Fat Mogul vs. The Joker
The Joker on the cover of Batman: The Man Who Laughs
Although Batman is easily my least favorite superhero of all time (Spider-man sitting in a a very close second place), The Joker is just as easily my favorite villain.
There’s so much brilliance about this character, especially if you take into consideration how much I hate origin stories. The Joker is the man without an origin…or at least without one that sticks. He does tend to have a ton of attempts at telling where he came from, and very few of them match up.
I actually find it amusing how often writers, who have taken a short run at the Batman books, decide to attempt to create an origin for The Joker. Heck, even Tim Burton went for it with his first Batman film. Although I think Jack Nicholson’s Joker definitely deserves some credit in its portrayal, I can’t help but believe that those who would attempt to give The Joker a legitimate origin don’t actually understand the character.
Sure, he likes to play with the idea of origin, give little hints about where he came from (that generally turn out later to be entirely fabricated), give little nods to his actual name, or any number of other things that would give the idea that there was something there before the crazed maniac that we all know, love, and fear; but that’s all part of the brilliance. There is not start to the Joker, he just always was, always there, waiting for Batman, so he could wreak havoc within The Bat’s world.
There’s actually plenty to be said within the standard Joker continuity, for the suggestion that The Joker does not actually exist, that he is purely another piece of Batman’s broken psyche, coming out to battle against that man who has taken on his one man battle against crime. Why not? Batman has shown time and again that he could completely eradicate his city of crime with very little effort, but yet continues to place his enemies within the revolving door sanitarium of Arkham.
This idea that The Joker could be a manifestation of The Bat’s darker self gets even more interesting when you research how frequently comics have ended with the appearance of The Joker’s death, only to have him pop up again in the next issue (or a few issues down the line).
The Joker is best because we simply don’t know anything about him. He could be anything, anyone, and anywhere. And, he has absolutely nothing stopping him from being everyone’s worst nightmare. He’s insane…But his insanity seems mostly focused on Batman..to destroy the life Batman has built for himself. He’s killed Robin, crippled Batgirl, destroyed the Batcave…so many of his efforts have been purely against Batman that one can’t help but wonder…what if Batman really is just The Joker trying to both give The Batman a reason for existence at the same time as giving Bruce a way out of being The Bat.
Of course…that might be a little too much like Fight Club…
Needless to say, The Joker is infinitely cooler than Batman, and infinitely more interesting of a character. Where Batman seems to have absolutely no character development over the years, The Joker seems to be constantly changing, his history an ever-evolving enigma, while his future seemingly unstoppable.
If there’s one reason the Batman comics have continued to exist for these past 75+ years, it’s because of characters like The Joker. Because who doesn’t want to see what the clown prince of crime will come up with next. That probably explains why The Joker appeared in Batman #1 and keeps coming back…. (For the record, Batman’s first appearance was in Detective Comics #27, approximately a year earlier).
Actually, if you take a look there, there’s good reason to believe that Batman might not have continued to exist without The Joker. Around the same time that The Joker appeared in the books, they also introduced Robin…which really sounds like some early attempts to shake things up to make a book more interesting.
Alright, I’m out. Have fun out there!
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The debate about who is more 'interesting' between Superman and Batman could probably go on for forever...in my opinion, the only way in which Batman wins that battle is in the fact that his villains carry the show. Batman has some of the coolest bad guys around, the Joker, of course, being the highlihgt of them all.Now...if you want to talk about the fact that Superman will go from stopping a mugging to immediately following that up with some grand cosmic battle alongside the new gods, while also actually having a thriving relationship with both his wife/girlfriend (depending on which continuity) and his mother/father (again, might not even be alive depending on continuity), while also struggling to gather the fragments of the lost world from which he came, and somehow gain a better understanding of a world he could never know...well...I don't know...seems like there's a lot more going on just with the basic background information than cranky man who hangs out in a cave with his ward while still grieving his parents ;-)
Thanks for the debate. I could honestly go on for a whole heckuva long time about both characters (spiderman...yeah...I think I've got him covered already). The main reason I take such issue with Batman is probably more due to his widespread popularity when he really is one of the flattest characters in the DC Universe. I enjoy his books on a regular basis, but generally for the villains.
I think his appeal is that he has no powers. Anyone of us could be him (minus the billions) if we had the right motivation and one really bad day. Ironically, the Joker is the same, hence his scheme in the Killing Joke.
