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Julio
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Apr 05, 2014 11:24PM
I, the Vicomte Julio LeGutbucket DeBronx-Saint Domengue, hereby affirm my approval of this blog post by affixing my seal (Enormous Cock Device With Spurting Fluid Starburst Pattern) upon the above Like button.
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Fat, Author-Pretending Satan [FAPS] wrote: "I, the Vicomte Julio LeGutbucket DeBronx-Saint Domengue, hereby affirm my approval of this blog post by affixing my seal (Enormous Cock Device With Spurting Fluid Starburst Pattern) upon the above ..."I could ask for no greater, or more disturbing, endorsement.
Unfortunately, my endorsement will not be as... creepy as the longe-named Vicomte but I'll say that the reasons you stated as necessary regarding accuracy are the very ones that make me LOVE to read good historicals, of any time period.I know research for many isn't fun, but when it's historical research, that's almost as fun as then using what you find when writing.
Hey LeGutbucket, got bacon?
This is interesting.I'm not clued up enough to be that concerned with accuracy, but a modern seeming word or more, some modern phrasing, can really throw me from the story.
I've read books where I've not been able to set the decade because the facts don't seem to correlate. Electric points, tv, indoor plumbing, phones... Even modern novels can be dated with a VHS tape.
I tend to stay away from historical romance MM for this very reason (historical inaccuracy) -- not that it was impossible for a homosexual relationship to carry on happily -- but I highly doubt it was as easy as some authors make it out to be. Even in the best situation, there's a (high) degree of dishonesty that was imperative for a person's survival (homosexuality being illegal in Britain until 1967--uh, which you probably already know--please excuse any speechifying). My modern brain finds that necessary pretense to be depressing as hell. (And, of course, there's still many parts of the world where this pretense is still very necessary. That's also depressing as hell.)
When I do read historical MM, I like the fantasy stuff like Megan Derr's Regency-esque series. I find it more believable. (Still haven't read the Magpie Lord, though it's sitting prettily on my Kindle.)
Anyway, I do have a history degree, which is fairly useless except for impressing strangers with weird facts & getting annoyed over obvious historical inaccuracy. Getting titles wrong is SHEER EFFING LAZINESS. Ahem.
My favorite MM historicals are The Gentleman and the Rogue (though I do wonder at Jem's easy acceptance of his homosexuality) and Dulce et Decorum Est. The latter is especially fantastic.
ebausten (Rosa, really) wrote: "I tend to stay away from historical romance MM for this very reason (historical inaccuracy) -- not that it was impossible for a homosexual relationship to carry on happily -- but I highly doubt it ..."This is a very interesting question, because while I agree that some books do glide over difficulties in a fast and loose way, there's some fascinating research going on that suggests that homosexuality wasn't necessarily the total unmentionable we might believe. Which doesn't imply that life was a paradise of acceptance, more that it does seem that people sometimes just shrugged their shoulders and let their neighbours get on with it, certainly didn't seek to have them killed for it. It's impossible to tell, except that we can be sure that, as with all crimes, the prosecutions don't really reflect the number of people actually doing the thing.
That said, when the book ends with the entire country house full of family and friends including servants applauding the happy couple or whatever, I do have a powerful urge to ask, why did you bother writing it as historical?
You might try The Reluctant Berserker or Brothers of the Wild North Sea? They go so much further back into completely different times, and I found them both fascinating as well as wonderful romances.
K.J. wrote: "ebausten (Rosa, really) wrote: "I tend to stay away from historical romance MM for this very reason (historical inaccuracy) -- not that it was impossible for a homosexual relationship to carry on h..."Yeah, I was more referring my annoyance over the "entire country house" scenario, not a situation where someone was "reported" (if it even worked that way) & then hung for his crimes.
What I find depressing about it is that for most people, not all, the best you could expect as far as acceptance was "I'll accept that he's your roommate/flatmate or just a "very close friend" as long as we never have to discuss your homosexual leanings." (Still a popular attitude today.)
