Some Game of Thrones musings
My wonderful chiropractor—who really should be named Merlin—has returned, which means that I am no longer being held hostage by a recalcitrant back and can contact the real world once again. (Does Facebook qualify as the “real world,” you think?) To celebrate my liberation, I am posting EW’s delightfully snarky recaps by James Hibberd for the last two episodes of Game of Thrones.
This season is about as dark as the bottom of a mine shaft, making the tragic endings of some of my books seem like a day at the circus. I had an unsettling thought about the Game of Thrones series the other day. We all have hopes and expectations as to how we would like it to end. But it occurred to me that the last man standing could be Littlefinger. Do you guys think GRRM would do that to us?
I do have some non-negotiable demands, which mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, of course. But I want Roose Bolton and his psycho son to die, preferably in the most painful way possible. I want Sansa to get revenge for the destruction of her family and if she wants to include the HBO writers on her hit list, that is okay with me; not even Master Martin married her off to Ramsay, who is even worse than Joffrey, as horrifying as that is to contemplate. I want Daenerys to thrive; her anti-slavery passion is probably not in her best interest, but it is admirable and that is not a word we often get to use in Westeros, is it? I want her dragons to thrive, too; maybe they could be taught to eat the more obnoxious characters instead of the children of shepherds? I want Jon Snow to discover that the world will not end if he repudiates an oath he never wanted to make in the first place. And I want Tyrion to have whatever his heart desires; he’s earned it.
Now here are the links, as promised.
http://www.ew.com/recap/game-of-thron...
http://www.ew.com/recap/game-of-thron...
This season is about as dark as the bottom of a mine shaft, making the tragic endings of some of my books seem like a day at the circus. I had an unsettling thought about the Game of Thrones series the other day. We all have hopes and expectations as to how we would like it to end. But it occurred to me that the last man standing could be Littlefinger. Do you guys think GRRM would do that to us?
I do have some non-negotiable demands, which mean absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things, of course. But I want Roose Bolton and his psycho son to die, preferably in the most painful way possible. I want Sansa to get revenge for the destruction of her family and if she wants to include the HBO writers on her hit list, that is okay with me; not even Master Martin married her off to Ramsay, who is even worse than Joffrey, as horrifying as that is to contemplate. I want Daenerys to thrive; her anti-slavery passion is probably not in her best interest, but it is admirable and that is not a word we often get to use in Westeros, is it? I want her dragons to thrive, too; maybe they could be taught to eat the more obnoxious characters instead of the children of shepherds? I want Jon Snow to discover that the world will not end if he repudiates an oath he never wanted to make in the first place. And I want Tyrion to have whatever his heart desires; he’s earned it.
Now here are the links, as promised.
http://www.ew.com/recap/game-of-thron...
http://www.ew.com/recap/game-of-thron...
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Iset
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May 20, 2015 10:35AM
I didn't mind the change in Sansa plot initially - of course it is not as the books, but it had its own sort of intigue - I reconciled myself to it, thinking that this would be an interesting step on the character's arc, having grown in wisdom and confidence so much and - as Littlefinger points out - having learned the art of dissembling from the best of them. So I really thought, and was looking forwards, to seeing Sansa own this new thread of strategy (Littlefinger says she already has Ramsey wrapped around her finger, and I really thought she could do it, gain the upper hand, and this would be the part of Sansa's arc where she begins to rise up in her own right)... but then people told me what happened in the most recent episode. I have not seen it yet, but I'm dismayed. It seems so pointless. It doesn't make sense given Sansa's arc, and doesn't seem to add to the plot. That's the part that has me worried about watching the latest episode. I'm feeling dubious, truly dubious.
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I no longer watch the series. Even before last week's pointless Sansa storyline, I realized that for me, Game of Thrones, the HBO series, had jumped the shark. Leaves more time for reading.
I am not one of the book purists that nothing can change but honestly I don't enjoy how it has changed...
I love the books too much to watch the series but even I heard of the outrage and honestly I don't understand what is the problem why is rape worst than say Cersei ordering Jamie to knock Bran down from the wall etc. If the screenwriters decided to marry Sansa to the psychopath then you could only expect the worst. If you read the books you know what sorts of things he does. His letter to Jon Snow still sends chills down mine spine and to me that's great writing. It would be out of Ramsey's character if he let some woman manipulate him. He has no feelings.
Adriana wrote: "I love the books too much to watch the series but even I heard of the outrage and honestly I don't understand what is the problem why is rape worst than say Cersei ordering Jamie to knock Bran down..."I have read the books. All of them. But in the show the character is slightly different. The scene the previous week in which Miranda gives him a hard time about Sansa implied that he considered it a special case - some people have their own twisted logic, and will be perfectly ingratiating to their spouse whilst being abominal to everybody else - and Roose has made it abundantly clear that they need Sansa. In addition, conversations between Sansa and Littlefinger in previous episodes had set up that she knows how to play her cards closer now, she knows how to be manipulative (she's manipulative with Littlefinger and he knows it, but he lets her do it), and it seemed plausible that she might've played a part all the while biding her time for - as Sharon hopes - some good old revenge. Instead she's put through the wringer, again, which seems pointless as Sansa has already played the role of victim, survived, grown, and moved on as a stronger, smarter character - or so it seemed. No, I didn't expect it to "go well". But I expected Sansa to be serving up some ice cold vengeance after carefully playing her part and waiting for the right moment. As I said, I've read all the books, I know what happens, I know the characters, and I know what changes the show has made. That doesn't change my reaction.
