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Hi Jay,"Is it wrong or unethical to experience erotic joy and pleasure when receiving or giving pain, humiliation, etc-- if the other party feels the same way as you do and desires it as well?"
I'm pretty sure that having a partner who shares your proclivities doesn't really change the rightness or wrongness of anything. But it's nice to have company. I notice you're something of a reader, so if you have time, check out Gilles Deleuze's Masochism: Coldness and Cruelty & Venus in Furs
What I found interesting about the book is that it underscored my own experience that sadists and masochists are not the neatly paired erotic opposites that they have traditionally been viewed as. And this accords very well with Lacan's argument that the fantasies that give substance to our desire are almost entirely unique to each person, and that true erotic alignments almost impossible without love.
"Do we derive joy from receiving and or giving pain simply because it's "taboo", "wrong" or "unethical"? "
I'm relatively convinced that, from everything I've read, the tabooness or wrongness of the act plays a significant role in the eroticism of inflicting pain. Whether that is the case for receiving it is a slightly different question. I know that some people derive concrete physical pleasure from feeling pain. Their brains interpret the stimulus differently. For them, I guess it's purely a physical reaction. But for others, I gather, taboo plays a very large part.
Two interesting writers on this issue are Georges Batailles ( Erotism: Death and Sensuality and, specifically on the interesting paradox of transgression, Michel Foucault, ( A Preface to Transgression in Language, Counter-Memory, Practice: Selected Essays and Interviews)
I don't have time at the moment to comment sufficiently and adequately. I just wanted to say, thank you for the quick response and taking the time to suggest different books, writers and essays. It's exactly what I needed, it would have taken me a week at least to narrow down specific, quality, artistic literature based on the subjects talked about.
You have malleable, articulate and progressive mind-- but more importantly, a liberated mind.
I will respond as soon as I've looked through and read the links to the authors and literature you have provided.
I hope to have many conversations with you in the future. I'm contemplating on possibly writing erotic literature at some point in the future. And after going through your profile and reading some of your essays, your just the caliber, liberated, imaginative and unwavering authentic writer and person I would love to have the opportunity to get to know and learn from.
Multiple thank you's for such a great response to my question.
P.s. I have no schooling really to speak of outside of high school, so I apologize in advance for the plethora of syntax errors that will abound in my messages... I hope your able to see the substance and depth of my messages through the unforgiving web of syntax error's.
Gary wrote: "P.s. I have no schooling really to speak of outside of high school, so I apologize in advance for the plethora of syntax errors that will abound in my messages... I hope your able to see the substa..."You seem perfectly literate to me.
"Remittance wrote: "What I found interesting about the book is that it underscored my own experience that sadists and masochists are not the neatly paired erotic opposites that they have traditionally been viewed as. And this accords very well with Lacan's argument that the fantasies that give substance to our desire are almost entirely unique to each person, and that true erotic alignments almost impossible without love."Not to sound vain, (which I can be full of myself from time to time), but I have always looked at the world in general through the same lens as what you said in that comment. Nothing is neatly paired in life, there is always some sort of variation, even if it be minute and microscopic in it's differences, nevertheless they are not the EXACT, same. And it would naturally carry over into any human being and their relationships with other people, whether it's sexual in nature, platonic, or just friendship-- the amount of variables each human being brings to the table in those relationships is vast and limitless in it's scope. So it stands to reason that a Dom/Sub relationship will be a mixed variable of what each person is. No human being is 100% male or 100% female, just as there is no human being 100% dominant, and 100% submissive. Just within the imagination alone are a profound amount of variables at play, and it's mathematically impossible for two human beings to ever see the world exactly the same way, or practice the art of Domination and Submission, Sadism and Masochism the exact same way--. Nothing black and white about life, and nothing black and white about BDSM or the primal desires of the animal we call, human beings. Everything is grey, everything. An odd, obscure and abstract perspective I supposes. But I really believe this to be true.
And love is the key to connection, whether it be a sister and brother friendship, or a Dom/Sub relationship-- without love at some level and degree, the human being is just going through the motions, much like a person who loathes their job goes through the motions of work. We want love, because it makes us feel alive, and the antithesis of love is, emptiness, "death" if you will.
Side note: I feel like a cheap side chair philosophical hack trying to debate and have intelligent conversation with you. Kind of out of my league perhaps?...
Yes, I think it is. It is incredibly hard to consistently practice the high degree of empathy necessary without it. Love destabilizes the integrity of the subjective armor we need to survive in the everyday world. Which is why it can be both wonderful and terrifying.Side note: I feel pretty much the same.
Remittance wrote: Love destabilizes the integrity of the subjective armor we need to survive in the everyday world.I can remember many a time when I felt jaded or bitter, and a small act of love from someone, (kind word, hand on shoulder, a smile) would cause that jadedness and bitterness to crumble to the ground in one fell swoop. So well said. I enjoy reading your comments, they are so acute and insightful.
To be so bold, yet so humble all in the same breath, is somewhat of a rare feat and occurrence within the human condition. So refreshing you are Remittance girl.



I have one question to ask,
Is it wrong or unethical to experience erotic joy and pleasure when receiving or giving pain, humiliation, etc-- if the other party feels the same way as you do and desires it as well?
Do we derive joy from receiving and or giving pain simply because it's "taboo", "wrong" or "unethical"?
Thank you, Jay.