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message 51:
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Kathie (katmom)
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Sep 24, 2014 03:04PM

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Thanks. It's been weird. Everything about this writing world is always interesting.

There is also freedom of speech in this country and I wouldn't deign to tell anyone to shut up about what they feel passionate about. This debate shall likely continue ad infinitum, once I have retired from writing altogether, or dead in my grave. However, I don't see anything "morally wrong" with someone publishing a fanfiction who has been given the blessing from the author whose characters she used in said fan fiction once it was published (Yes Stephenie Meyer did say, "Good on her," when asked what she thought of E. L. James publishing her fanfiction, and she did not sue as many believed she would.). I just think that continuing to flog a dead horse is another one of those exercises in futility that I don't personally wish to participate in. And I really am "done here." Good evening ladies!

There just isn't enough of a subject here to continue educating me about. You clearly stated your reasons right off the bat. I understand them, but disagree. You are the one who chose to blow up and get nasty. I would seriously get a handle on that anger if I were you, it can lead to strokes, cancer, and heart disease.
The p2p issue seems to be one that is very, very dear to you by your reactions. I have much heavier things in life to mull over, argue, and worry about, so you are fortunate.
I prefer not to travel by horse.

Thanks for being the voice of reason, Bev. I think I will follow your example and leave this particular discussion, since the p2p "issue" is just something I don't care about enough to keep yakking about.

Goodbye, Einolem. I hope you find your next victim more appealing to your condescension.

I share Annalund's disappointment.

i also think we're allowed to evolve when it comes to our opinions and how we feel about things. experience is the best teacher, isn't it?
coming out about this was brave. i appreciate your honesty, and continue to support you because i know the kind of person you really are.
and anyway, your writing *is* good. i don't care if it's YA or erotica; you have a gift with dialog and plots that resonate. best sellers aren't always good and the good stuff doesn't always sell well. sometimes that's the case, but not always.
anyway, keep your head up. i will always look forward to your next story. always.

i also think we're allowed to evolve when it comes to our opinions and how we feel about things. expe..."
Thanks Ro!
Situations change, life changes, ideas change blahblahblah... You know as well as anyone that I am constantly pushing fanfic authors to go original (nudge*nudge). I want all the fantastic writers out there to find their own story.
I have found SO many stories in my head,all of them original, including Taboo, IMO. (13 published so far) And thank you to FF for giving me a start. And so many awesome supporters.
*PS I've got plans for you. I'll be in touch.

Thanks Kelly! Can't wait to hear what you think.

Feel free to copy and use, Lori. Stealth bullies can be found on either side of controversial issues.


No, I absolutely was NOT part of twankhard. In fact, one of my main justifications for doing this behind AG's back (yes, i felt guilty. wah) was because SHE did Twankhard behind MY back and only confessed to it after it got so crazy and everything.
One interesting part of being friends in this fandom is we are very often lumped together. I had nothing to do with Icy way back when. I've never spoken to her and know nothing about her other than what I've heard and seen. AG and I have been accused of a dozen conspiracies but Twankhard isn't one of them, neither are the sock accounts, fandom wanks, and then now this.
Regardless, I've already owned the fact I am hypocritical o this subject so go ahead and point it out further. Makes no difference to me.
I know you guys can't see gray in this subject, this whole thing was an experiment. And the anti-p2p people prove the point I was trying to make over and over.
I would happily share my view on p2p and what I think about it, but I know you don't want to listen, and I don't really care to explain it. It doesn't matter. What's done is done.

I wouldn't take those posts back, but in the long run I do think they hurt me as an author and my image slightly. But again, it was my choice. I don't care. If people are intolerant of opposing views then I'm not really interested in dealing with them.

As a lawyer, I must disagree that any legal precedent has been set here. No case was ever brought, and it doesn't look likely that it will be, but that doesn't mean legal precedent has been established. Legal precedent is not set by inaction; it's set by cases being litigated and principles of law being settled that are binding on other courts and litigants. That hasn't happened here.

Precisely. In either case, the comments I made to Angel didn't mention any question of legality, but morality and integrity.

