Let's talk about... Cheating
Yeah, this is a hot topic for some readers of MM (and M/F) romance.
I read an interesting thread on cheating on Facebook.
One reader made the point that cheating happens in real life, that life isn't perfect.
Another felt that if the relationship was bad, i.e. abusive, then maybe the idea of cheating was not so abhorrent. But if it was simply a case of one partner being unable to keep his hands off someone else, then definitely - no.
What amazed me was how vehement some people were about the issue. They might get all the way through a book but as soon as the element of cheating reared its head, they wouldn't finish, or, what was worse in my mind, give it a really low rating. Not because it was a badly written book, you understand, but because there was CHEATING in it.
I understand that cheating isn't necessarily sexual. You can cheat emotionally on a partner by longing after someone else, even secretly.
I have a couple of friends whose story I would LOVE to write, but you know what? It's not gonna happen. Because the way they live isn't 'conventional' and to many, all they would see is cheating. When First was released, I waited for the reviews with a mixture of anticipation and dread. I'd done my best to get across that Mike having sex with guys on camera was NOT the same thing as him being in a relationship with them, that this was his job. Okay, so he's chosen a job where he gets paid to have sex. Does that mean he's not entitled to want a loving partner too?
Let's go back to my friends. They're in the industry, and they are walking proof that, so long as they are first in the other's heart, they understand that sex elsewhere isn't an indication of anything other than two guys having a little social fun. It's all about what the "contract" the couple has (hopefully) talked through and set up. They made it clear that neither of them is quite monogamous in inclination; they are well matched that way. And because it's understood that sex outside the relationship is not forbidden, then it is no longer 'cheating' on the odd occasion that it does happen. And knowing them as I do? I don't doubt for ONE SECOND that they love each other and that they are indeed first in each other's hearts
Surely people are able to think past a simplistic pigeonhole box that defines something. Surely we can raise ourselves above that...
Having said that? Maybe not.
Okay, time for some home truths here.
Partners cheat on each other. They get found out. Sometimes they're forgiven, sometimes not. If they do forgive, they work through their problems, work on making their relationship better, overcoming obstacles... Surely these are all elements of a good story. Without some conflict - unless you specifically want to read something low-angst and feel-good - a story would end up being a damn sight shorter and a whole lot more boring. And if you're invested in a book, in the characters, why would you put it aside if one of them cheated?
The story matters. How it's written. The language it uses. The emotions it evokes.
If you've had a bad experience with cheating, don't let that color your enjoyment of what might be a brilliantly written book. And don't let your emotional baggage color how others might view the book.
I'm sorry, but shit happens. That's life. That's real life. How many times have I read a comment that a storyline wasn't real?
Maybe some things are just too real for some readers.
I read an interesting thread on cheating on Facebook.
One reader made the point that cheating happens in real life, that life isn't perfect.
Another felt that if the relationship was bad, i.e. abusive, then maybe the idea of cheating was not so abhorrent. But if it was simply a case of one partner being unable to keep his hands off someone else, then definitely - no.
What amazed me was how vehement some people were about the issue. They might get all the way through a book but as soon as the element of cheating reared its head, they wouldn't finish, or, what was worse in my mind, give it a really low rating. Not because it was a badly written book, you understand, but because there was CHEATING in it.
I understand that cheating isn't necessarily sexual. You can cheat emotionally on a partner by longing after someone else, even secretly.
I have a couple of friends whose story I would LOVE to write, but you know what? It's not gonna happen. Because the way they live isn't 'conventional' and to many, all they would see is cheating. When First was released, I waited for the reviews with a mixture of anticipation and dread. I'd done my best to get across that Mike having sex with guys on camera was NOT the same thing as him being in a relationship with them, that this was his job. Okay, so he's chosen a job where he gets paid to have sex. Does that mean he's not entitled to want a loving partner too?
Let's go back to my friends. They're in the industry, and they are walking proof that, so long as they are first in the other's heart, they understand that sex elsewhere isn't an indication of anything other than two guys having a little social fun. It's all about what the "contract" the couple has (hopefully) talked through and set up. They made it clear that neither of them is quite monogamous in inclination; they are well matched that way. And because it's understood that sex outside the relationship is not forbidden, then it is no longer 'cheating' on the odd occasion that it does happen. And knowing them as I do? I don't doubt for ONE SECOND that they love each other and that they are indeed first in each other's hearts
Surely people are able to think past a simplistic pigeonhole box that defines something. Surely we can raise ourselves above that...
Having said that? Maybe not.
Okay, time for some home truths here.
