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Steelwhisper wrote: "Are you saying that for something to be erotic (defined as "a quality that causes sexual feelings") it has to be transgressive? "Well, we come down to a definition of 'erotic' and what makes it different from something that's simply sexually stimulating, that just fires up the drive. And so yes, I do make a distinction between those states of mind.
The word erotic gets bandied about a lot, and it has always been used for everything from Bernini's sculpture of St. Teresa to a photograph of a nicely shaped woman in a bikini, or a pair of high heels. In the past, I've written a lot of posts on what I mean when I use the word. I'm taking my definition from Bataille, Foucault and Barthes. This probably isn't the best place to restate it.
Nonetheless, yes, I do think that, in order for something to be erotic (as opposed to sexual or sexy) it needs to be transgressive. But, as you point out, you don't feel that BDSM is transgressive, so then... why would it be erotic to you?
And agreed, not everything that is 'beyond the pale' is erotic to everyone. Robert Stoller has written very well on this subject. Eroticism involves a tension between desire and disgust. If it tilts your disgust meter too radically, then that overshadows the desire, and it's not erotic to you.
So, two things come to mind for me. One is that eroticism depends very strongly on an individual's definition of transgression. And that this is going to be intensely personal and interior. So, the idea of being hit by a man might seem personally transgressive to me, because in my internal universe, good feminists don't let men do that. And so, from a writing perspective, it requires that I develop a character and pull you into their heads enough that, you believe, in that character's constellation of personal ethics and/or morality, they are venturing past their own personal lines. And you, as a reader, can be tempted to identify with them.
The other is that our contemporary society doesn't really think there's anything taboo about BDSM. It's all over the net. So, here we have a case of people wanting to believe they're edgy for indulging, when there's nothing all that transgressive about it. If there was, it would be illegal and societies would block it, ban it and radically restrict access to anything that represented it.
However, I do believe that contemporary culture places an extremely high valuation on certain things: wealth, beauty, individual and autonomous agency, excessive consumption... and that it might be possible, by simply pursuing their opposites and sexualizing them, that new transgressions might be explored.
It's why I think, for instance, Mike Kimera's story 'Fucking Ugly' is so powerful and erotic.
As to your last para. I think that 'satisfaction' is probably a problematic word. If you believe, in the depth of your heart, that torturing someone is right, then I think you might feel a sense of accomplishment, and of completion of one's duty to do it. But it's not going to give you any erotic pleasure. But I disagree on the topic of sadism and masochism. They are, by definition, erotically motivated. The words masochist and sadist get bandied around a lot, but the origins of both terms refer specifically to experiencing erotic pleasure at either causing plain or receiving it. However, Deleuze has written very well on the topic, and pointed out that sadists and masochists aren't a paired match. There are masochists who simply get pleasure from pain - who are wired differently, so to speak. There are other masochists who don't experience pain as pleasure at all, but are erotically stimulated by the idea of sacrificing their pain up. That pleasure is coming from a state of mind, not a state of the nerves. They know that allowing someone to hurt them is not good for them, not healthy, not in line with the instinct to self-protect. And it is the breaching of those lines that is erotic. Similarly, I have heard a number of sadists say they don't think there is anything morally or ethically wrong with hurting anyone who consents to being hurt, but quite frankly, I don't believe it. If they don't acknowledge that, in the general order of things, inflicting pain is wrong, then they're sociopaths, not sadists.
Heh. You just told me in so many words that I'm a sociopath ;) Not a first either, as things go. Many tend to call sadists sociopaths...Writing currently, so the answer will have to come tomorrow. In the meantime I think I need to read up on your definition of "erotic", because mine appears to be fundamentally different. Could you please point me at some of the articles you mention above per link? I doubt I'd find them readily else.
ETA: And above I used the generalised definition you can find in an encyclopaedia or on Wikipedia.
Steelwhisper wrote: "Heh. You just told me in so many words that I'm a sociopath ;) Not a first either, as things go. Many tend to call sadists sociopaths...Writing currently, so the answer will have to come tomorrow..."
Well, I didn't tell YOU that you were anything. But if you do get sexual pleasure inflicting pain on others and, in no part of your ethical universe does that tweak any problems with conscience, I'd suggest you are either repressing them in order to allow yourself to enjoy what you enjoy, or you are amoral and have a complete lack of empathy.
It's an interesting paradox that the majority of 'sadists' I've know were intensely empathetic. And not surprisingly. How can you get off on someone's pain if you don't have the empathy to understand what they're experiencing. However, I have met a lot of 'sadists' who insist they don't believe they're doing anything wrong. I'd venture to guess that a lot of them were simply repressing their sense of shame at enjoying it.
Then, very rarely, I've met what I would call radical ethical sadists. They acknowledge what turns them on is fundamentally inhumane. They do it anyway, and they take responsibility for the fact that they are transgressing their own ethical boundaries.
I find them the most erotic men in the world. That takes courage and balls to live with that.