My mistake, then. I apologize for lumping you and AG together.
I'm neither for p2p, nor against it. I have issues with Icy and how she was willing to put the Twific fandom at risk by publishing such a high profile fic because we didn't yet know how Stephenie Meyer would react. Icy's move could have shut down all fanfic writing, had SM decided to take legal steps and/or taken away her permission for us to fanfic her work.
Now that we know that SM is ok with works being published that started out as Twific, I think it's less of a big deal for Twific authors to p2p. There are MANY other legit reasons that people object to p2p (it takes advantage of the fandom readers, especially when a fic is pulled before it is completed, etc. etc.). But I think it is understandable that someone's view on p2p has shifted over the years.
Best of luck to you in everything you do!

Some let people know they are publishing in order for them to grab the fic.
So apparently if according to what they are saying in these post your supposed to notify them . PFFFTtt

Nobody insinuated that Angel should have told anyone, except maybe her friend Sam, prior to pulling this off. Nobody insinuated that she had to ask permission. Basic reading skills eluding you? What I, and some others on this thread, are saying is that Angel was just as much against it (or at least pretending to be against it) at a time when she published her fanfic. That's the deception.
Have a nice day.

She didnt even have to notify her friend personally.. and btw check your facts before you say she pulled something which btw she did its still up on fan fiction has been up for a very long time.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7153634/...
SO maybe basic reading skill are eluding you.

I said nothing about her pulling it. I said: when she pulled this off this being the deception.
Try again.

If people really wanted to hurt P2P authors then they'd say noting. I've seen books have a 5 star rating because they only have 2 reviews and it was published over 2 years ago, but no one talks about them. Yet you look at these P2P books with maybe a 3.5 to 3.9 rating and they have over 1000 reviews because the anti-P2P people are mass reviewing it telling people to find the free version online. Most people don't read all the bad reviews, maybe 2 or 3, and then they go to the 4 and 5 star reviews. But you know what those readers mainly see? The review count. At the end of the day the anti-P2P people are doing the authors a favor by bumping the numbers up. When it comes to numbers it's no different then readers picking a FF to read based of the review count.
Hell, I love those ladies at the anti-P2P group. No one gave a damn about my story when it was a FF, nobody read the bloody thing because it wasn't a sex story, but now that it's about to come out as a book people are talking. People care now. LOL. I have a group of people taking the time out of their life to think of me and talk about me and my book. And you know what, thank you! I have more people looking into my book now then ever before.
Now Angel, I applaud you on your honesty, and it was a brave thing to come forward knowing you'd get shit for it. I'm sure people are posting this thread all over FB and Twitter, and your sales have boosted for it. I'm sure the arguments in the comments are to be thanked for that because people like reading drama. LOL. I wish you luck and hope many plot bunnies grab you with riveting story ideas.
Cheers and goodnight

Absolutely, positively, 100% correct. Is p2p using the fandom? Yes. Does the fandom want to be used? Apparently so. For a long time I didn't think they did, (I didn't) but I've learned over and over that this isn't true.
Again, my reasons for publishing my story are varied from it's a story I love to, I wonder what will happen. I accept the results. I hate that a couple friends are disappointed but I knew that going in, so that does make me a sucky friend on that account.
But yeah, the anti-p2p people are the ones that actually bring more publicity than an average self-pubbed author ever could bring. It's pretty amazing.



I dont see it advertised in the fandom unless you are friends with the author on Facebook but I wouldn't consider that using the fandom as your base.
So they put their author stuff on their profile on FFN at the end of the day no body reads their profile.
Trust me I know they just scroll through to the stories or just ask around for a story.
so this say they are using the fandom to advertise their books is wrong.
A person has a right to change there stance on how they feel about p2p.
I have friends who are anti p2p we get along just fine because at the end of they day we are adult enough to know that we all cant agree.

Thank you. When I wrote The Merman for the contest (of which it was never entered--i entered a different one) it had a space limit of 10k words. I always wanted to write more but I was also tied to writing original fiction at that point, had a slew of YA books but in the end i wanted to write more because the story wouldn't leave me alone.
When Simon and Schuster started snapping up books I had to really reassess my feelings. Frankly I was too exhausted to care.

I think there is some truth to this--the author (me) publishes a book for an audience that wants something specific. I have written 12 other books (two names) with some sense of success (nothing massive of course) but people seem to really like to read p2p fanfic. I too do not buy any or much. I've bought a couple by some friends, but most of the books out are not ones that I read as fanfics so they don't interest me much. 90% of what i read is dystopian or YA though, so that's just my preference.