Partners cheat on each other. They get found out. Sometimes they're forgiven, sometimes not. If they do forgive, they work through their problems, work on making their relationship better, overcoming obstacles... Surely these are all elements of a good story. Without some conflict - unless you specifically want to read something low-angst and feel-good - a story would end up being a damn sight shorter and a whole lot more boring. And if you're invested in a book, in the characters, why would you put it aside if one of them cheated?
The story matters. How it's written. The language it uses. The emotions it evokes.
If you've had a bad experience with cheating, don't let that color your enjoyment of what might be a brilliantly written book. And don't let your emotional baggage color how others might view the book.
I'm sorry, but shit happens. That's life. That's real life. How many times have I read a comment that a storyline wasn't real?
Maybe some things are just too real for some readers.
message 1:
by
Andrea
(new)
Nov 03, 2015 06:22AM
I read - a lot. As in at least 1 book a day, and I get tired of reading what begins to seem like the same old story with slightly different characters. I like something that takes me out of my personal comfort zone. I like flawed characters and life that seems real. In First, I was sort of disappointed to have the MC retire from the life. I've read a lot of porn setting books and not once have I found one that has either one or both continuing happily in their profession. They either quit or have a firm date to do so.
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You make a good point. I heard some readers discussing this at GRL. One said that having one or both of them continuing happily was not an option, as far as most readers were concerned. A friend in the industry said it seemed to be a case that Porn = BAD. That you couldn't be in the industry and be in a loving relationship. I had Mike quit because it was the right time - he'd already been thinking about it. I think Tommy gave him the push he needed. But I know a lot of readers don't like the idea of being a porn star AND a partner. Maybe authors write the way they do because they know the market, what will be accepted.
It's not just cheating, I find all sorts of strange complaints in reviews. I actually saw one where a reviewer was annoyed because one of the characters' families was too large. Really?In real life there are all kinds of people, and they all have flaws. Authors should be able to write their stories. Reviews should reflect the writing, not whether or not the story was written to your liking. I would never put down a book for cheating. That's crazy.
I suspect that if I was partnered with a porn star, that both of us would be pretty hot. So, there's that. I also know that a couple can compartmentalize sex and love, and that for some sex outside the relationship can work just fine. But I also know it's exhausting and takes effort, and makes the relationship vulnerable because humans are human. I'm not sure I really want to read about it, but a novel that deals with it as a narrative could be illuminating. It would make me anxious. PS, I have given four star ratings to books I hated because of the content...but I never discount writing quality.
K.C. - I'd like to give you some constructive feedback so that you have a better understanding of where readers who "abhor" cheating in their romance books are coming from. I do a LOT of socializing on GR (and offline with GR people). A good many of my GR friends feel the same as me, and we've had many conversations about this. Of course, as you say, cheating happens in real life. I doubt anyone would dispute you on that. But I read romance to escape RL. I want my drama and angst (just enough) to be wrapped up in its pretty HEA bow. Cheating is an automatic deal breaker for me in my books 99% of the time. It has to be written extremely well for me to be ok with it. VERY few authors can pull this off for me. Having said that, I'll DNF and give a low rating mostly because I wasn't warned. I need a tag for this. Just telling you my personal opinion. It's such a big deal to me - once again, I read romance to escape real life - so if I come across it with no warning, that's why I get upset. And I've heard the same opinion expressed countless times over by other readers/reviewers on GR and other sites, such as Leafmarks.
I don't wish to get into a debate over this - that's not my intention. My intention is only to offer you an understanding of where I (and probably other readers) are coming from with their strong opinions on cheating in romance. I'd never tell an author what to write. They can write anything they could ever dream up. Including cheating. But I can read and review whatever and however I want as well. Review space is for readers and not for authors.
Renée wrote: "K.C. - I'd like to give you some constructive feedback so that you have a better understanding of where readers who "abhor" cheating in their romance books are coming from. I do a LOT of socializin..."Well said. Respectful too. Thanks for posting.
Renée wrote: "K.C. - I'd like to give you some constructive feedback so that you have a better understanding of where readers who "abhor" cheating in their romance books are coming from. I do a LOT of socializin..."But reviews and ratings help authors get readers. So by giving a book a low rating or a bad review because the content didn't suit you, you are telling authors what they can and cannot write. By making a book's rating lower than it should be because it did not suit you, you are harming that author's sales for personal reasons.
Momof3-in an Ash and Cael sandwich wrote: "Renée wrote: "K.C. - I'd like to give you some constructive feedback so that you have a better understanding of where readers who "abhor" cheating in their romance books are coming from. I do a LOT..."Thanks Momo!