Regarding your definitions from wikipedia. The origin of the term sadism comes from the writings of the Marquis de Sade, whose writing involved torture, degradation and sexual pleasure all at the same time. The word masochism comes from the the name of Leopold Sacher-Masoch, who wrote 'Venus in Furs'. Again, the experiencing of pain and humiliation in the novel is completely intertwined with sexual arousal. I'd give wikipedia a miss on these subjects.
My draft chapter on eroticism, which also gives references for my sources is here: http://www.remittancegirl.org/2013/05...
I'm not sure whether you are aware of this, I'm female and I (sadistically) engage with both men and women ;) Just stating this, as apparently not everyone can see my gender on my profile for some reason.But no, as long as I have a consenting partner I experience absolutely no shame for causing them pain. Then again, it's not just causing pain either. But, as said above, I'm writing as we speak ;) I'm quite sure, though, that the sadists you refer to were not repressing anything, nor ashamed, nor lying. Also, don't make yourself a head, I didn't take offence. It's such a standard reaction whenever I state that I'm a sadist, that I'd do nothing but that else. Which would be very boring.
There are quite different definitions around regarding what constitutes sadism (or masochism), which do not necessarily include a link to sexual arousal. If I were to quantify my personal kink, then I'd say that for less than 25% of it there's a link to anything sexual. Sadists are notorious for placing "sex" further down on the scale of importance compared to other flavours of the BDSM spectrum.
I would love to pursue this discussion further, as I find it fascinating and it touches fields I've been turning over in my head for a while now (being often intensely dissatisfied with erotic fiction).
However, please give me the opportunity of catching up on your definitions (links please?), I'd like reading up on them some time tomorrow. It might be as simple as a difference of the practical vs. the theoretical. Or mind and matter. Or something fundamentally different. I'd love exploring this.
Hi,I didn't really have any fixed gender in my mind when I replied to you.
I certainly don't believe that all sadists or masochists are sociopaths. But I am suspicious of anyone who doesn't recognize any moral or ethical dilemma in deriving pleasure from causing someone else pain, regardless of consent.
And indeed, most sadists and masochists place 'sex' low on their list of derived pleasures. And that is really at the core of my distinction between eroticism and sexuality.
As far as definitions go, I've found that lately one can take words and make them mean anything people find them useful to mean. Including 'kink' it seems. But I stick to my OED and am cognizant of word origin. I'm a writer, so I feel the need to be faithful to that.
I did leave a link up at the bottom of my last comment. And, yes, I agree with you, most erotica these days leaves me dead cold.
But I am suspicious of anyone who doesn't recognize any moral or ethical dilemma in deriving pleasure from causing someone else pain,regardless of consent.Here's the clincher. Consent is what makes the difference, and in more than just one aspect. That a lot of sadists place sex low on their list of needs and motives is not due a difference between what is erotic and what is sexual. At least I can affirm that for myself, and a few good sadist friends with whom I discussed this in the past.
Just saw your link (sorry, a bit of a tunnel-vision here, juggling Word and Firefox) and will read later! I'm not interested in twisting words either, I need to understand meanings ;) That's why I need your definition to compare to mine and go from there. Else we'd be talking past each other.
Regarding sadism--are you aware that asexual people can be just as much into BDSM and/or sadomasochism as allosexual people? That's just one facet of the non-sexual side of it, and it's even made it by now into clinical definitions.
Steelwhisper wrote: "re you aware that asexual people can be just as much into BDSM and/or sadomasochism as allosexual people? That's just one facet of the non-sexual side of it, and it's even made it by now into clinical definitions."I assume there are variations and outliers in every human population. However, being a devout devotee in the pursuit of jouissance, they simply hold no interest for me at all.
Regarding the consent issue... consent of the other is an external issue. A person may consent to me eating them, that doesn't mean I'd feel ethically entitled to do it.



I'm interested because I'm tackling this from the opposite end these past years. I have very few taboos. Almost nothing is "transgressive" for me for a variety of reasons, not nudity, not vulgarity, not BDSM. As a consequence of that, erotic literature which plays on the taboo nature of certain behaviour or acts is indeed boring/unerotic. Depending on the subject it may be turning me off, even, as it reaches me in a completely different manner than intended.
Unfortunately the majority of erotic fiction and erotica concentrate on the transgressive nature of certain sexual acts (as they are for still many people) to achieve eroticism, which leaves me with almost no reading matter which stimulates me sexually.
As the taboos I've left are not erotically charged for me (e.g. sex with children or murder), that would--in consequence of your posit--mean that I can't be erotically stimulated by reading matter, which I know to be untrue.
It's not the transgression which turns me on, yet I think it is similar to what you state: the emotional cost of the characters' sexuality. That's what I want to partake in, and what turns me on. However, unlike what you stated, I don't care whether it is a positive or a negative emotion (or cost), as long as I can be "the fly on the wall".
As to the satisfaction of torturing someone: it exists even if you know you are very sure you are not doing something wrong, regardless by the way for what purpose. Sadism (and masochism) is not necessarily sexually motivated.