the direct personal assault, the strawman, the 'putting words in my mouth',... And now this, the blatant lie.

Just stop

Breathing wrote: "Looke Tytti, you're embarassing yourself.
We've had the direct personal assault, the strawman, the 'putting words in my mouth',... And now this, the blatant lie.

Just stop"

You're wasting your time trying to debate with this woman. She has zero compassion or empathy or reasoning. Nothing you say will change that. She has only demonstrated the hateful side of feminism. I'm sure not all feminists are like this but they don't appear to be queuing up to say so either.

You are the one blaming feminists for all the problems men are causing to themselves and to other men. It's pretty pathetic really.

*****
"And since our culture loves to reward aggression—in the boardroom, on the sports field, in the military—it’s easy to see why unlearning that lesson might be next to impossible."

"But because of our dumb ideas of masculinity no-one even wants to talk about it – and young lives continue to be wasted."

"we’re somehow teaching young boys that either learning is ‘girl’s stuff’, or that there’s no point in being aspirational. "

"The main reason for this is the education gap we just talked about – women as a group are more qualified, so are therefore entitled to earn more."

"For a whole host of stupid reasons, our culture continues to see men who are abused by women as pathetic, unmanly and even undeserving of sympathy."

"But, unlike breast cancer, no-one has yet been brave enough to start a media discussion about prostate cancer; meaning the idea of, say, doing a fun-run to raise money for research is still considered kinda weird."

"the reason for this is a basic sexism on the part of conservative male judges—who tend to still think women should be at home with the children while men are out earning money."
*****
Most of these are issues that stem from a sexist society, which is exactly what feminists are trying to change. But the solution lies in the hands of men, not women.

Steve wrote: "Breathing wrote: "Looke Tytti, you're embarassing yourself.
We've had the direct personal assault, the strawman, the 'putting words in my mouth',... And now this, the blatant lie.

Just stop"

Yo..."

You are probably right.

Steve wrote: "She has zero compassion or empathy or reasoning."

Reasoning? I am not demanding that women do everything for men when they seem to be unable or unwilling to take any responsibility for anything, including their own children.

Breathing wrote: "You are probably right."

From your own link:

"As the journalist Ally Fogg recently said:

“The truth is that even if every single feminist of every single flavour abandoned feminism today and went back to bed with a good book for the rest of her life, it would make barely a jot of difference to the real and significant problems facing men.”

And, until we find a way to separate those good parts of traditional masculinity from the absurdly-damaging ones, this will always be the case."

And I would continue that no matter what women try to do to solve men's problems (and plenty of them do try, they work in those fields), it doesn't make much of a difference, either, because women are not the main cause of men's problems, men themselves and the masculine society is.

Alivia wrote: "But feminism isn't focused on equality, otherwise it would focus on both genders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmzH9..."

I'd give you a like if I could ;)

Elly wrote: "Alivia wrote: "But feminism isn't focused on equality, otherwise it would focus on both genders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmzH9..."

I'd give you a like if I could ;)"

Yes Lauren Southern is a great lady. She truly does represent equality. There are other ladies as well who are turning away from feminism because of the radical side of it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4R8...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYmgJ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqWe0...
These sort of videos are all over the internet nowadays. And some feminists can't understand why feminism has a bad name, even when their own gender are turning their backs on it. The sad thing is these women get a load of abuse for speaking out like this. Isn't it time feminism as a whole denounced these radicals. How can you possibly expect men to respect feminism when we hear crap like this...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1JQU...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la_U...

Alivia wrote: "But feminism isn't focused on equality, otherwise it would focus on both genders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmzH9..."

Actually, a big part of the conversation about feminism right now is about both.. err. all genders. Why call it "feminism", then? Why mostly talk about women's issues? Because while I think things like forced military service, lack of paternal leave/benefits from many work places, unique challenges of single fatherhood, toxicity of violent "machismo"culture, etc are incredibly unfair to men, women have historically been the ones with limited access to.. well.. everything. we've had voting rights and access to most ivy-league schools for less than a hundred years (not counting women's colleges). we still don't make the same average pay rate as men, still have higher numbers of sexual assault victims, still are represented in the media, public office, and other positions of power less than men, etc etc etc. If you've got a machine that's malfunctioning, and one part of the machine just needs a bit of a tune-up while another part has A LOT of work to be done on it, surely you'd give a little extra TLC to the part that needs it most...

Anny wrote: "Some comments on here really make me sad. Wish we could all just appreciate that amazing book club...!!

I wish I could bake a cake filled with rainbows and smiles and everyone would eat and be h..."