I agree there is probable no reason for that plot-line for Sansa, I am only baffled how put off some people are about the rape because worse things have happened in the story already and it didn't create such an outrage. Still it's good for this great story to become so popular and controversial. It made people interested in middle ages.
Actually, Ramsay's wedding night scene in the novel was even worse than the one on HBO, although the victim there was not Sansa. It made very unpleasant reading. I hated all of Theon's torture scenes, in both the books and the series.
Yes, I agree with Sharon - in the books it was much worse. However the unlucky lady was not Sansa. What seems to have prompted to outrage of book readers, at least, on this, is that fact that Sansa as a character has already been through a dire ordeal and come out the other side - it seems pointless to put her through such fresh horrors. When they made Sansa take the role in the show and there was all this talk of changing things from the books what I, along with other book-readers, assumed was that Sansa's rise (to adulthood, to possible power, to possible revenge), that had been intended for Books 6 and 7, was actually being brought forwards and sort of fudged together in this whole marry-Ramsay-for-the-North thing. In the book what happens is terrible - but it wasn't Sansa - and I think many people are angry because there was no need to put Sansa through it, especially when her character is growing in strength as a player of the game. It's therefore being seen as gratuitous and unnecessary - and thus in poor taste.
I, too, have wondered if Littlefinger might be the last one standing at the end...his machinations interest and intrigue me more and more with each re-read, and with each episode.
Your view makes sense, Iset, but I do understand why they felt the need to put Sansa in the place of the minor character who did not even appear in the series. The downside of this, of course, is that Sansa's abuse resonated much more strongly with viewers, perhaps more than they expected. A US Senator tweeted that this was enough for her and she is officially an ex-Game of Thrones fan after that episode. As for me, I would have dumped the Ramsay marriage storyline altogether. Of course I would have killed the SOB off long ago! Maybe as a snack for one of Danni's dragons?
I still haven't watched the episode. I'm reluctant in case I loathe it... and in case I don't loathe it too! The last time something like this happened when the tone of the Cersei/Jaime scene was changed there was uproar, but whilst I was annoyed at the change in tone from the books I still loved the show. This time if I still like the show I can imagine the flak I'll get! Several people whose writings about the show I enjoyed and followed have already said they're completely out after this.
I read about the rape scene before I watched it and I don't understand the fuss. I agree with Adriana: far worse things have taken place. At least there was no gratuitous nudity. The director didn't show Ramsay at all, lingering on Sansa's face but mainly on Theon's reaction which was genius. After everything Ramsay has put him through he, more than anyone, understands Sansa's torment.As for the rest... Where on earth is Bran? Rickon has disappeared entirely. And so it is the Stark girls who take centre stage. Is there anyone left who can put a stop to Cersei's machinations? I'm guessing (hoping) for a bloody end to Roose and Ramsay with Sansa left as Queen (Queen Regent) of the North.
They announced before the season began, Denise, that Bran and his storyline would be absent this season. They have too many storylines, of course, and too many characters, so no one gets enough screen time. But that is the fault of GRRM.. :-)
Ah, I missed that announcement. What a pity; I thought the 'spiritual' storyline made a nice contrast to the grim realism. But I understand it must be difficult to weave so many threads together. Never mind. Next series perhaps...
Denise wrote: "Ah, I missed that announcement. What a pity; I thought the 'spiritual' storyline made a nice contrast to the grim realism. But I understand it must be difficult to weave so many threads together. N..."Denise I love Bran's story line, it's one of my favorites. I always felt that it could never be captured on screen properly. As you say it did add a nice contrast to the grimness. Many of the "gritty" fantasy books that the market started churning out loose the depth in their eagerness to "outgritt" each other.
It fascinates me the way we all react so differently to the various story lines and characters. Bran's mystical story line just does resonate with me. I happen to really like Danni and her dragons, but I've friends tell me they wouldn't care if she were eaten by one of those dragons. We can agree on a few matters, though. I do not know anyone who did not despise Joffrey and loathe Ramsay. Sansa is more controversial. But I've yet to hear from anyone who does not like my favorite character--in both the books and the HBO series--Tyrion, now played by the brilliant Peter Drinklage. Anyone else have other favorites?
Sharon wrote: "It fascinates me the way we all react so differently to the various story lines and characters. Bran's mystical story line just does resonate with me. I happen to really like Danni and her drago..."I've gone the other way, Sharon. The more beloved and powerful Dany becomes, the more I dislike her. A character's got to have flaws, struggles. I've gone from Dany being one of my favourite characters to really being rather dubious about her right now.
