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Dicey
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Sep 22, 2014 04:38PM

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Thanks! Sometimes a good story is too hard to shove away, you know?



Of course it does. I tagged it as such. I'm admitting it. What's done is done (18 months ago) and there's no going back.
And obviously the genre made a difference. Absolutely. YA is a tough ebook sell. Contemporary (which is really more where Roxy's books fall anyway) is slightly easier but still tough. And regardless, the point is that i DO sell non-erotic books. I have 7 of them, plus several short stories and I bet this is the first time you've ever contacted me or spoken to me. YOU don't care about original fiction, you just want to stir the pot.
I'm offering the pot.

As far as pot stirring goes, why did you make this post? Why not leave Roxy as Roxy? The only reason I can see (not that I know anything, I'm just a stupid reader) is to generate buzz, sympathy, and the almighty $.
It's so easy to fluff me off as some rude P2P hater but take a deeper look at your own reasons for putting this out there.


Thanks Teresa, I appreciate your support!It means a lot.

Thanks Tiffany! Funny huh?

I own my reasons entirely. I put it in the author's note on ff.net. Readers often asked for an update/additional words. They have been written for a long time. The original work is still up. If someone wants to read it there, then great! Yay. In fact, I recently put my book FanGirl on Wattpad, for free. I often do free promos on amazon. And I am well aware that all of my books can be downloaded from pirate sites. If people are offended that I make money from my work, then I totally suggest they don't buy it.
And YES, p2p is not my favorite thing, and i wish all authors would write their own original material.
But here's the catch...and yes, I am OWNING THIS, you've never heard about my 12 original works, but you're here now. Why? Because of this post and publishing 10k words of fanfiction, that's why.
Sorry, but not sorry. You only prove the point I was making in the first place.

Angel, I used to have a t-shirt that I only wore around Thanksgiving. It read "Don't Let The Turkeys Get You Down".
I hope you take that advice. ;-)

No worries. Other people don't bother me too much, it's just my own neurosis!

I was alerted to this profile and the P2P fanfic issue by an online friend. And now I'm torn. First off, the "P2P police are nasty" - that comment really pissed me off. You've been one of the advocates against P2P, you're part of the P2P FF group here on GR, and you've previously spoken out against it.
Your blog post, and the update on FFn, seem to me like one of two things - either you felt so guilty that you had to come clean, or you feel the need to create buzz and invite sympathy from those you've fooled. If it's simply the former, I do understand feeling guilty and wanting to share what you've done. On the other hand, if this is a plea for sympathy, I've got none to give. You're likely not the only one who decided to P2P a not so popular oneshot and make it into a book, not advertising it, not hyping it, not even looking to use your FF fame to sell it. Good on you for that part, and that part alone. You were lucky, I suppose, for not being found out sooner, which is most likely because you used a somewhat obscure oneshot to rewrite and publish. And I suppose also that you feel by leaving it up on FFn, you probably didn't cross anyone's radar (at least until now), because something previously available there didn't disappear.
So, yeah, I'm torn. Part of me is glad you came clean. The other part is angry with you for your deception. I can't tell you yet which part will win out. And you might want to reconsider your statement about the "P2P Police".
S.

And YES, p2p is not my favorite thing, and i wish all authors would write their own original material."
You neatly skated over my questions above but I didn't really expect answers.
I'm not offended in the least if you make money off your work. What a ridic statement! I won't spend $ on someone who sells out and a second later says "And YES, p2p is not my favorite thing, and i wish all authors would write their own original material."
I wish all authors would write their own original material, too. You and your buddies can make turkey jokes and avoid questions all you like, I'm just stating my opinion. (This is a public post no?) I haven't said anything untrue or hateful. Maybe hit close to home? Whatever.

I was alerted to ..."
I've really never understood the sometimes downright rabid dismay over p2p. It's just such a non-issue. What am I missing?

It's lazy writing. You are using characters from an existing universe, characters someone else created, and putting them in a different situation. There is a reason most of these don't translate well into publishing because they retain these characteristics. You don't have to explain why a certain character does a certain thing, because your audience already knows this characters and its idiosyncrasies. You don't have to give a character description, because we all know what they look like. It's lazy. And it's writing off the back of someone else, because these characters you're using do not belong to you.
P2P has been around, and the "rabid dismay" has been there for the last 3 years. If you still don't understand it, I doubt my explanation will help you with that endeavor.
Try listening, try seeing things from a different viewpoint. Your support of Angel is commendable, but those that oppose deserve to be heard just the same.

