Matthew Parris and Accuracy

On Wednesday night, at a debate in London mentioned elsewhere here, Matthew Parris said the following about a broadcast exchange that he and I had on Sunday 31st October, on Radio 4's Sunday programme.

'It is always a pleasure to be harangued by a Hitchens, and Peter started limbering up at 7.30 on Radio 4 on Sunday morning. The programme was called "Pause for Thought", an injunction Peter has built a media career on overlooking.

'Among his arguments, I recall, was the assertion that discriminating against gays is OK because it is an objective fact that gay relationships are inferior, whereas discrimination against Blacks or Jews is not OK because it is an objective fact that this is sheer prejudice.'

Those interested in hearing the whole exchange can find it on the BBC iPlayer about 25 minutes into the programme, transmitted at around 7.35 am.

I haven't time at the moment to transcribe the entire segment, but I urge everyone interested (and Mr Parris) to listen to it in full. There is an initial exchange in which I mention the Dawkins equation of the raising of children as Christians with child abuse. I also put my case that the new dogmas of 'Human Rights' and 'Equality and Diversity' are supplanting Christianity as our main moral system, and driving it out of the public sphere. I make no mention of homosexuality at this stage of the argument. Mr Parris, however, does. But I have transcribed here the later part of the discussion to which Mr Parris was referring.

It begins with him recounting that he was born in South Africa, where the Dutch Reformed Church promoted racial bigotry. He then equates this bigotry with the Christian attitude towards homosexuality, the second time he has mentioned the subject in this short debate - though on this occasion he has been prompted to do so by the presenter, Edward Stourton, who mentions the case of the couple, Owen and Eunice Johns, told they cannot foster in future because they are not prepared to tell their foster children that they approve of homosexuality. The important thing about this case is missed by Mr Stourton and Mr Parris - that what is required from the couple is not discretion, or even silence, but an actual positive affirmation of a way of life which they think wrong.

Instead Mr Parris launches into his equation of racial bigotry with Christian sexual morality.

I respond. 'It's a false comparison.

'Racial bigotry is irrational, stupid and indefensible. It is based on a fundamental misunderstanding. There is no difference between people of different skin colours apart from their colour.'

At this point Mr Parris interrupts, rather bizarrely.

'That is what you say, Peter.'

To which I retort:

'You don't think that? I think so.'

Mr Stourton intervenes to prevent Mr Parris interrupting further, and I continue:

'I am completely opposed to racial bigotry precisely because it is irrational and stupid. The argument about homosexuality is a tiny side-issue of the major point - which is "is lifelong heterosexual marriage the only sexual relationship which society is prepared to endorse, or not? Which used to be the case, and is now not the case."

'That is a different argument and involves the application of reason and a number of other things. It is not to be compared to racial bigotry by any serious and thoughtful person - and to do so is simply a smear.'

At this point the discussion is brought to a brisk end by Mr Stourton, against my pleas for more time.

So far as I know, there is no such programme as 'Pause for Thought', though this alleged title gives Mr Parris a cheap laugh line. I do not think Mr Parris's account of what I said can be said to be an accurate one. I told him so, fairly forcefully, both during the debate and after it. He was taken aback by my unconcealed scorn for his behaviour, and responded by telling me that the New Testament has several injunctions against anger. Indeed it does. But it also has some fairly strong suggestions that we should try to tell the truth.

Go here for the Intelligence Squared audio from Wednesday November 3 and scroll down for the audio.

Go here for the audio from Radio 4's Sunday programme. The discussion begins about 25 minutes in.

If you want to comment on Peter Hitchens, click on Comments and scroll down.