Conversely I find that the more time we spend with Stannis, the more I'm warming to him. I started out not disliking him but not liking him either. Over time he's earned my grudging respect however, and that respect, grudgingly given, has evolved into respect freely given.
This will be controversial wilth many fans I know, but I dislike fan-favourite Arya too. Sure, she's alright in the beginning. I empathise with her desire to be more than a "lady" and to fight, and of course I feel sorry for her plight. But I feel like her character is headed down a dark road and in the end it's not going to bring her any peace or happiness - no matter how awesome an assassin she might become. I foresee a great deal of strife in her future, and a great deal of strife and unhappiness caused by her too. It wouldn't surprise me if she ends up on opposing sides to one or several of her family, in future.
Meanwhile, I like Sansa whilst most fans seem to dislike her! I know those fans despise her for being naive and simpering... and I don't like that behaviour either... but I understand it. It's easy to judge, as an experienced, confident adult. I'm not sure I was ever as ditzy as Sansa, but yes, to my shame I made terribly naive assumptions about human nature and relationships when I was the age she seems to be in the first book. I just didn't understand the reasoning or motivations of others, which made no sense to me (didn't realise how confused and making it up they themselves were!), but I don't blame myself now, and I sure don't blame Sansa either. She has watched, and thought, and observed, and figured things out. She's grown into more than what she was and I can totally see her as a master manipulator and the Wardeness of the North and a great lady, yes. And I really like that. She goes through this huge character arc and grows into something stronger, and I can just feel that her time is coming.
Naturally I adore Tyrion. Jaime grew on me too though.
Iset I completely understand. Certain characters have waxed and waned with me too. I couldn't bear Sansa's romantic, idealised view of Knights on white horses. I hope she re-dyes her hair because I loved the way we were going with darker, grittier Sansa. And I'm with you with Danaerys too, although I think in part my frustrations with the character are more to do with the stagnating of her part of the story. Arya is suffering for the same reason.
My favourite character from the start has been Tyrion and that remains constant. Brienne is high up on the list too. And Varys. Where has Varys gone? Joffrey and Ramsay are utterly vile but there's something quietly magnificent about Cersei's villainy.
Sharon, Tyrion is actually much disliked by a segment of the fandom. Perhaps you haven't been much into the fandom? Post-ASOS he became less popular, because he took a turn for the worse and from then onwards in hindsight his actions from the first book on have been more questioned. He's done some terrible things from the first book on. For many, his rape of the whore in Selhorys was the last straw and killed any sympathies for him. In the show, they made it be a whore who offers sex to him for free, since he's so witty, and he refuses because . . . "he can't." They also have omitted the rape of his first wife, Tysha, who was mentioned only once and without including Tyrion's part in it. It's quite telling how the showrunners are willing to leave out rapes and questionable actions committed by male main characters, but invent a rape for a main female character. How would you and other Tyrion fans have reacted if they had been faithful to the book and depicted Tyrion raping the whore at that brothel where Jorah kidnapped him from? The showrunners did know that'd hurt the Imp's popularity and shied away from it, which in my opinion was cowardly. Due to the showrunners, he's been whitewashed too much, from being "the grayest of the gray" as the author described him, he was made by the showrunners into Saint Tyrion Dinklage, Patron Saint of Cripples, Bastards, Broken Things and Whores.The real issue with Sansa's rape isn't that it happened, it's the contrived and nonsensical plotline the showrunners had to pull out of thin air to shoehorn her into Jeyne Poole's arc. Jeyne's arc in the books makes sense, it's part of a larger narrative where she's just ONE piece: there's the Northern lords' conspiracy, there's Theon's redemption, there's the Boltons' shaky hold on the North, there's Stannis coming... Yet in this show, the showrunners have dropped everything and focused on having Sansa marry Ramsay, for what? Sansa is a Stark, she doesn't need the Boltons to regain her home, she could simply go to Stannis and rally the North around her to regain her home. Littlefinger's plan, if that can be called a plan, makes no sense at all and he looks like a complete fool because he doesn't know how the Boltons really are (the producers confirmed it), so he left his two biggest assets in the hands of a rival lord (Lord Royce is with Sweetrobin) and Sansa with the Boltons. How will he now have the Vale army on the move? He doesn't have any authority save that which comes from Sweetrobin, which he no longer has. And after this rape, what makes him think Sansa will even want to see him?
The worst part is that the showrunners were planning to make Sansa into Jeyne since Season 2, as they admitted in one interview, and in that season, Sansa was still 13 (she is 15 in the show, 3 years older than in the books) and in the same season she was saved from being gang-raped by the mob by the Hound, another scene the showrunners invented (in the books, it's Lollys Stokeworth). They said it's because they "loved" that storyline and they didn't want to waste such a good actress like Sophie Turner by casting someone else to play Jeyne, so they torpedoed Sansa's arc to fit her into this incredibly contrived plot. Given that they've stripped the Northern storyline to simply Sansa marrying Ramsay, one is left to wonder what exactly they "loved" about this plot.
And this isn't the first time they use rape for shock, going against the books. First was Daenerys' wedding night, when she was raped by Drogo, which didn't happen in the books (she is raped later, though), they did it with Jaime/Cersei in Season 4, when they had Jaime rape Cersei at the sept beside Joff's corpse . . . and now this. Three strikes and you're out.