And YES, p2p is not my favorite thing, and i wish all authors would write their own o…"
You seem to be seeing grand, nefarious moves on this writer's part like *gasp!* making a little money off of their WORK.
If that's all that she's done "wrong", along with having a change of mind/heart, which you seem to see as some massive, earth-shattering form of hypocrisy, then I don't see the villainy here.
As for me being a "pal", I actually found her profile only yesterday after I saw a list of fanfic authors who have gone on to publish their works.
I do spend my hard-earned dollars on buying the books of authors who participated in fanfiction. I see it as a form of support for their endeavors and a thank-you for the enjoyment they have given me for free online for years (plus it's good stuff).
Everybody starts somewhere. But to see these people bashed so pointlessly and needlessly is somewhat upsetting and very bewildering.
Oh and what happened to women empowering other women to succeed?

I was alerted to ..."
Sandra,
I appreciate your support over the last several years. It does mean a lot and I do not want to imply otherwise.
The "Fanfic Police," yea, I'm not going to take that back. I've seen too many people straddle a gray line (Not me) of what is considered "p2p" (my friend bethaboo is one of these) where it is all black or white and zero logic is put into place. I've seen other people put on the "list" that haven't written fanfic at all and frankly, in the end, I find the whole argument exhausting. That exhaustion is what caused me to do my "experiment" in the first place. The term Police comes from calling it is what is is. Who cares? You guys track and report fanfiction. You police the book/fandom community. If I can own the fact I did, fairly hypocritically p2p, then you guys can own that name.
At the time I published Taboo/The Merman on amazon I actually sort of documented my journey in some notes I made. I did feel guilty. I felt horribly conflicted. I felt extremely frustrated and really, I wanted to see what would happen. I have had more than one author tell me how surprised they are at the results. The amount of time/energy etc, put into publishing and promoting a book is insane. To shove one up there with a crappy, self-made cover, zero professional editing and written in a couple of weeks AND then make more money on it than your other books that you do everything the "right" way? It's disheartening.
I chose The Merman because it's my favorite story I've ever written. I left the fanfic up because I added 20k words to the original. Also, I left it up because I wasn't hiding. If anything I suppose I was hiding in plain sight. In my notes from the time I literally thought I would get caught in WEEKS. 18 months later I just felt like it was time to come clean. Did I have other motivations behind coming clean? Yes. Absolutely. Do some of them have to do with book selling? Sure. Do some have to do with pushing through with the original intent of my experiment? Yep.
Again, nothing about this, to me at least, is black or white. It's entirely gray. It was a complicated decision for me which is why I decided to post the above information.
And to Jena--who I'm adding in here because I'm too lazy to write a second post. In the end I don't have to justify myself to anyone. I chose to come clean in this manner. More for my self, which again has nothing to do with justifying anything to anyone. People that know me understand that I over analyze everything. I love to plan. I love to organize. I am obsessed with how things work, marketing, promotion, tracking sales, clicks, links etc. This is not my only business. Book selling is the biggest wild card out there. I love it and hate it. So regardless of ulterior motives, seriously, curiosity came in a close second (after frustration) in this.
That's about all I have to say on the matter. I'm not one to get in a fight (haha, totally not true, I am, but not over this).
In the end, the results of my revealing the additional books (positive vs. negative) are in the comments from readers. Yes, many of them have purchased books. Many have sent me messages. Very, very few are negative.
Ultimately, Roxy Queen will not be a gazillionaire with a deal from Simon and Schuster. She's a pen name that allows me a break from writing YA books and putting out some different material. Oh and a way for me to finish something (The Merman) that wouldn't get out of my head.
*shrug*

I understand your reasons. It has to be utterly heartbreaking to see your OF flounder in a sea of YA novels, and watch a moral-lacking woman rest on a bed of millions of dollars for writing and then regurgitating a crappy fanfic. I'm sure that burned. I even understand that you wanted to experiment, to see if an erotic novella would do better than your YA novels. And you proved that it did. It likely succeeded not because it was former fanfic and a brilliant piece, but because you tapped into the hottest market there is right now - erotic fantasies for women. Let's be honest here - you know just as well as I do that this is the reason it sold, and sold well. Hot naked guy on cover, promise of an illicit affair with a young guy and an older woman inside - hell yeah, it'll sell.
As I said earlier, I'm glad you came clean. I'm also pissed off at your hypocrisy. Because in the last 18 months, you've still advocated against P2P. Perhaps not as "nastily" as some others, but against it just the same. Knowing all along that you did the same exact thing you were so adamantly against. And that burns me.