Michelle wrote: "Renée wrote: "K.C. - I'd like to give you some constructive feedback so that you have a better understanding of where readers who "abhor" cheating in their romance books are coming from. I do a LOT...""So by giving a book a low rating or a bad review because the content didn't suit you, you are telling authors what they can and cannot write."
No, I'm not at all. I'm reviewing my overall reading experience. When I spend money to purchase a product, I get to choose if I want to share a review - to other readers - detailing my experience reading the book. And my experience encompasses more than if the author is a good writer. It may include horrific editing mistakes, huge plot holes, a big jump from characterization, etc. But it could've still been well-written. It takes more than writing well to get a 5 star review.
And, regardless, it's still my prerogative what I write in any review just as it's any author's choice to write whatever they like.
Renée wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Renée wrote: "K.C. - I'd like to give you some constructive feedback so that you have a better understanding of where readers who "abhor" cheating in their romance books are coming..."Of course it's your prerogative, but by punishing an author for not writing the story just the way you like it, you are hitting the author where it hurts, possible sales. It is fine to say in your review that it you were disappointed that there was cheating, but if you are basing your whole review and rating on that, if it was otherwise well written with an interesting story and well developed characters, then you are just using the review as punishment.
It goes without saying that a review is based on many things. That was what I was saying. So if you automatically give a bad rating and review for cheating, you are doing it wrong. Also, if you think that an author can write whatever they want, you might need to know that most are trying to earn a living. If people are going to contribute falsely to the ratings because they didn't like one thing about the book, then they don't really believe that an author can write what he or she wants.
So tell me, what rating would you give a well written book with well developed characters, a strong plot, and cheating? Based on what you say you believe, it should be 4 star.
Renée wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Renée wrote: "K.C. - I'd like to give you some constructive feedback so that you have a better understanding of where readers who "abhor" cheating in their romance books are coming..."Here's a great idea. Go sit down and come up with a great idea for a story. Write an outline (or not if it suits you) and write a story of at least 60,000 words.After you have put in all the time of writing, rewriting, editing, changing, and rewriting some more, THEN I want you to come back and tell me how it's okay for someone to tear down your hard work because of one aspect that s/he didn't like. Until you have written that novel, please don't say that an excessively low rating for cheating (or a large family, or a man who isn't masculine enough, or first person, or whatever someone decides might ruin an otherwise perfectly good book for them) does not manipulate what a writer can write, if s/he hopes to make money.
Michelle wrote: "you are doing it wrong."Really? YOU think how I write a review of MY reading experience for a product that I paid money for is wrong? Hmmmmmm.
Michelle wrote: you "don't really believe that an author can write what he or she wants."
I'm glad that you are inside of my head since I specifically said otherwise. The arrogance at this point is just choking me.
Renee wrote: "I don't wish to get into a debate over this."
Since you have nothing constructive or respectful to say, Michelle, I'm out.
Hmm. I guess the truth hurts. I can't figure out what's more arrogant than cutting down an author's work because of personal taste in what can and can't go in a story. I guess we won't be reading Renee's book any time soon.
Hey Michelle, Renee doesn't purport to be an author. :) Neither do I, by the way, but I am a prolific reviewer. I'm also a big fan of K.C.'s books and an even bigger fan of her as a person. She's pretty awesome and talented.
I have a doctorate in rhetoric. In one of my courses I had to read Gertrude Stein's The Making of Americans. In all my years of reading, studying, and analyzing classics, nothing prepared me for that novel. I loathed it. Hated it. Couldn't get through it. I would give it one star. YUP. Gertrude Fucking Stein and ONE STAR.
*gasps*
(I haven’t rated it yet on GR, but I may just do that soon.)
My professor argued with me over the book’s merits. We disagreed. He was obsessed with Stein's prose; he thought the book was brilliant. I still got an A in the course: because I GAVE REASONS for my “rating.” (This was academia, so no stars, but you know what I mean.) Even more shocking: he's still teaching the book. :)
My point is: Readers and reviewers have a right to respond subjectively to a book, even if it's brilliant according to some. Even if it's well written. Even if it's Stein. Or Steinbeck. Or Shakespeare.
And in a genre like romance, which people read to escape, to laugh, maybe to cry, that's a given. If there was a well-written book about sex with a child or with a rapist as an MC, should I give it four stars because it's well-written? Pedophilia is sadly real life too, no? But it’s abhorrent, and I believe a book like that automatically deserves one star. PERIOD.
Reactions to romance novels in particular are often emotional. What I think is rather unfair is when people give a book one or two stars and don't write a review to back up their rating. That's kind of lame all around.
I just gave a book two stars, even though there was nothing wrong with the writing, because it didn't have enough steam and focused too much on baby dragons. How dare I! The travesty!