And that's not to mention other very questionable decisions related to depictions of sexual violence like these:
1. The introduction of Ros the prostitute, who's abused and killed by Joff. Not in the books.
2. The rape of Gendry by Melisandre. Yes, it was rape, because Gendry was tied to the bed and Melly forced herself on him. Not in the books.
3. The graphic rape of Craster's wife as "background decoration" during the Night Watch's mutiny. In the books, it's mentioned, but not described.
4. The near-rape of Meera Reed at Craster's Keep. Not in the books.
5. The aging-up of Tommen so he could consummate his marriage to Margaery. He's apparently 13 in the show (he's 9 in the books), and not able to rule, but just old enough to go at it 4 times in a night, as Margaery kindly informs us . . .
6. Make the High Septon be a sexual pervert who delights in hiring 7 whores to play each of the Seven, and then have him walk naked. Oh, and focus the camera on one of the whore's crotch for a good while, too.
7. Make Loras the very model of a gay caricature that's managed to offend both religious people and the gay community. In the books, Loras is a great knight who happens to be gay, in the show, he's a great gay that happens to be a knight.
And so on, and so forth... You can see now why the criticism isn't unwarranted, and it's not "just because it's Sansa." The show has been pushing the fandom's boundaries for too long, and understandably the fandom exploded. There are limits as to what constitutes a gritty but well-written storyline and what constitutes a bleak and poorly-written storyline that uses sexual violence as a plot device regardless of the narrative coherence.
Sorry for the rant! :D
Sidenote: Am I the only one irritated with bookDany's naivety regarding relationships? She marries Drogo whilst still a child, and convinces herself that they had some sort of epic love together when she doesn't even know what real love is. Then Daario... for some reason... but she doesn't seem in love with him either, it feels like she keeps talking herself into it.
Marquise words are an echo of my own opinion. I found the whole Sansa marrying Ramsay for revenge nonsensical-What revenge? This is the family that murdered her own family, so where is Sansa supposed to gain this revenge? Even the writer and director came across as silly 'Sansa made her decision to marry Ramsay so now she has to deal with it.' There is a statement from a guy who has done absolutely no research into rape and how it affects a woman or man for that matter. It is lazy writing and I am tired of 'shock and awe' tactics to boost ratings.If they needed some fillers then why not expand Mance Rayders storyline? Through his storyline we could've been shown an insight into the Others and Wights...but instead we get awful scenes of Crasters keep, Theon/Ramsay torture scenes. Jaime/Cersei(was it rape or not controversy) sex over the corpse of their dead son(even tho I loathed Joffrey)the scene in both book and show is tasteless and unnecessary. The plethora of naked prostitutes in every single season if not every episode is becoming eye rolling.
As for Dany her Arc in both book and show is simply that she has been treading water for five books/seasons as we wait and wait for her to invade Westeros....She has a fling with Daario ding a ling who she seems to have no real feelings for. She beheads one of the ex-slaves for not obeying her new law of the land...and then burns another man alive without trial for the death of Selmy...Is this meant to show that she will become a female version of her father? Then she apologies to Hizzy(forget his name)and is now going to marry him without knowing if he is in charge of the Harpies?....It seems she can't make a sensible decision without Jorah Mormont.
When it comes to Tyrion I am very unhappy with the book turn around in Dance and for the first time I was truly bored with Tyrion's self pitying, brutal, selfish personality....It is the opposite of Jaime's redemptive Arc...And I am hoping that Tyrion will pull himself together and return to the character most of us have come to love and admire. They did soften his storyline in the show probably so as not to antagonise the audience and I actually prefer show Tyrion to Dance of Dragons Tyrion.
It also would have been an awesome storyline IF the writers had Sansa leave Littlefinger and make her way to the Wall to meet up with Stannis and join him in the fight to regain her home...That would have made sense...but no they have turned her into a victim again which I believe will be used to enhance Theon's Arc....Another good move would have been to include Manderley instead they seem to have given this role to Littlefinger of all people. Littlefinger!
If Littlefinger is going to become the real winner then I will consider my time reading the books and watching the tv show to be a total waste of time. But what gives me hope is the curse of Harrenhal and the fact that LF is now Lord of Harrenhal....I believe it will come to pass as it has been written and mentioned too many times for it not to mean anything.
So many things could have improved the show.
1:More focus on Mance Rayder/Wildlings/Others
2: More Direwolf action especially Arya/Nymeria
3:More focus on Jon and his warging abilities and his prophetic dreams.
4:A power play between Kevan and Cersei(Thank God for Diana Rigg as Lady Olenna!)
5:A lot more focus on Doran Martell and less Sand snakes--Drop the whole Jaime/Bronn heads to Dorne(another senseless story change)
6:Introducing the Manderleys.
7:Bringing back Blackfish/Edmure/Freys/Jaime
8:Less on Theon/Ramsay sadism(truly horrific).