It's lazy writing. You are using characters from an exis…"
I won't deny that - depending on the fic - that the pre-existing characteristics, names, descriptions, etc. are a tool that aids the writer just as a printed form aids a secretary…where as in the past he would have had to type till his wrist was sore just to fill in the most trivial of details instead of the pertinent info.
Now some people would see him as being lazy.
I see changing the names, descriptions, and characteristics that the p2p authors have to do before publishing as creativity too, not on a grand scale, but still they had to use their imagination. Look at 50 Shades…the only thing in those books that resembles anything Twilight as far as I can see is the lip-biting female lead and some would say her insecurity about her self-image smacks of Bella but really could be a thousand different characters as it's not an uncommon characteristic. That's the only things E.L. James "stole" from S.M. in the end. The story is her original plot.
Aside from E.L. James, none of these p2p or OF authors are making any significant dollars. What harm are they truly doing anyone?
Anyway, I understand why you feel the way you do after you actually took the time to explain. I do not feel the same, but thank you for explaining.

Sandra,
Okay, to be fair, no, you are not and have never been nasty. You generally are of more rational mind and yes, i was lumping people into a pile. That's not fair. So yes, I apologize. I have always read your posts and found them to be even tempered.
I find the p2p world, again, not black and white. It's definitely a moral/ethical issue people have to take up with themselves. Personally I do not buy p2p, but 99% of that is because the stories that are published are not ones i read as a fanfic and don't have much interest in otherwise. IF some of my favorites published, would I buy them? Yeah, probably. (this has yet to happen, so...)
My issues with p2p have evolved. Again, I would love for my favorite writers to go publish something original. In fact, I encourage many do to so, often. But when the publishers started slapping "From the Twilight Fanfiction..." on the covers I had to reassess things. Mostly for my personal sanity. The anger over the situation was not healthy for me. I pulled far away from the p2p GR group because everything just annoyed me so freaking much and exhausted me. I realized I had to let it go and I had to do something about it, because day after day I heard and saw and was slammed with This Book and That Book got a deal from This Publisher and That Movie and omgomgomg...I felt like I was drowning in a lake of p2p success stories yet gaining little traction myself.
And it is an absolute fact that you catch more notice with p2p than you do with original fiction.
So in the midst of all that angst is where The Merman came in. Which btw, although it sells okay, it doesn't sell GREAT, and i never expected it to sell anything. I just needed to get that story, the one story I wasn't ready to let go of, off my chest and I hated that I'd wasted it on a 10k word one-shot that barely anyone read.
I never planned on writing a second part to the book. I never planned on writing OTHER books, under the name Roxy Queen. I had ten people text me on Monday when I sent the message out. I did not tell close friends or my regular book confidants. It was something I just did more for myself than anything else. Audrey Exposed was one of the more interesting books I've ever written and publishing it caused me immense amounts of grief (for a variety of reasons). So while we're talking about The Merman/Taboo...I have moved on to so many other things.
When I made the decision I knew I was crossing lines. I knew people would be upset and I knew that I was being an absolute hypocrite. I absolutely own all of that and the fall out from it.
I do not want to lose friends over this but in the end I never lost my p2p friends anyway. I work with and talk to some of those authors every day because from our end, the writing/publishing end, we're all co-workers in the same game. That line of black and white is not only gray it's invisible.

It's lazy writing. You are using charact..."
I don't want to drag myself into too much of this conversation but holy hell. E.L. James walked into Twilight with an entire set of luggage and made off with chunks of Meyers' ideas. I don't know how familiar you are with Twilight and FSOG but compare the entire cast of characters and they're all basically the same people with new names.

It's lazy writing. You a..."
Agreed.

I still say that, only apart from the names and some of the places, the original fanfic was not much like Twilight (I have read the Twilight novels several times each). Further, by the time the book was published, VERY little of anything of Myers' existed there.
I still don't get how anything James has done makes her "moral-lacking woman" as Sandra wrote above. That is hyperbole if I ever saw it!

my rage over P2P has given way to grumbling apathy. It's been going on in the Twilight fandom for over three years, it's been done in other fandoms before, and newer fandoms are also now being exploited in much the same way. I will never knowingly buy a book that was once fanfic. That's my stand on it, no matter how much I loved the story in its fanfic incarnation. I will not pay a single dime for any fic that was regurgitated. And while I initially didn't rage as much as I did for a while (my early reviews of former fics show that), I'm no longer raging now either. There just doesn't seem to be a point anymore, and it was hurting me personally in my daily interactions with people all over the net. I'm still disappointed whenever I find one, and if my own personal measuring stick applies to a book as p2p, it will go on the group shelf, but as I said, this trend will not stop. Publishers see the demand, primarily in the romance and erotica market, and many, many Twilight fanfics and those from other, newer fandoms fit the bill. It's likely that none of them will ever recapture the success of FSoG, but it will not go away. At least, I've resigned myself to that fact.
What burns me, and what really disappointed me, was your deception. I don't know if my view of you can recover from that. And I understand completely that it probably doesn't matter to you either way. I'm just one negative voice in a sea of supporters. I get it, I do.
Thanks for engaging in this conversation.