I didn't mean to say that they necessarily feared being killed for their orientation, but that even with close friends & family, there may have been a fear of exposure (public exposure) that required some sort of (however loose) pretense. Or maybe, instead of fear, an acknowledgement that a pretense was necessary if not for survival, but for the continuation of whatever type of relationship they may have had. (Yeah, that's more like what I meant to say. :))
(I want to mention Oscar Wilde, but I really don't know enough about him to use him as an example.)
On the other hand, I'm also annoyed (not out loud, just in my head) with people for thinking that what we may call "open-mindedness," or sex for the joy of sex, didn't develop until the 1960s or 70s. I feel like telling them to read I, Claudius (or see the movie) and then get back to me.
(And then I tell myself to stop being such a judgmental asshat.)
There' a subplot in the Inspector Troy series, it's either the 1st or the 4th book, that deals with a government agent's fear of exposure. That's a really great series for historical accuracy (and good thriller/mysteries).:)
Oh, yeah, completely--that's talked about in the book I just mentioned. That "that type of behavior" was acceptable in public school, but it was "in bad taste" to continue it into adulthood. Interesting.
On the topic of public schools, during the debate on the Labouchere amendment, which criminalised all homosexual activity, one of the MPs actually said that it would render pretty much the entire House of Parliament criminal - referring to what they'd all done in their single sex education.
That's right. It was an amendment to the new Sexual Offences act which raised the age of consent and was meant to protect women and girls from being forced into prostitution, but God forfend you could have a good law about sexual behaviour without someone coming in and ruining it. Labouchere proposed it at the last minute, it was barely debated in the House at all, it made all forms of male homosexual activity much more punishable (since the sodomy penalties were so harsh that juries wouldn't convict) and it also allowed for prosecutions for conspiracy and homosexual intent - basically, thoughtcrime. It's the law under which they prosecuted Alan Turing. Frankly, if I had the opportunity to give someone from history a really good kicking, Labouchere would be up there on the list.
I saw something on the news about Alan Turing a few weeks ago & Julio (FAPS rather) mentioned him in his review of Pressure Head. Before that I don't remember hearing anything about him. So, yeah, I'd back you in an ass kicking, KJ.
i haz homosexual intent. i wish to travel back in time with kj and intently homosexualize ladouchere in the face.
Oh, thank you for writing this! So true. I recently read a book with a conversation like this on the first page:
"Jennifer, you heard your mother, girl. Sit your ass down before I sit it down for you."
Followed by narrative notes saying, "Awesome! Just fan-fucking-tastic. Just who in the hell did he think he was talking to her like that."
It was set in Jamestown, Virginia in 1625!
Sorry about the language, but if it hadn't been so amusingly, eye-catchingly wrong I never would have made it through the book. I feel hugely vindicated to know I'm not the only one's bothered by this sort of thing.
Haven't been on Goodreads long but this is my favorite conversation ever ever.Back to historical inaccuracies, has anyone seen the Sherlock Holmes movie with Basil Rathbone -- can't remember the title -- that takes place in the late 19th c but features Nazis? That's the kind of anachronism that's done so boldly I think it's awesome. Of course, if it was in a book Id hate it.
Fat, Author-Pretending Satan [FAPS] wrote: "<----- 14yo and bitter also"To paraphrase: if you've got something bitter to say, come sit next to me.;)
Fat, Author-Pretending Satan [FAPS] wrote: "ow. satire, surely. but still—ow."Don't think so. In the 40s they were sticking Nazis in everything. Everbody enjoyed watching Nazis gettin' whooped.
ebausten (Rosa, really) wrote: "I saw something on the news about Alan Turing a few weeks ago & Julio (FAPS rather) mentioned him in his review of Pressure Head. Before that I don't remember hearing anything abou..."Re Alan Turing, take a look at what Aldous Mercer did with hisThe Prince and the Program. No historical accuracy necessary in this as it is a fantasy.