9:More on Stannis and the battle for Winterfell(my own theory is that the battle will be inconclusive because Winds may be published in 2016 & it wont spoil the book fandom who will find out first what happens). We may not know who wins this battle until season 6-it will be left with a cliff hanger.
10: Dany taking charge of her dragons and finally make plans to invade Westeros while using her own intelligence to take decisive action and DO something!
So there are my ten points which would have made a better Game of Thrones for the viewers. IMHO...sorry for the rather long post....
@ Rebecca,Indeed! All the alternate points you mention are perfectly doable, and there are many other alternatives that the fans are positing too. So D&D's excuse that the Vale plot wouldn't do for good storytelling on the screen is lame beyond belief. How could it be unfilmable if they themselves proved it actually is? They just rushed through it at light speed in Season 4, and now we know why.
The Northern storyline is the best in ADWD and such a complex net of intrigues that it's just infuriating that they reduced it to what it is in the show. You mention they could've done less Ramsay/Theon too, and it's so spot-on. In fact, the very manner they handled this plotline exemplifies how poorly they understood what the point was. Martin never shows Theon's torture, never, he shows the psychological effects of that torture and how broken Theon is. The narrative is focused on Theon recovering some semblance of his old self and redeeming himself by saving Jeyne, a nobody whose life is of no worth to anyone, and having a part in furthering the Grand Northern Conspiracy of the Stark loyalists by stealing "Arya" from them, without whom the Boltons are as safe as a piece of mutton in front of Ghost . . . But see the nonsense they did in the show! It harms Theon's arc, too, because . . . What redemption is there for saving Sansa? He knows her, he said that Ned was "his true father" and laments not dying with Robb at the Red Wedding, so he has plenty of motivation to save her, motivation he didn't have to save Jeyne. Anyone would save Sansa, she's too valuable, but Jeyne wasn't worth a groat. And in that lies the true value of Theon's rescue, it's more risky, it's more heroic and selfless.
To think that Theon is Benioff and Weiss' favourite character!
I just don't understand why they chose to make so many unnecessary changes for instance the lame plot to send Jaime and Bronn to Dorne in order to kidnap Myrcella. I hate to tell them but Dorne is full of Dornish soldiers who might just be able to recognise Jaime Lannister despite him wearing a glove over his golden hand. The entire plot is ludicrous! And it is making Jaime look like a joke!It makes better sense to send Jaime(with Bronn) to the riverlands to deal with the Freys/Blackfish/Edmure where Jaime has to rely more on his wits and ability to negotiate and play politics with the best of them. So Dan and Dave chose this foolish Dornish plot 'my name is Obara Sand and I'm the daughter of Oberyn Martell' and she is saying this to the Dornish guards who KNOW who she is, for goodness sake!
A Song of Ice and Fire is one of the most intricate, complex and character driven books I have read; he has created an entire world from his own imagination and yet Dan and Dave who say they love the books are stuffing it up.
There is too much on Theon and Ramsay-I find it sickening and I really do close my eyes-I just can't stand it.
Loras Tyrell has become almost a cartoon character who simply jumps from one bed to another....a gay gigolo, what a pity not to expand his role...I do like the fact that they fleshed out Margaery's role as Natalie Dormer is an excellent actress who can stand with Lena Heady and Diana Rigg. I am enjoying the scenes of Kings Landing despite the lazy script writing of Loras guilt because he has a birth mark? And this evidence comes from his squire who actually probably prepared baths and help dress him...and yet Loras leaps at him...it is a dumb-down script for an intelligence audience.
The greatest misstep though is ignoring the Great Northern Conspiracy and replacing it with Littlefinger/Sansa/Ramsay marriage plot which is totally nonsensical as Sansa gains absolutely nothing by marrying a Bolton(who are hated)knowing full well she would have to bed this psychopath...So instead of having an empowered Sansa we are yet again left with victim Sansa in need of saving by....someone...probably Theon or Brienne.
I haven't seen today's episode but I have a feeling I will be disappointed with the battle for Winterfell as it has taken Stannis far too long for him to leave the Wall...I could go on but I just hate the fact that they have dumb downed this season....I hope that season 6 will be better....fingers crossed...
I am glad I quit watching the show after the first season. It felt too cartoonish and a let down compared to the books. I also couldn't stomach who they picked to play Jon Snow and Cersei. Lena Heidy looks too intelligent, her beauty is too pure almost ethereal to look like Cersei who is as ethereal as Paris Hilton's duck lips. When I look at Lena Heidy I don't get a sense of scheming manipulative slut. The guy who plays Jon Snow is a good actor but he does not look like Jon Snow. He would fit better in Littlefinger's brothel. Despite all that it's good that the HBO rendition is so popular. Some like the show even more than the books (which I'll never understand) and some don't even care to read the books and only worship the TV show. Maybe it will drive the producers towards better scripts set in historical or quasi historical setting.