Look, people will read my review, and some will still read the book. But those who don't like no-sex books about dragons won't, and that's okay. It actually saves on frustration and more low ratings for the author.
I have a good friend on Goodreads who doesn’t like explicit sexual content in her romance novels. She sometimes dislikes a story partly because it’s too over-the-top sexual FOR HER, but thinks, Hey, I bet Dani would like this.
We’re different people with different experiences, personalities, and reactions. It’s what makes the world go round.
Reviewers don't have all the power. People can and DO think for themselves. We all have a right to dislike a book for any number of reasons. Goodreads is here so people can share their OPINIONS of books.
People have any number of reactions toward art in general. It’s ART: creative, messy, personal, private, public. Many artists like controversy because it brings attention to their work, even if it’s negative attention. The death of a book is no reaction, no thought, no opinion.
Incidentally, I’m not here to argue with you, but I don’t think you’re doing K.C. any favors by fighting a war on her blog post.
~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Hey Michelle, Renee doesn't purport to be an author. :) Neither do I, by the way, but I am a prolific reviewer. I'm also a big fan of K.C.'s books and an even bigger fan of her as a person. She's..."
Thank God! Word word word. Renee posted a very respectful comment and was open for productive discussion. All she got back was sarcasm. Not right.
I find it depressing that people who like to read think it is okay to be disrespectful to authors. This is not a war. I was not being sarcastic. I just think that people need to take the whole picture into consideration. Knocking down someone's hard work for one thing seems wrong to me, but apparently, I am the only one who is not permitted to have an opinion.
Well said Renee and Dani.I rate on my enjoyment, we all have baggage and yes it colours our opinions - thats life, thats why we read reviews. Seeing a one star review with the comment stating cheating or racism or noncon or death, doesn't mean that book is bad, it means not everyone has liked it and lets people with that trigger avoid it.
Because hell if something upsets you, you're entitled to not read it, not pay for it, regardless of it's quality.
The point of reviews is not to punish or reward. It shares opinion, subjective opinion. Or they serve no purpose.
Michelle wrote: "I find it depressing that people who like to read think it is okay to be disrespectful to authors. This is not a war. I was not being sarcastic. I just think that people need to take the whole pict..."If you weren't allowed to have an opinion you wouldn't be able to comment on this thread. It is the way one chooses to express this opinion.
Reviews are opinions too. First and foremost for other readers and maybe for some feedback to the authors. A negative review is in no way punishment to the author. It's the overall experience you had with the book.
Dani said it best.
Michelle wrote: "I find it depressing that people who like to read think it is okay to be disrespectful to authors. This is not a war. I was not being sarcastic. I just think that people need to take the whole pict..."But that's real life.
We are all evaluated all the time on our work. Students evaluate their professors. Clients complain about sales people. Customers bitch about service. It's business!
Writing and other art forms are more personal than that. I get that. But if I doled out five star ratings like candy, no one would take my reviews seriously. There's no good without the bad.
My friends on GR know that I don't inflate my ratings, so when I give a book five stars, it means something.
I once presented a research proposal that was shot down by the grant committee. I was devastated. I spent weeks working on it.
But I learned and moved on. It was not my place to throw a tantrum and complain.
As Meep stated, reading is a subjective experience.
Good authors will always find an audience.
Eleftheria wrote: "Michelle wrote: "I find it depressing that people who like to read think it is okay to be disrespectful to authors. This is not a war. I was not being sarcastic. I just think that people need to ta..."Absolutely! Some authors are hit or miss for me depending on the book.
In my reviews, positive or negative, I always give reasons for my rating.
That's not being disrespectful. That's being a smart, involved reader with quirks, expectations, and life experience.
Meep wrote: "Well said Renee and Dani.I rate on my enjoyment, we all have baggage and yes it colours our opinions - thats life, thats why we read reviews. Seeing a one star review with the comment stating che..."
Yup. Just because so many Americans despise vegemite doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. Taste is personal.
Vegemite practically gets hate mail. People still eat it. ;)
~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Hey Michelle, Renee doesn't purport to be an author. :) Neither do I, by the way, but I am a prolific reviewer. I'm also a big fan of K.C.'s books and an even bigger fan of her as a person. She's..."
Well said Dani
Wow! This discussion took a turn I wasn't expecting. I think Dani's response was really well said and my only addition is that I'm actually pretty wary when a book has too many glowing reviews and always seek out the one and two star reviews to see what people didn't like.
Michelle wrote: "Knocking down someone's hard work for one thing seems wrong to me."But if a reviewer gives a low rating along with an explanation why he/she personally did not like something in the book, how is that knocking down someone's work?