I still say that, only apart from t..."
My opinion of EL James was formed over time, based on my own observations. You do not get to question my opinion of her, just as you don't get to question my opinion on anyone else. That is MY opinion, and mine alone. Whether you understand how I reached the conclusion that, in my opinion, she lacks morals and integrity, does not affect my fucking opinion. I'm done explaining myself. There is no point in trying to convince me that your opinion is the right one, just as there's no point in me trying to do the same for you.
The end.
ETA: edited for typo.
ETA2: look up hyperbole in a dictionary.

Amen, sistah.

I still say that, o..."
You seem to have a lot of rage bubbling under the surface. I do indeed get to question your opinions, and seek to understand them, and you get to refuse to help me out in understanding if you wish and to dislike my questioning.
See, your terms: "regurgitated" "exploited" and such…as well as the way you use them, are the very definition of hyperbole as I read the term in the dictionary. So I think I had the right word.
However, you are exactly right in that you have the right to express your views and the right to not change your mind or stance.

See, I understand your differing opinion. I understand how one could reach the conclusion that there is nothing wrong with P2P, that anyone who wrote fanfic and put their time in should be allowed to make money off it. I understand how someone like Angel could be utterly frustrated at the lack of sales for OF when everyone and their grandmother is just re-publishing fanfic with character names changed. I understand how it seems easy to just slap a new coat of paint on a POS and call it OF.
I have engaged in these exact discussions for three plus years. I've been listening and reading varying opinions, I've been trying to understand where these differing opinions originate, and how people came to their conclusions.
You, on the other hand, have your opinion, which doesn't coincide with mine, so instead of seeking to actually understand how I arrived at mine, you seek only to prove your superiority by announcing that I (and others who have opinions similar to mine) have it all wrong.
To that, I say: Fuck you. Take a lesson from what you aim to preach.
Have a nice day. I'm done here.

You proved my observation about that rage of yours correct, certainly.
It is outside the perimeters of "constructive observations and debate" to issue a pert "f*ck you" and flounce. With the addition, of course, of announcing that you are going to flounce.
Three years worth of debate on any topic seems an awful waste of time and energy that could be spent on more positive pursuits. Unless it's one that - if hammered on enough - could quantifiably change lives or the world at large for the better.
That,I could really get behind.


And now your true character and maturity level is revealed.
Just another petty internet bully.
Credibility: zero.
And what happened to you being "done here"?

Just another petty internet bully.
Credibility: zero.
And what happened to you being "done here"?"
I recognize your type. The Stealth Bully. You jump into stuff you don't know much about, shake the trees, then try to act justified after the fallout. And you think this lends you more credibility than someone passionate about their opinions? Pfft. Six of one half a dozen of the other.

There are lots of things in this world that happen because "it always has" or because "a precedent has been set" but that doesn't a) automatically make it okay/morally right or b) mean others who disagree should just shut up.

And now your true character and maturity level is revealed.
Just another petty internet bully.
Credibility: zero.
And what happened to you being "done here"?"
You know exactly ZERO about my true character. So one more time, FUCK OFF!

Just another petty internet bully.
Credibility: zero.
And what happened to you being "done here"?"
I recognize your type. The Stealth Bully. You jump into stuff you don't know much about, shake the trees, then try to act justified after the fallout. And you think this lends you more credibility than someone passionate about their opinions? Pfft. Six of one half a dozen of the other."
Precisely. Add to that "pretending to be interested in other people's reasoning".

I recognize your t…"
I know a lot about this issue. If I was shaking the tree, as you put it, I would have used more antagonizing language and/or profanity such as "Sandra" used.
Yes. I think a rational discussing vs. a quick cuss-out does lend someone more credibility. You are free to disagree.

No, I don't think I will "f*ck off".
And I choose to believe a person when they are showing me by their actions who they are.
Just because I didn't concur with your reasoning doesn't mean I wasn't interested in hearing it.
And you're STILL not "done here" I see.

Based on your conduct here, it is my rational judgment that engaging with you in any kind of discussion is a waste of time, time I could spend more productively by fostering those issues that are dear to me. Your continued education on this subject is not one of those issues.
So you can take your high horse and ride out of town. And take that image with you to remind you what I think of your rational discussion.
ETA: I also don't know why you felt the need to put my name in quotes. Take your pretensions elsewhere.

I stand by my assessment.

yay! let me know what you think!

Jena I wish I could copy your words and used them often because I have seen many people who are anti-p2p use this very same method and then step out and call people bullies for disagreeing with them.
Angel - I applaud your choice to step forward and "come clean". I know the decision must have been a brutal one and I will just sit back and admire the balls it took to do it. I am glad you have found a measure of success in doing something that you love.