Since I spoke of casting and this is completely unrelated to this thread but related to Sharon Penman's recreation of Llywelyn ap Gruffudd. To me he looks like the actor Ioan Gruffudd, especially when Ioan looks serious and sad :)
@ Rebecca,Agree with you on everything! If you've not watched last night's episode, don't even bother. The Winterfell and Dorne storylines are beyond salvaging. They've just completed the destruction of Sansa's characterisation with this episode, and though not going to spoil it for you, I can guess you'll surely not be pleased at the way they handled the Sam & Gilly love story in this episode. The only good part was the King's Landing part and just because of the High Sparrow, again not thanks to the writing but to the actor.
Ah, Dorne, how we hate thee. . . The Dornish plot is the only thing there's universal agreement about from both show and books fans in that it's derided by both camps. The Sand Snakes are so incredibly ludicrous and comical that they've earned a collection of nicknames: Sand Brats, Sand Fakes, Bland Snakes, Power Puff Snakes, Power Rangers Snakes . . . In the books, they're not well fleshed our, but, by the old gods, must the show make what's bad in the books even worse? In this episode it was the usual nonsense, plus the expected nudity. What we just needed: Sand Snake nude.
@ Adriana,
Wise decision, very wise indeed. I wish I'd stopped then too. I recall I complained a lot about Season 1, but in hindsight that one is a bloody masterpiece by comparison! No wonder it's to date the best, and it's also no coincidence that the show has its best scenes the closer it sticks to the books, and it's now that it's deviating when the plotlines become so bad.
Sharon wrote: "I hated all of Theon's torture scenes, in both the books and the series. ..."Agreed. They just seem pointless and gratuitous. Disappointing to see Ramsay is a more prominent character in the TV series than in the books. Gives you an idea of the kind of show and audience the TV producers have in mind ("if it bleeds, it leads').
I assume the reason Sansa was substituted for Jeyne Poole is the need to winnow down the number of characters from the books. Presumably, much of the re-writing involves consolidating characters and scenes from the novels into fewer characters and scenes in the TV episodes.
Rob wrote: "Sharon wrote: "I hated all of Theon's torture scenes, in both the books and the series. ..."Agreed. They just seem pointless and gratuitous. Disappointing to see Ramsay is a more prominent charac..."
I wish it'd have been that, but no. The producers themselves explained clearly that they shoehorned Sansa in Jeyne's role because they "loved" that plot, and didn't want to cast anyone else, so they took Sansa out of her own story arc, where she's actually learning politics and relatively safe, to get her into an environment of abuse, victimisation and rape that's not hers. And they planned this since Season 2, too. Jeyne Poole was actually cast for the role, she's in the show's pilot, but they cut her off for no reason at all. And now it's the storyline that suffered for that, the butterfly effect of a poor decision early on.
Nicole wrote: " If the screenwriters decided to marry Sansa to the psychopath then you could only expect the worst. "Well that's the point. Why did they do that?! The storyline made zero sense from the beginning. It is full of plot holes and OOC behavior from Sansa, Littlefinger and Roose Bolton, and they had to ignore all logic and made everyone act stupid to make it happen. Why? Because they wanted Sansa raped by Joffrey 2.0. Because they wanted cheap shock, and because they see no value in her character unless she's being a victim of abuse, and probably because they think that it doesn't matter because they can just later come back to her real story from the books - as if being raped and abused and married into the family of your family's murderers is just a little filler story to pass the time. They must think that rape is for a woman like breaking a nail. And they don't even notice how lazy, repetitive and trashy their writing is. It's deja vu, Sansa's constant victimization arc was already done, she is now in the books in the phase where she is learning to be a real political player and coming into her strength. They set that up (in a really ham-fisted way, costume change and sassy attitude and all - it's all a lot subtler in the books) last season - only to completely throw it away this season. They can't even be consistent in their own show storyline, let alone be faithful to the books.
Adriana wrote: "I agree there is probable no reason for that plot-line for Sansa, I am only baffled how put off some people are about the rape because worse things have happened in the story already and it didn't ..."This is not about "bad things happening on screen". This is about bad, cheap, lazy storytelling that is also deeply sexist and offensive in its use of rape as plot device. If you don't understand why people are bothered, I am posting something I wrote on another blog recently:
it bothers us because it’s a part of an idiotic, nonsensical storyline, which broke all rules of logic and had characters acting completely irrationally, just to put Sansa in the position to be raped by Ramsay.
It bothers us because it’s done entirely for shock value and has no merit in terms of storytelling or character.
it bothers us because it’s terrible, lazy and repetitive storytelling. Oh, Sophie Turner does suffering so well – so let’s just do a retread of Sansa’s King’s Landing storyline, only make it worse!
It bothers us because they have decided that all female characters are interchangeable, and that a storyline of a main female character, a character arc that makes sense, in which she goes through a terrible experience of being an abused prisoner and hostage, escapes and starts finding power and growing into a political player, a story in which the issue of sexual agency is crucial, was completely thrown away, and her character development derailed, so they could turn her into a victim again and pointlessly give us some more torture porn with the actress they like to see in torture porn scenes.
It bothers us because they expect us to believe that a girl who finally escaped a terrible experience of a helpless hostage abused by a psychopath and forced into a marriage into the family of her family’s murderers, after having finally gained some agency, would throw away all her safety, agency and a position of relative power, and willingly marry into another family of her family’s murderers and put herself at their mercy, after an unconvincing two minute persuasion/manipulation by a man she doesn’t even trust (that was established last season, or did they forget what they wrote last season already?).