What else are reviews for if not for people to be able to express their opinions? If they were not personal, we would just need one review for each book summing up the number of typos and grammatical errors in the book to keep it neutral and objective.
Well, this is good to know. Now that I know how many people rate based on expecting the story to go exactly they way they wanted to, I will ignore ratings completely from now on. Thanks guys.
Michelle wrote: "Well, this is good to know. Now that I know how many people rate based on expecting the story to go exactly they way they wanted to, I will ignore ratings completely from now on. Thanks guys."I think you're really missing the point. I've been a very involved member of the M/M romance reading community on GR for more than three years.
Most of my friends do not have "expectations" of how a story will go.
What we're all trying to get at is that people are not robots. We have complex, emotional reactions to books.
Most of my friends rate on content, writing style, and editing (no typos, grammar errors), as well as plot, character, and relationship development.
My "ideal" M/M romance is high on the steam, lower on the angst, has no babymama/kid drama or cheating, doesn't include a lot of complicated mystery/suspense points, and ends with a HEA.
That being said, I've given books that in no way meet that criteria 5 and 4 stars.
For example:
I gave K.C.'s book 4 stars even though it included porn and sex with other people during the relationship. In my review, I stated: "Porn star stories aren't my favorite, but K.C. does her research, and this book neither glorifies nor vilifies the porn industry."
I love Amy Lane, but I avoid her angsty stuff. I read this book not expecting that (view spoiler) That is so NOT my cuppa.
Yet I still gave the book 4 stars and stated in my review: "This book is big. It's creative. I didn't enjoy reading it, but I can't fault it."
Another 4 stars went to this Lisa Henry book which was dark and depressing, and didn't have a HEA. I stated in my review: "The truth is I didn't enjoy reading this book. It was frustrating and heavy, cloaked in hopelessness and sorrow. But I won't forget it."
These are just three of NUMEROUS examples. Some of my favorite books did not "meet my expectations." But I've also given low-angst, sweet books with a HEA lower ratings for a number of reasons.
And that's because I'm a critical reader who can think for herself.
I try to avoid books that include "triggers" (sexual abuse/violence/torture on page; incest; rape; no HEA/HFN). I would rather not read a book that's going to tick me off, you know?
This is all we're saying here, Michelle. No one is out to ruin authors' careers. We all just love reading and sharing our thoughts about the books we read.
~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Well, this is good to know. Now that I know how many people rate based on expecting the story to go exactly they way they wanted to, I will ignore ratings completely from now on. T..."All this. This is exactly how I rate and review books. Following the same logic, I gave First 4 stars too.
Also, despite the cheating I gave Bareback 5 stars
and despite the fact that things DID NOT go as I wanted them to, I gave Beneath the Stain 5 stars too.
And really,what is the "right" way to review, if not this?
Again, well said Dani.We're all different.
I've read books all my friends have loved yet hated them.
I've even read badly written books; desperately in need of an editor but so full of character that I enjoyed them, I know some would complain.
I've given five stars to books while pointing out how deeply ridiculous the plot was.
Some people react strongly to cheating, they have that right.
A good review says what bothered that reader. As living thinking people we can decide if the same would bother us.
Cheating is one trigger of countless others and the word here is trigger not expectation.
Doesn't matter if the prose makes angels weep - if a reader has a negative reation to some content then their rating has the right to reflect that.
An author can only write their best and be true to their characters. They'll never please everyone.
Hating a book is not hating the author - I respect everyone who completes and publishes, can't promise to like all they put out though.
Eleftheria wrote: "~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Well, this is good to know. Now that I know how many people rate based on expecting the story to go exactly they way they wanted to,..."Maybe a better way would be to rate based on the number of times a peacoat is mentioned in a story, with the rating being in inverse proportion to the peacoat mentions?
No peacoat = five stars!
~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Eleftheria wrote: "~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Well, this is good to know. Now that I know how many people rate based on expecting the story to go exactly they ..."As long as we can have a drinking game at the same time too.
A peacoat mention= one shot of tequila
Forget stars you can measure by Tequila bottles :D
Meep wrote: "Forget stars you can measure by Tequila bottles :D"Now that's an idea!
For me, cheating is a direct reflection of a person's moral fiber. It happens in real life, but when I encounter it in real life, I disapprove. Therefore, if it's something I dislike in friends (in whom I already have a personal investment), I'm going to doubly dislike fictional MCs (in whom I have no investment) who cheat. I can't sympathize with an MC who doesn't have a moral core. And if I can't sympathize with an MC in a romance, I'm going to give that book a poor rating.