Fat, Author-Pretending Satan [FAPS] wrote: "I thought that book was fantastic. legit-legit wonderful."ditto
Sofia wrote: "ebausten (Rosa, really) wrote: "I saw something on the news about Alan Turing a few weeks ago & Julio (FAPS rather) mentioned him in his review of Pressure Head. Before that I don'..."Yeah, I've heard a lot of good things about the author & the book (I do have his Royce Ree Omnibus (The Emperor's New Clothes), Volume 1). Thanks for the rec!
ebausten (Rosa, really) wrote: "Sofia wrote: "ebausten (Rosa, really) wrote: "Yeah, I've heard a lot of good things about the author & the book (I do have his Royce Ree Omnibus (The Emperor's New Clothes), Volume 1). Thanks for the rec! "Please do read Royce, I loved it, it's different, good, intelligent, funny ........ (better stop Sofia)
Excellent post. I know that there are some readers who don't care about twisting historical facts and just want a good story (although IMO historically inaccurate author Philippa Gregory can't tell a good story), other readers do care. And why I find reviews pointing these things out so helpful.A couple of recent spottings of using the word before its time: boondoggle during Richard I's crusade and the peanut gallery in a regency. I'm more forgiving with books published pre-internet, but these days there's no excuse. Like the Victorian era book that had her characters rummaging through a box of artifacts marked Czar Nicholas II.
In Georgette Heyer's biography, a good portion of the book is dedicated to the great amount of research she did, she kept numerous notebooks re clothing, language (including cant used), events, etc, all cross referenced. All of this handwritten of course.The Private World of Georgette Heyer
Love Georgette Heyer. Though I'm slightly ashamed that the book that she considered her final masterpiece, I think I read that some place, My Lord John, bores me. And I've never managed to read--the book with Waterloo? Can't remember the title.
ebausten (Rosa, really) wrote: "Love Georgette Heyer. Though I'm slightly ashamed that the book that she considered her final masterpiece, I think I read that some place, My Lord John, bores me. And I've never manag..."I could not manage Long John either, but I love The Spanish Bride (don't know how many times I read this) and read the last of the Alistair Trilogy as well An Infamous Army(read once only)
May I be so bold as to recommend Restraint?Not OKhomo, methinks historically accurate, includes some interesting details of life of that time that are no longer in use.
Sofia wrote: "ebausten (Rosa, really) wrote: "Love Georgette Heyer. Though I'm slightly ashamed that the book that she considered her final masterpiece, I think I read that some place, My Lord John..."Oh, right, An Infamous Army. I think my problem with that book was that I really didn't like Lady Barbra. She was very Scarlett O'Hara. But I know other readers who really respect her historical accuracy re Waterloo.
Jerry wrote: "May I be so bold as to recommend Restraint?
Not OKhomo, methinks historically accurate, includes some interesting details of life of that time that are no longer in use."
Okhomo is funny. And Restraint looks good.
Aaaand one more thing to add: both Burr and Lincoln by Gore Vidal are really good. Vidal had a different take on historical figures & periods that I really enjoy. For instance, he portrays Lincoln as not an absolute hero, or a poor president who got the US involved in a war over something (slavery) that was ending naturally, but as the perfect politician. Able to be different things to different people.
I am a hopeless Heyer addict but I also can't stomach the uber historical ones. My Lord John and Simon the Coldheart are both lethal, and I hate An Infamous Army with a passion, although mostly because of the way Avon and Leonie are dead and forgotten. NO. THAT MAY NOT BE.Apparently in her later books Heyer would make up just one phrase of her own so she could identify who was plagiarising her rather than doing their own research. Like a barium meal. We used to do that when I worked in travel guides: other publishers were constantly, ah, publishing text with a strong resemblance to our justly famous art and architecture sections, so the authors would put in made-up quotes from non-existent poets and see who quoted them. Happy days.
I love Vidal almost as much as I love Monseigneur and I did not like seeing him in Infamous Army. It's too much they will remain forever 'young' in my heart.Simon the Coldheart I only got a chapter in I'm afraid. I also never managed Royal Escape.
Vidal old? What about Mary? No, I don't want to know. Monseigneur dead? That's just wrong.Yes, all those books mentioned are the ones I just couldn't get through. I think I managed Simon the Coldheart though. And Royal Escape just pissed me off because the 1970s cover I have CLEARLY INFERS A ROMANCE. Please excuse my yelling. :)
Heyer's one of the few authors I own entirely in paperback. I love those cheesy covers from the 1960s & 70s. Like this.