It bothers us because the entire plot, apart from being nonsensical, is based on the offensive idea that the value of every woman who does not fight with weapons is only in her body, and that the only way she could get anywhere is through sex. So, somehow we’re to think that Sansa really believed her best chance of revenge against the Boltons was to marry Ramsay Bolton. Whatever.
It bothers us because they decided that the arc and development of a main female character is unimportant compared to an arc of two supporting male characters (and they aren’t even doing that right).
It bothers us because they genuinely seem to think that Sansa being raped and abused by Ramsay is just this cool little filler story that they can throw Sansa in until they got to her real story, because “she only has a few chapters in A Feast for Crows”. Because being raped is a minor thing just like breaking a nail, surely it doesn’t affect people!
It bothers us because they seem to think that Sansa needed to be raped to hate the Boltons and want revenge on them. Because the murder of her mother and brother was not enough!
It bothers us because the whole trashy storyline feels like a bad joke. Like they were trolling their audience. “Oh, Sansa is going to be totally empowered now! Look at her black dress… isn’t she empowered! Now she’s going to do stuff… She has leverage over Littlefinger… So, now Littlefinger is going to sell her some story about how she’s going to do great stuff and avenge her family by… marrying Ramsay Bolton! Huh? Wait, we assure you, there’s a plan! … PSYCH! Ha ha ha, of course not, Sansa is such an idiot, were you idiots too to believe in that empowerment crap we were selling you last season? No, now she’s going to be a victim again, but this time, it’s gonna be much worse! Her entire role this season is to be repeatedly raped and beaten!”
It bothers us because the show runners have admitted they had wanted to do this since season 2, i.e. they were planning a rape scene featuring Sophie Turner since she was 15.
It bothers us because it feels like they were providing fanservice to everyone who wants to see Sansa raped and abused (and we know there have been people like that for ages), and to call Sansa an idiot and to claim that she “had it coming” (after all, now they can say she chose to marry Ramsay).
It bothers us because it feels like they enjoy punishing Sansa for being a pretty girl and for rejecting a male character they like, Tyrion, and not rewarding him with sex and love when he did the oh so heroic act of… not raping her after she had been forced to marry him.
It bothers us because the show has been sexist and terrible in its writing of female characters in general. The cheap, exploitative and offensive way they continue to use sexual violence against women as plot device (in the latest episode, attempted rape of a female character – a sexual abuse victim – by Bad Dudes is used as device to get her into bed with a Good Dude!).
Let’s stop with the argument that people are bothered by the very fact that the show portrays rape, rather than the way it does that. People have voiced their actual complaints many times. The storyline is insulting in so many ways, among other things, it insults the viewers’ intelligence.
Let’s not pretend that the show did this because they wanted to honestly portray the suffering of women, the horrors of marital rape, or the suffering of smallfolk. If they wanted that, they would have done the actual ook bJeyne Poole storyline with Jeyne Poole.
Rob wrote: "Sharon wrote: "I hated all of Theon's torture scenes, in both the books and the series. ..."Agreed. They just seem pointless and gratuitous. Disappointing to see Ramsay is a more prominent charac..."
Not really a butterfly effect. They could have easily introduced her again, either as Jeyne or just some random northern girl that Ramsay captured in Winterfell and brought to Dreadfort. They would need 3-4 minutes to establish that they are using her as an impostor to legitimize their rule.
Or, they could have cut the storyline altogether, since they have already removed almost everything else from the northern storyline that Jeyne's storyline was connected to: there are no northern lords on the show (why is Roose even trying to placate them? Who is he trying to placate? There's no on at the wedding!), there are no clansmen ready to fight with Stannis to save who they believe is Arya, and there's no way this will affect Jon's storyline. And they even aren't doing Theon's arc well - the whole point, IMO, is that he saves Jeyne knowing she's not really Arya, that she's "unimportant". They could have just as well have him help save the old lady or whoever. There's no shortage of people Ramsay is torturing.
So, they cut so much else from the books (including some of the most major arcs in AFFC/ADWD), they cut everything else from the North storyline, even Jeyne herself, but they kept the rape and abuse. As if that was the only part that matters.
There were so, so many ways this could have been done, and they came up with the absolute worst one.
Most fans do not dislike Sansa. She is, in fact, one of the most popular characters, at least with book fans. The only ones who are definitely more popular are Arya, Jon, Jaime and probably Tyrion and Dany - but the latter two have had a significant drop in popularity after A Dance with Dragons. But Sansa also has many haters - she's one of the most polarizing characters, alongside Catelyn, Dany, Tyrion (among book fans) and to a lesser extent Jaime, Theon and Stannis. The only characters who seem to be universally liked are Davos and Maester Aemon - even Ned has his detractors.I have lots of favorites in the books. In book 1, my favorites were Tyrion, Arya, Ned, Jon, Dany and Sam, in no particular order. But since, while I still love all those (especially Arya and Dany), others have become my favorites - Sandor Clegane, Sansa, Jaime and Brienne. Many fans hated Dany after ADWD for being indecisive and a flawed ruler, but that's exactly one of the things I love about her, that she's inside always questioning herself and unsure which path to take, while on the outside she has to look completely confident. Tyrion has been much less likable as a person over the course of the series, but I still love him as a character.