Eleftheria wrote: "~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Eleftheria wrote: "~✡~Dαni(ela) ♥ ♂♂ love & semi-colons~✡~ wrote: "Michelle wrote: "Well, this is good to know. Now that I know how many people rate ..."You two would manage to bring that up! I love you both so much!!! Peacoats and guns.....
Eve wrote: "For me, cheating is a direct reflection of a person's moral fiber. It happens in real life, but when I encounter it in real life, I disapprove. Therefore, if it's something I dislike in friends (in..."I feel much the same way, Eve.
Renée wrote: "You two would manage to bring that up! I love you both so much!!! Peacoats and guns..... "Guns WHILE wearing a peacoat! Double shot! ;)
Meep wrote: "Again, well said Dani.We're all different.
I've read books all my friends have loved yet hated them.
I've even read badly written books; desperately in need of an editor but so full of character..."
Well stated, Meep.
I have a friend who will automatically one star any M/M romance book where he encounters the word "clean" to define an MC who does not have HIV or other STDs. He writes up a short review giving his reason and DNF.
I would never do that. I used to seriously get annoyed with his ratings, but then I thought about it and realized: I'm not HIM. I have not had the same life experiences. I have not encountered the same discrimination. It's not my right to tell him how to rate or not rate books.
I now know that certain themes are automatic one stars for him, but because those same themes don't necessarily bother me, I'll still read the books.
I know that if Ami complains there's too much sex in a book, it will barely be enough for me. ;)
And if Jewel tells me a story is too dark/angsty, it will most definitely be too dark for me.
Ele and I agree 90+ percent of the time, so I really trust her reviews.
Renee and I agree mostly, but not always, but I respect her reviews. We don't always come at the book from the same place, so it makes sense that our reviews will sometimes differ.
I agree with you in that I don't trust a book that has only five or four star ratings. I want to read a couple reviews with differing opinions too.
Eve wrote: "For me, cheating is a direct reflection of a person's moral fiber. It happens in real life, but when I encounter it in real life, I disapprove. Therefore, if it's something I dislike in friends (in..."Exactly how I feel.
Just to clear things up, I am not defending cheating. I am defending authors. We are all in agreement - cheating is bad. But while we are speaking about morality, those of you saying you are not an author, perhaps you should give it a try, since morally speaking, you should not judge someone without walking a mile in someone else's shoes. And before you all start screaming, I am not saying that you can't review without ever having written, I think if you tried it, you would certainly think harder before you rate and review. I don't think a lot of people realize that they should really consider MANY things before they rate and review. Authors spend months doing everything necessary to put together a book, and anyone can help malign that book with one click and two seconds.
To those saying that you explain in your review why you gave the low rating so it is ok, one thing has nothing to do with the other. Everyone sees the average rating when they view a book, but nobody reads every review, so they may never see yours. Fortunately, most people don't choose what to buy based just on the ratings (I will never look at the ratings again after this experience, and I always ignore all reviews that whine about irrelevant things), but some may take that into consideration. There are five stars for a reason. Many factors should be taken into consideration.
If you don't write, there are a lot of things you don't know. Writing takes A LOT of time.There is a lot of grunt work, including research, editing, and rewrites. Writers often take their characters with them everywhere. Sometimes a characters runs off in an author's head and does something that even the author wasn't expecting. Writers often get very attached to their characters, even the flawed ones. Writers know that if their characters don't have flaws, their stories will be unrealistic and dull. Published authors have unfathomable courage to share their stories and send their beloved characters out into the lions'den.
I have so much love and respect for authors. To cut them down multiple stars because a book contains cheating is disrespectful. Maybe the character needs to change and grow up a little. Maybe the MC who is being cheated on is with the wrong character and needs to learn that hard way. Maybe the cheater is going to fall hopelessly in love and never feel the need to step out again. By saying no cheating EVER, you are missing out on some amazing stories. By telling others what an awful book it is, you might make someone else miss out on an awesome story. (Just a reminder, I know cheating is bad).
You say that if you can't sympathize with a character, the book gets a low rating. How are you not sympathizing with the character who is being cheated on? We have established that cheating is bad. How is the other character not getting your sympathy?
I am not saying there are no books that deserve only one or two stars. I am just asking that you rate carefully. Think about everything. Do you have the right to give one star because one thing didn't agree with you? Yes, but just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean that you should. Remember that people have the right to cheat, but we've already established that it's not nice. Rating a book because the author failed to direct the plot exactly as you'd hoped is like cheating in that one has the right, but it's not nice.
Think of it this way: the character who cheated is fictional, but the author who worked so hard and bravely put his or her story out there is very real.