(a lot less talkative without the wine, I see :-) )I totally get that people are drawn to him because of his lack of powers...but he also seems so much less human than many of the rest of the superheroes out there. And there are tons of others who have no powers who just haven't received anywhere near the acclaim, like Green Arrow, Iron Man (before the movies came out anyways), Black Widow, The Question, the old school version of Sandman, Wildcat...obviously the list can go on.
Batman was an Errol Flynn ripoff, made all the more obvious by his sidekick naming himself Robin (after Robin Hood, of course)...now he's come a long way since then, but his lack of powers only plays a very small role in things, at least when considering how many other folks can claim that same limitation. He does have some killer toys...most of which were ripped off by Green Arrow (who is, of course, just a Batman clone), but his motivation for what he does is so limited that I have a difficult time believing that there's anything that draws people to him more than two things.
1. The villains, as I will shout till my dying breath, I think.
2. How he oozes badassness. I mean, the Batman voice is a joke, and he doesn't kill so the fear aspect surrounding him is questionable as well, but in the end, he does everything in black and doesn't give a shit what anyone thinks. He's cool, the kind of guy kids wish they could be (even though, in reality, he lives a rather empty life and should be seen as a much more tragic figure than he's generally portrayed).
But, of course, I'm quite in the minority in my thoughts that Batman is heavily overrated, so perhaps I'm way off base. I just can't help but think Batman suffers more from wanting to be an anti-hero, you know, like The Punisher, but without all the killing and stuff.
He did create Brother Eye though...which was not in any way a direct rip off of Ultron ;-)
I am typing on a phone, so I write less. Batman is a tragic figure. To me his life seems more real than many other heroes. When would he have time for normal human interaction, or a wife? He has dedicated himself to his quest. I don't know when Superman finds time to sleep with all he gets done. And though there are many non-powered heroes, they do not have the iconic image. Green Arrow is Robin Hood, talk about an Erol Flynn rip off. Many heroes play on old themes, the Hulk is Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. Batman is a modern day Sherlock Holmes, but with ninja skills. For me, the best thing about him is that no matter how dark he seems, he is an optimist. He believes in decent people, hence his large cadre of sidekicks and allies. Anywho, there are good and bad about all superheroes. It seems to depend on who is writing them these days.
Figured it was something as simple as phone typing, just thought it was a great opportunity to note that you probably weren't drinking during the daytime hours.I'm not certain that Superman typically requires sleep...I'm actually drawing a blank on that at the moment, but I'm pretty sure that's been highlighted from time to time...Then again, in Smallville, I do remember a scene where Clark woke up and was floating over the bed...so I could be way off.
Regardless, although it may be more realistic for Batman to not have time to do any of that (or run his multi-billion dollar company that finances his exploits), it really seems to dehumanize him more than most, as he doesn't have a real life. He's almost robotic.
Granted, as you state, different writers can use this to great effect, such as Miller's version which shows him as being completely incapable of social interaction as a crotchedy old man (used quite wonderfully by Batman Beyond as well).
Anyways, like I said, this could go on for forever. Miller also did a fantastic job of dehumanizing Superman, making him into nothing more than a weapon for the government, so who is doing the writing can make a world of difference. I much prefer the stories of Supes when you get to see the true burden his position as the world's greatest superhero places on him, such as in things like Kingdom Come (obviously hitting up the bigger storylines here for ease of discussion).
In the end...I still read a ton of Batman. I just make sure to pick out the ones with my favorite villains, which I'm not quite as picky about with Superman...then I more focus on the cover artwork to get an idea of what type of story I'm going to be getting into...Superman cover artwork will tell you a lot about that.
BTW, really enjoying the debate. Most people just write me off as a Batman-hater pretty quickly and don't like to continue talking with me about it at all. To be completely fair, I really love the older Batman stuff, before everyone tried to be Frank Miller. And I love some of the newer stuff as well. The earlier responses to the death of Jason Todd were amazing (dragged on for waaay too long, imo). Same with the whole Dick Grayson becoming Nightwing storyline. And I loved Knightfall...although I'm still not entirely certain how Bruce healed himself outside of just being pissed that Azrael was running his name through the mud.
I just think he's overrated is all. And wouldn't be nearly as interesting if he were facing off against villains like Lex Luther or Doomsday or any of the other much more boring Superman villains. Instead you've got The Joker, The Penguin, Mr. Freeze, Poison Ivy, Catwoman (sometimes), Bane (sometimes)...and seriously the list could go one for forever...and include Calendar Man, although the new version isn't quite to my liking.
Alright...rant over (for now).
This wine fueled response has been brought to you by me. I hope it is intelligible enough to read.