I dont see it advertised in the fandom unless you are frien..."
From a pure marketing standpoint ff.net allows a way to directly connect to your readers. This is pretty much the most valuable marketing tool someone can have. Fandom readers are loyal and do want to read various projects by fanfic authors. They DO read those alerts, when they may not read an email, or see a tweet flutter by. People on WattPad use this method of communicating all the time. It seems very normal there. Sometimes certain fandoms seem to make up their own rules and assume we should all live by them. IDK
At any point a reader can be removed from author alerts or other such things, especially if it seems like they are no longer writing for the fandom.

I agree with Kris up there.
When FSOG came out, I read in a couple places that the anti-p2pers were guessing that its success came from us fangirls (yes, I definitely include myself in that group) were buying more than one copy to get the book higher in the Amazon standings. As much as I love E.L. James, buying ONE book is enough. And I'm pretty sure the rest of the "fan girls" didn't have that kind of cash sitting around to be used to buy multiple copies of the books. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
I had my google set to send me notifications when FSOG was mentioned on the Internet. I wanted to read about the acclaim she was getting because I was truly tickled for her. Something I noticed in the comments for every article that I was alerted to were this specific group pointing out that FSOG was a former fan fiction. They were screaming and flaming the practice, as well as the author and the book. It occurred to me then that the naysayers were bringing attention to the book. Much more so than EL James merry group of fan girls. Drama and conflict SELL. Or at least bring PUBLICITY to the arena. It was true then, and it's true now.
I gave a book a very low rating here and at Amazon. I gave spoiler warnings. That book was consistently in the best sellers at Amazon for MONTHS. My review has 50/57 likes there and comes up first on the review list. Makes me wonder if part of the "appeal" is because there was a hint of drama over it.
As someone said, 'There's no such thing as bad publicity' and if people are talking about your book, people will look, and some will buy. I figure let the naysayers keep the buzz going and let the buyers make their own decision.
No one is forcing anyone to buy an original work or a p2p book. It's a personal choice.
Have to laugh, too. There's a huge published book, HUGE. And a whole group of the anti-p2pers have read it and loved it. It's not from the Twilight fandom and I guess the word just didn't get out about it coming from another one. I won't tell which it is, but it tickles me to see so many anti-p2pers reading and loving it. That, of course, is apropos to nothing, but it still tickles me. Oh, and she didn't even change all of the names!

I personally have no issues with people who choose to p2p so, that's not the issue here. I agree with you about fanfic writing many times it isn't so called fan fic, it's org fic while using character names. My issues with p2p involve the lack of character development that comes with it, but that's a conversation for another time. What I'm getting at here is that I understand why you did, but that doesn't mean it's ok. To quote you from your own blog post dated 9-2012*
Angel says: A year ago fanfic was the dirty little secret most of us kept on our ipads, laptops and secret files hidden on our computers, but as of early 2012 everyone knows there is money to be made in publishing fanfic. As someone who made the query rounds, followed the rules and eventually decided to self-publish, my main issue is that publishers have tipped their hat. Book selling, like all selling, is about $$$. Which is…whatever, but don’t tell me my original fiction is less worthy than a formula driven fanfic, with crappy editing, a gazillion adverbs and cut and paste characters. This is the subject that makes my blood boil. While writers were sweating over our first 500 words, we could have been pulling up badly written erotica we had saved on our desktops and making a mint. But then again, some of us have standards.***
Where are your standards now?

We are supposed to stay stangnet cause of what we thought say a 1 to 2 years ago cause people expect that from us.
Alot of authors hide that they p2p why cause as she said the fic police.
Ive seen how they harass the authors going as far as contacting orginzations and telling them said author is publishing Fetish.
IE. Amber L Johnson's Puddle Jumping. Her edward was a High Functioning Autistic.
Supposedly all Autistic people are Asexual. News to those who have autism and news to parents who have and autistic child.
http://www.autism.com/understanding_s...
So I dont blame her for do what she did even look at this whole forum.