Haters gotta hate. pffahh, let them if they've got nothing better to do. I'll have a piece of that cake!

Kat wrote: "Because while I think things like forced military service, lack of paternal leave/benefits from many work places, unique challenges of single fatherhood, toxicity of violent "machismo"culture, etc are incredibly unfair to men..."

Also the key to many of these things is in the hands of men, not women. There is very little feminism can do about the military service when there are few if any women making any decisions about military. Most women don't have the answers to change things because they don't know much about it. I don't have a better solution than the mandatory conscription and it seems neither do the (male) politicians, most of whom have served themselves, or the generals. I am not sure they would even want a large number of women serving in the military. Also most of the wars have been started by men, so...

The same with the "machismo" culture: most women would prefer that it didn't exist but what can you do about it, it's not like they want to listen to women. But it seems that these "men's rights activists" are mainly interested in blaming feminists (and women) and not actually doing something for the other men. Though as I was told before, parental leaves make men feel "suffocated", so I guess they don't want those, either.

I had no idea that this group existed, but I think it's great that Emma Watson can help influence so many, and also help spread awareness.☺

Really interesting discussion! I stumbled across this when all I wanted to do was rate my latest book.

But seriously, a book club that is making a real world impact? Give me a break. Just like "#bringbackourgirls" freed all those Nigerian girls, right? Oh, wait. They're still sex slaves to Islamic terrorists.

Gloria Steinem and The Color Purple? Is there not anything new and refreshing in the world of feminist thought??? This kind of proves that "modern feminism" is a washed-out, has-been philosophy.

This book club should be reading Ayaan Hirsi Ali. She is a truly heroic woman who is actually fighting the real enemy of women: backwards religions and backwards cultures (and I don't mean Western!)

Kat wrote: "Alivia wrote: "But feminism isn't focused on equality, otherwise it would focus on both genders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmzH9..."

Hi Kat
For some reason a reply will only show a small proportion of a post. I've copy/pasted this part of your reply for now.

""Actually, a big part of the conversation about feminism right now is about both.. err. all genders. Why call it "feminism", then? Why mostly talk about women's issues? Because while I think things like forced military service, lack of paternal leave/benefits from many work places, unique challenges of single fatherhood, toxicity of violent "machismo"culture, etc are incredibly unfair to men,""

Firstly where is this big conversation taking place about both genders. I've looked through the "our shared shelf" group and with over 100,000 members and over 500 topics I can't find one that relates to men's issues at all but I will confess to only going by the topic headers.
I'm pleased you do recognize that unfairness towards men does exist. I'll be presumptuous and assume you define yourself as a feminist. If I am wrong please tell me so.
As feminism claims to seek equality for both genders then please explain to me why feminists are not addressing these unfair issues against men? It appears very hypocritical when the HeForShe site campaigns to sign up men to a cause to stand with women on their issues but chooses to ignore men's issues.

What qualifies Emma Watson to be a goodwill ambassador?

"The UN has enlisted the volunteer services and support of prominent personalities from the worlds of art, music, film, sport and literature to highlight key issues and to draw attention to its activities."

I'd say Emma Watson qualifies as a prominent personality from the world of film, and she is undoubtedly able to draw attention. That's what qualifies her: it is not a Nobel prize, people, it's a volunteer job for famous faces. It is kind of pointless to criticize a celebrity goodwill ambassador to center a discussion of an important issue around herself - that's what she's actually here for.

This is offensive to good taste. Keep your politics out of my library.

I forget quickly especially on social movement. How I can get in touch with this especially equality about women.

Alivia wrote: "But feminism isn't focused on equality, otherwise it would focus on both genders.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmzH9..."

Feminists do focus on men, but on men that are considered a minority. There is no use in focusing on already privileged group of people, the point is to promote those that are not, so that they could both be on the same level.

Anny wrote: "Some comments on here really make me sad. Wish we could all just appreciate that amazing book club...!!"

Same.

Francesca wrote: "In certain countries, we may not face the same amount of inequality as women in other countries do but that doesn't mean that we don't still have inequalities. We do. Just like Maris said, pretendi..."

Nicely put.

Steve wrote: "As feminism claims to seek equality for both genders then please explain to me why feminists are not addressing these unfair issues against men? "

Yeah, like you address them here by blaming all feminists and probably most women in general for men's problems that are mainly caused by other men? Here's a suggestion: do something about them, don't just expect women who have their hands full already to talk about things they know nothing about and who have no control over them.

Or is it feminists' fault that men kill themselves, or that they don't go to see a doctor, or that boys won't be bothered to study? A less sexist society would help everyone but some men just keep spewing misogyny. Great tactic...