But while we are speaking about morality, those of you saying you are not an author, perhaps you should give it a try, since morally speaking, you should not judge someone without walking a mile in someone else's shoes.I consider writing to be a talent. One I don't possess. It's not something you just try without feeling the need to. And what does morality have to do with it? Is it immoral to give a bad review without being a writer? *is confused*
"To those saying that you explain in your review why you gave the low rating so it is ok, one thing has nothing to do with the other..."
Ok then, what is your suggestion? Since explaining WHY we gave a low rating is not enough, what should we do? Give 4 or 5 stars anyway? Even if we didn't like the book?
(I will never look at the ratings again after this experience,...
Oh, believe me, I 've learnt this lesson the hard way. I 've spent a shitload of money on books that were rated too high, but turned out to be crap.
Again, it is not reviewers against authors here. We love authors too. You are defensive as if we were trying to ruin their careers. I think Dani explained it perfectly and I tried too, that we do not rate low if things don't go as we would like them to. We even gave examples of books we 've reviewed. But when there is no resolution or redemption or there are other factors, like bad editing e.t.c, well....I don't feel it's right to give a high rating.
Michelle, I appreciate your loyal defense of authors. It's admirable that you know how much of their blood, sweat, and tears go into their stories. I don't know what it's like to do that, won't pretend otherwise. I have neither the talent nor the patience to write. But I am close to the experience without being an actual author. I beta read and edit for a very close friend who IS an author. I've done so for years. I've gone through the blood, sweat, and tears with her. I've gone through the sudden shifts in plot because her MC takes her somewhere else. I've gone through months of edits when the book was already done, only to redo huge sections of it because something didn't seem right. I've gone through release days while she held her breath. And I've gone through good and bad reviews with her too. So I GET it. But bottom line - when you put yourself out there, brave as it is, you invite feedback. Good, bad, amazing, and awful. That's business. Period. People purchase a product, and they can say whatever they want about it. This whole cheating thing? It's just one aspect of a much larger scope I think. But I'm pretty sure myself and everyone here has been saying that they'll rate a book on their overall reading experience. Not one single thing. I said in my original post "It has to be written extremely well for me to be ok with it. VERY few authors can pull this off for me." But it has been pulled off. I can name some examples, but I don't think that's the point.
I always rate fairly and on my overall reading experience. I don't inflate reviews because the author worked hard. If that were the case - just rate everything out there with 5 stars and call it a day! Reviews are out there so that other readers can see if they would enjoy this book or not. Does it have triggers I wouldn't care for? Is it too low on steam for my taste? This one doesn't have an HEA - nope, not for me. That's what I'm looking for when I read reviews, so that's why I look at both low- and high-stars. Honestly, sometimes it's a low-star that SELLS a book for me. One man's trash is another's treasure and all that.....
A post I've loved for a while. I hope you take the time to read it...
Something in the Water?
The problem with that is even the really bad writer's are authors, the bigoted/racist/homophobic/.... they're all authors who believe their message. Should we respect and high rate hatred? Those authors have spent the same time invested in their work, believe their message. The difference is reader perception. To some people cheating is such an issue.Reviews are not for authors they're for readers.
None of the gdrd people I speak to rely solely on ratings.
Unless you walk a mile in my shoes you don't know my experience or how I approach things. We can only agree to be different.
I think one also has to consider that reviews aren't the end all. Many people dont look at the reviews to see if it is a good book or not. Me, I look through reviews to see what things the book contains, not to see what someone else thinks about it because I like to make the descision of whether it is a good / bad book for myself. I am an author. Certainly not a powerful one, or a well known one. But I do write. I know how difficult it is when people don't like a book. One of the stories I wrote has many two star ratings because one of the characters is a lying ass, even if he had reasons to lie. I love him dearly, because he is mine, I created him. And yes, I felt very sad that he got so much hate. But some people also gave the story 5 stars. It depends on the reviewer. If they like it or don't like it, they have the right to express that.
People rate it based on their enjoyment of the book, or for any other reason, but rarely are they based on the effort the author takes. If that were the case, almost every story deserves 5 stars, because which author has not put in months of effort and love and time?
My point is, no one is trying to malign anyone here. They are just saying if THEY liked the book or not, that's all.
Eleftheria wrote: "I've spent a shitload of money on books that were rated too high, but turned out to be crap."Amen! This is why I don't want all 4 and 5 stars. I want to know what works well for some people about a book and what DIDN'T. That way I can know if this book will work for ME. Seeing all 5 stars isn't gonna tell me that. Then I'll just waste my own hard-earned money and be very pissed off!