Here are my thoughts on that post:
Obviously I was very frustrated. Publishing (have you done it? I'm seriously asking, because if you haven't it's a world of it's own) is very challenging. It will make you exhausted and neurotic. It leads to intense self-doubt, panic and an overall feeling of discontent at times. It is VERY very hard not to judge yourself against others. To put it in perspective, I own another business. Like a physical business. It's not earth shattering, nor does it make a ton of money (often we don't pay ourselves) but we've been in business for 10+ years. Not once during that time have I gone into another business to compare myself. I occasionally will look into new competitors but really, it doesn't matter. We do what we do and move on with our work. Book selling isn't like this. It's very stressful and it's a slippery slope in how you manage your attitude, productivity and everything else.
So yes, in 2012, when I wrote that blog post i was obviously super frustrated. To be honest I still get really frustrated, but at that point, that frustration was over the fact that my FB feed, my twitter feed, my GR feed was FILLED with chatter about 50SOG (etc) yet no one was talking about any original fiction work from the fandom. People go on and on (this blog) about the terrible, horribleness of P2P but that negative attention is still more attention that an OF will garner and trust me, one thing I have learned in the book business (unlike my other one) is that there is no such thing as bad press.
So yes, I guess my standards have changed as well as my opinion. I'm sorry that is so offensive to you all, but what's done is done and I'm okay with it.
**I will add this too. Part of the frustration I have felt in the past over all of this is how there is a big divide among many p2p authors and OF authors. It's like we're Team Edward vs. Team Jacob. Often there is no co-existing. I have never felt this way. From the beginning I have reached out to authors from all parts of the fandom. People that p2p and authors who write OF. I have helped promote both types of work. I involve myself with them because once you step on the other side of the publishing window it's a whole other world. We all did a lot of work in the fandom, making friends, establishing betas...gathering pre-readers. To be honest, I still depend on many fandom related people for advice. They are my first go-to and after a while it was more important to me to work with people I trusted than shun those who p2p.
In the past week I have been accused of picking on particular p2p authors. I do, and still have strong feelings about Icy. And if you know me and have talked to me personally you will know that even then, all of my thoughts about her are not entirely negative. I think she is a shrewd business woman. She obviously set a goal and made it happen. Do i like how it all went down? No. Definitely not. Does what I think make any difference? Hell no. That has been proven.
There are people out there that think I have hard feelings toward many of the p2p authors. No, I have some negative feelings about PEOPLE and those feelings predate any p2p work. But that's my personal issue. We all have personal issues and drama, but don't act like I've gone on the attack on people that have p2p directly. Again, you all don't know my relationships with all the authors out there. Once you get in the publishing game we all sort of end up on the same side anyway.
**FYI: It's late, I just got home from 1D and i have no idea if any of that makes sense.

We are supposed to stay stangnet cause ..."
***************
I don't think people have to stay stagnate. I don't believe that at all. I do believe that when people are a public figure/persona (like a writer) that have been vocal against an idea & make a change going against what they previously preached then they should own it, not hide it. That's my issue here. Why hide it? Be proud of what you write. It's called integrity and there is none to be found here. That is why I'm disappointed.
Fic Police will always have something to be upset over. Some people are never happy in life, no matter what. To me, that's no excuse, that's a weak justification for doing something that a person has condemned others for.
I don't understand the whole Puddle Jumping reference or your link to Autism.com. What in the world does that have to do with anything here? Amber owned her p2p. She's honest about it. Is it because of the Fic Police? Most people understand those folks will never happy. They will complain about EVERYTHING & look for every avenue to have a p2p taken down. Is it a chance to promote another book? I don't get it.
BTW, I don't need a lesson in autism, my daughter is a great teacher ; )

She didnt deserve the harassment she got either. Yea they are unhappy people.
It didnt matter that she owned it either

That said, I don't care about fan fiction or the question of plagiarism. I'm sure if it's too close to the original someone will end up sued.
I do care about reading new books by Roxy Queen (or whatever name you choose) since Taboo is one of my favorite books and I have subsequently bought each new one after it. I've loved them all.
My advice is to move past all this and get back to writing books. They seem to be selling better for you with less effort and after reading this blog I would guess less stress. Hell, just reading this blog was stressful.

That said, I don't care about fan ..."
done and done. moving on!
and thanks so much!

You raise a valid point. I've never understood why the lemmings race over the cliff with money in their fists for rewritten fanfic. Rather than be angry at them I've always felt kind of sad that they seem so eager. They're imagining Edward and Bella. They couldn't give a hoot about the original characters which is why many of them don't follow the original fiction of these authors. Kind of like being a "One Hit Wonder" because most of these authors will probably sink into obscurity once they run out of repackaged fic.

Thanks Kelly! Can't wait to hear what you think."
Bravo, love! Amazing just like I knew they would be. <3