KJ -- I've never heard that about Heyer. I wonder what she'd think about all the Regency romance authors that are still popular today. Like Mary Balogh & Carla Kelly... or Barbara Cartland, though they were publishing at the same time, I think.
I've read and liked a few Heyer, wasn't aware she did so much research though it makes sense. Interesting about the injected word/phrase.Tamara Allen writes good m/m historicals that give a feel for times.
Mergan Derr's regency are all alternative reality where m/m relations are aceptable and the norm, I understand the reasoning of wanting fiction to be about good things not the uglyness of prosecution, but I don't consider them historical fiction. Some are cute stories though.
Meep wrote: "Mergan Derr's regency are all alternative reality where m/m relations are aceptable and the norm, I understand the reasoning of wanting fiction to be about good things not the uglyness of prosecution, but I don't consider them historical fiction. Some are cute stories though. "Agreed, they are au & shouldn't be taken as examples of historical accuracy. But I like that they give me a little taste of the Regency era.
Jeez, where did you see that? I think I'd almost have to read it. :)I haven't read this book - Heart To Hart - but I think it's interesting that it's described on Amazon as "Nostalgic Contemporary" (takes place in Ireland in the 1920s.) Which I think means some attitudes are "softened" maybe? Like the author/publisher is using that tag to warn readers not to read it if they're looking for strict historical accuracy?
Lou wrote: "Fantasy, paranormal, and AU often bleed into each other. I tend to dislike books where the author blends historical and modern elements for convenience. Like regency era with telephones."Was it supposed to be Steampunk? Otherwise - Huh?
Steampunk gives leyway for merging period details with modern/creative technologies.
Regency with telephones sounds bad. I kind of want to read it! Shows modern attitudes too. In the 'good old days' when I was little, mobile phones were a novelty not a necessity, now it seems phones get everywhere, even regency period ;)
I write historical specifically *because* I hate mobile phones! God-awful highly convenient plot-ruining pieces of modern crap. A Regency with mobile phones is my worst nightmare. All that research with none of the plot convenience.
K.J. wrote: "I write historical specifically *because* I hate mobile phones! God-awful highly convenient plot-ruining pieces of modern crap. A Regency with mobile phones is my worst nightmare. All that research..."You would have to bin a lot of plot twists :D
I admit I care less about authenticity than I do about getting a plain old good story. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate when authors go the extra mile and then some and really know their stuff (you can ALWAYS tell,) but too too often it feels like they're most interested in showing off their learnings rather than serving the story.I have heard tell of a m/m historical romance where two men in the 1800s fall in love and get married. Openly. In a church. I've seen it mocked, and I'm sure it's every bit as bad as people say it is. But I think that somewhere in the world, there are at least a few writers who could write a story like that and the hell of it is that in their hands it'd be GOOD. I'd know it wasn't realistic, of course, but in the moment I could buy into it. I think. And if that's the story a writer's moved to tell, then I think they should take their shot, even if generally it will end up being mockable.
All romance novels ARE fantasy to me - contemporary, historical, whatever, I'm not in it for the realism - which is probably why I find it easy (...ish) to forgive mistakes as long as I love the story. (And I do have to LOVE it. Otherwise, I will probably get knocked out of the story and I might even make fun of it after and those are the chances an author takes when deciding their medieval heroes should microwave their dinner. Or whatever liberties they've decided to take.) And I especially will accept inaccuracy if it will get the characters to a HEA I can believe in. Oh, Lord, yes, will I ever.
*slinks out before she gets pelted with rotten produce*
No pelting here :) I agree with you that it's much easier to ignore historical inaccuracies in a good story. Or not notice them at all. A good author can make you believe almost anything.Right now I'm listening to The Back Passage. It's takes place in the 1920s but I couldn't care less about historical inaccuracies -- it's erotica (or erotica ++ -- there is a ton of sex).