I know I've had friends read books because of one of my negative reviews, and I've done the same. Just because a friend doesn't like something doesn't mean I won't, and vice versa.I think my problem with cheating centers around dishonesty. If people are engaged in an open relationship, or a poly relationship, or work in the sex industry it's very different for me than cheating on a partner. To me it's all about the communication, and the honesty. I dislike cheating when it's a breach of trust because to me it's a breach of loyalty, and I'm nothing if not loyal. I know I have friends it bothers, and I write my reviews for myself, and for my friends. Reviews are subjective by their very nature, and are about the story, and my reaction to it. Nothing more, and nothing less.
You know what, I'm okay with being "not nice" to an author if it means that I get to be honest and that other readers can trust my reviews not to inflate ratings. Even if an author devotes a decade's worth of sweat, equity and tears to creating what I think is a crappy piece of non-enjoyable work, I'm going to review it honestly and hopefully warn other readers away from it. I don't owe the author anything, and consider saving readers' time far more worthwhile than coddling an author's sensibilities or sales.
I hope my friends and fellow readers will also do me this service and warn me not to throw away my time and money on books I won't enjoy. That's what reviewing is about, not supporting authors.
MLE wrote: "I know I've had friends read books because of one of my negative reviews, and I've done the same. Just because a friend doesn't like something doesn't mean I won't, and vice versa.I think my prob..."
Absoutely, MLE. Open relationships or anything that means the other person(s) knows and accepts/likes it, is not cheating imo.
Eleftheria wrote: "MLE wrote: "I know I've had friends read books because of one of my negative reviews, and I've done the same. Just because a friend doesn't like something doesn't mean I won't, and vice versa.I t..."
Yes.
I think another problem I have with cheating in fiction is when the cheater refuses to take responsibility for their actions, and blames the person that they are with. You chose to be with that person, and, instead of taking responsibility and being honest with them about your feelings, you chose to lie to them, and cheat. Sorry, no matter what the other person did that is your choice, and your responsibility. I think when cheating "works" for me it is when the character owns their actions not when they spend their time passing the buck.
I love to read and I read a lot. I read sometimes to escape but mostly I like to have realism in my books. I'm not one of those people that want all fluff and HEAs all the time in my romance. I find that those types of books bore me to tears and I tend to avoid the authors that primarily write those types of books. To me, cheating can make a story super interesting if it's a well written book with interesting characters. Maybe the protagonists have an open relationship, like in the book I just finished the other day. I don't typically like books about open relationships or menages because I have mostly found them to not be all that well written or characterized, maybe because that author can't really imagine how it would be to be in that situation. I'm not sure why. This book, however, was stunning and it was because of how the author dealt with the subject matter.
This whole conversation about rating books lower because of subjective reasons has been had many a time. There's always the people that think that because the author worked so hard on the book that readers shouldn't give them low ratings for any reason or for what THEY think are "wrong" reasons. I'm sorry but if you put anything into the public eye, no matter how well written or well done, it will get judged. Some people will judge it harshly, some will love it and some will have no opinion whatsoever. That's the nature of business. I'm judged as soon as I walk out of my house and so is everyone else, and I wouldn't expect it to be any different.
Art is subjective. I can look at a painting or watch a movie or a dance or read a book and think it was beautiful and the next person can think it was shit. We all have different experiences and opinions that we bring to our enjoyment of art in any form. I can read a book and give a lower rating because of poor grammar or editing (I HATE this) or what I think is awful characterization or because there was too much on page kid time (also hate this) or because one character annoyed the crap out of me or because there was racism or homophobia or plagiarism or the author tried too hard to be funny or didn't try at all or too much sex or not enough sex or too many Burberry pea coats and buttery suede boots or.... etc., etc. You get the point. That's my prerogative. I mean, the other day I was really pissed off because there was crappily done surprise vampires in a book and I said so in my review in very strong words. But someone might read my review and say, "But I love surprise vampires!" and read it anyway.
I'd much rather read a book with multiple low ratings that piqued my interest than one with a ton of high ratings and gushing reviews. If I come across any book with all high ratings/gushing reviews, I assume someone has been gaming the system or that it's going to be something I don't like or both. I find this to be particularly true in the romance genre. I don't know if it's as prevalent in other genres to have fans band together to give all 5 stars to a particular book because an author asked you to (either directly or indirectly) like it is in the romance genre. Either way, all high ratings in romance = me moving on to something else, and I know I'm not the only one who thinks so.
So yeah, high ratings can also "hurt" an author's pocket, just like low ratings can make people read a book. Subjective ratings and reviews are always going to be given in this business, no matter how hard the author did or didn't work on the book. I'm sure the author of Mein Kampf worked hard on his book and yet people still give that one low ratings because of content.