In the show... well, I don't know, since almost none of the characters are anything like their book counterparts. But I've stopped caring about the show (and since episode 3, I stopped watching as well). Tyrion has been completely whitewashed and comes off as two-dimensional, Dany is boring and emotionless and gets terrible lines, Brienne has been turned into a rude, unemotional thug because that's how showrunners imagine Strong Female Characters, Jamie was portrayed well in the first three seasons (minus the cousin-killing), but in seasons 4 and 5 they've completely messed up his characterization and development, and he is nothing like the book Jaime at this point (and doesn't even have a consistent characterization on the show). They were always terrible with Sansa's characterization and arc, and now they've destroyed her arc. Sandor was barely in the first three seasons, they kept cutting his lines, and in season 4 they finally gave him screentime, and some of the scenes were really good, but some was OOC and made him into a comedy character. The only one whose characterization and arc haven't been ruined and who's somewhat like the book character is Arya, but it's not like they even did her arc that well, just not as bad.
Sean Bean is lucky that Ned was killed off in season 1, Ned will remain the most faithful adaptation of a character in GoT! Maybe Oberyn as well, when he did not have pointless sex scenes.
Marquise wrote: "Sharon, Tyrion is actually much disliked by a segment of the fandom. Perhaps you haven't been much into the fandom? Post-ASOS he became less popular, because he took a turn for the worse and from t..."Marquise and Rebecca, I completely agree with everything you've said about the Sansa/Ramsay nonsensical plot and the changes on the show.
Just one nitpick - the scene of Sandor rescuing Sansa from the mob was not invented, it was made more dramatic and graphic. In the books, Lollys gets gang raped, while Sandor saves Sansa from a similar fate - but he does it before they even manage to pull her from her horse (in the show, they didn't use horses, everyone was walking). But later he does mention that they would have done the same to her as they did to Lollys, and Sansa understands that she would have been raped, too. However, in the show they made it go much further and Sansa be nearly raped before Sandor comes at the last moment.
What I really hate is that they have dumbed down the story and gone for the lowest common denominator nudity, lazy script dialogue, more nudity, nonsensical scenes and turning truly complex characters into cartoon figures. The scene in episode 7 a sandsnake strips off her clothes so Bronn will tell her she is the prettiest....oh please!!!!!Then Dan and Dave tell us that they have to make these changes due to time considerations and so characters have to be condensed.....But they have made time to have a nude prostitute sit on Bronn's lap before the battle for Blackwater....They made time for the rape-a-thon Crasters keep scene as a character waffled on while women were raped as a backdrop scene...Now the nonsensical sand snake scene with Bronn...this one is now being called 'tits tyene'..women are now props to titillate the audience. Do they assume that only 15 year old boys are watching? Or am I insulting all 15 year old boys?
Jaime has actually become a secondary character as the focus is on Bronn and the lamentable sandsnakes...In the book Jaime's POV showed him in a new light, he was growing, using his intelligence, no longer dependent on Cersei...becoming a skilled negotiator and more politically savvy...In Dorne he's a prop for Bronn. And the most interesting person in Dorne is NOT the sandsnakes but Doran Martell who we've seen for about 2 minutes!! Why did they bother signing up this actor?
I loved how Sansa's scenes were improving throughout her story in the seasons....But she has gone from being the strong girl who calmed the woman of Kings Landing during the battle for Blackwater(& intelligently encouraging Joffrey to risk his own life in the vanguard)to being a helpless ninny who listens to Littlefingers speech of gaining her vengeance but NEVER asking Baelsh HOW she'd be able to achieve this? So like a simpleton she marries Ramsay and is now black and blue being repeatedly raped by this psychopath and then she trusts Theon to help her...when it is obvious the boy is insane and is totally Ramsay's 'creature'....Why, why did they discard the great northern conspiracy? Why discard Manderley in favour of what? Watching Sansa being brutalised by this maniac and somehow this is supposed to be riveting? What is happening to Sansa is horrendous and adds nothing to her Arc....And I can't even understand how many ppl are saying she is now 'empowered' Huh? Being raped should never be seen as an 'empowering' moment for a woman or man.
I can see that the battle for Winterfell is also going to be a debacle and probably inconclusive. Once again the excuse of time constraints will be used....Cut down the sandsnakes waste of time and they could've included more Stannis VS the Boltons......
Ah dear this is the worst season of GOT so far...the only high-light...Natalie Dormer, Diana Rigg, Jonathon Pryce, Lena Heady and Aiden Gillen(tho I loathe Littlefinger).
I will stick with my thought that it simply didn't make sense for Sansa to marry Ramsay Bolton. No sense at all and in 'real life' she'd never have done it especially as there was never a plan B for her...too silly for words.....*shakes head*
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