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Kat
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Sep 24, 2013 07:55AM
Just popping by to say..thanks so much for this post Leah!
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Just when I think it can't get even better. Didn't know GR was Amazon's site.I hate when they try to manipulate with us :/ Why even allow reviews? Just ban the reviews, ban one-two-three stars ... Let us have only four-five stars. Just make everything nice for the authors. Why even bother for the readers, it isn't like we read the books, like we pay for them.
And to think that I was actually starting to like this site :(
Sorry for my English ~ I just had to write somewhere something that I care for GR
I hope they read your post here Leah :) Beautifully written.
Amazon's boss hit his head or something probably. Can't believe he is doing this. And he probably won't stop at this.
One of the latest comments on the original announcement says this:
Can we have a favorite author shelf? Like anything written by Roald Dahl I love so can I have a "Favorite-Author" shelf or is that against the new policy? I am renaming and deleting some old shelves and would like to know if this shelf name is okay.
Well done GR. You have reduced some of your readers to the state of mind of terrified children asking for permission to do something that is transparently harmless.
Can we have a favorite author shelf? Like anything written by Roald Dahl I love so can I have a "Favorite-Author" shelf or is that against the new policy? I am renaming and deleting some old shelves and would like to know if this shelf name is okay.
Well done GR. You have reduced some of your readers to the state of mind of terrified children asking for permission to do something that is transparently harmless.
I have emailed them over and over again. i have tweeted the. i have face booked them..NO response for clarification.... this is turning into amazon...
does anyone remember when amazon tried to get rid of
'fake' reviews and then hundreds of real ones were deleted? last yr or the yr before? they dont exactly have the best history with this.
Well. Im thinking the inclusive pro nouns are justified in another way. According to the list of comments, there are many who would be quite pleased to be represented by your inclusive pro nouns in such a well written expression of our own feelings towards the new policy, myself included.
a huge amount of conflict is happening over at washington post http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/c.... isn't it being purchased by the CEO of amazon.com?! cleanup effort? or just poor reporting?
Leah wrote: "Randolph wrote: "A lot of you are talking to the wrong people. GR doesn't care about you unless you are an author. You need to be bombarding Amazon and boycotting Amazon. GR is just a subsidiary..."Awesome, as it should be, IMO!
Thank you for sharing, Leah.
I agree. Authors are free to write what they choose, I am free to buy it or not, like it or not and since I work HARD for my money, I also choose not to spend it in support of an author who supports causes and ideologies that conflict with my values.Well said Leah!! I left Amazon because my opinions were discounted and attacked. I say again my opinions - we are each entitled to our opinion and here they could be expressed without personal attacks.
Goodreads was fine before & should go back to the way it was.
After reading that --I'm curious enough to check the library for the OP's books. I read Emily May's reviews and come to GoodReads for the diverse opinions/reviews/discussions about any book.
GoodReads would totally suck if it started deleting posts/reviews as the OP describes !
Jenny wrote: I left Amazon because my opinions were discounted and attacked.
Me too. Woe betide anyone who criticises a book by Tolkien on Amazon.
Me too. Woe betide anyone who criticises a book by Tolkien on Amazon.
Robynn, I have had a couple of problems with authors labeling me as a bully on their blogs (as well as the site that shall not be named). Though if you looked at any of my reviews it would be immediately obvious that this is not the case.
I had shelved these books as Author Rude to Readers. I did not rate the books, but I did put a brief comment as to how they were rude. Out of my 1100 some odd books, this shelf had about 30 books on it. I agree with you that if authors cannot take criticism they shouldn't be authors. But what should be is not what IS.
So do you think it's fair that these authors can say whatever they want about me with no proof on their blogs which are copied here to GR? Do you think it's fair to reviewers and readers to give them no outlet to defend themselves? Do you think it's fair that GR is denying me the right to shelve my books in whatever way I want to, to remind myself of the bad behavior of these few authors?
I don't.
Also, I find your analogies to be faulty. Cars and refrigerators are often built by teams of people whom we know nothing about. If you found out the builder of your automobile was severely homophobic and hated gays with all of his being, would you still buy that automobile? I wouldn't. An author's behavior most definitely will affect reader's purchases. At least most of the readers I know do factor in such things when purchasing books.
Robynn wrote: "Would you not buy a refrigerator based on the inventor's personal life? How about a car? Hmmm, or what about a hammer? Do you know anything at all about those people's personal interests or behaviors? If we are going to base what we know about people as a reason to buy a product, then we are going to be very busy researching."
Yes, I would choose not to do business with that individual or corporation if I was aware of their bad behavior, and many other people feel the same. Look at the Chick-fil-A boycott.
And yes, it does take a lot of time and effort to catalog that kind of information. Reviewers were doing it anyway in the interest of protecting other readers from being burned. But GR deleted that work without notice, and now they refuse to let us do it anymore. So everyone who is concerned about these issues will have to seek out that information on their own.
If your argument is that it takes a lot of time and effort to research each product that we want to buy--yes, I totally agree. And that's why we need to support and protect the people who do that work voluntarily.
Robynn wrote: "And if an author continually attacks reviewers, they shouldn't be an author. Just like any product, the creator of the product needs to understand that some will like it, some will not and not take a critique of their product personally."
I agree completely. But we can't control the behavior of authors. We can only react to it, and choose whether or not to endorse it financially.
Robynn wrote: "But I think you need to research a little more deeply just what the complaint about GR bullies is about."
Please don't make assumptions about what I have or haven't researched. I'm an ardent reviewer advocate, and am familiar with MANY of the bullying cases that have occurred between reviewers and authors over the past few years.
For reference, here is an example of actual bullying:
Author Kiera Cass and her agent bullied reviewer Wendy Darling over a review of The Selection. Screenshots linked inside.
Timeline of events: http://www.themidnightgarden.net/2012...
Original review: http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...
Robynn wrote: "I applaud your well written opinion. Just would like to clarify a few things.Would you not buy a refrigerator based on the inventor's personal life? How about a car? Hmmm, or what about a hammer?..."
it has become fairly clear that this attempt by goodreads is to make it the same as amazon. amazon has a voting system which allows product managers to push reviews down, flag them, and then have an auto system that is terribly inept at knowing if the review is fake or a character attack. This has been proven time and time again,which i think is one our our biggest concerns; how is it going to be implemented?
Products are built by people, and for many reasons those factors definitely turn off buyers. Think gap and those who create the shirts/pants/underwear/socks etc. think apple and who is responsible for mining the metals, the person who puts it together. in some of these examples people protest quietly by simply saying they wont buy them; some may even keep lip shut and not tell people. others may sign an online petition. some may call on apple, while some may call on the government as well. Some may also strike back with a protest of some kind, which is hopefully peaceful and constructive. point is, though, that products are the result of someones efforts.
two different implications here.
of 1 the author writes MANY books about women in a way that some women find particularly disgusting, unjust, or demoralizing, then i suppose this is a part of the authors style and prose, etc. Is it not right to then implicate in some manner the authors undercurrents of (whatever you wish to call it)?
it gets a bit confusing when it comes to real life issues... Yes im going to use chic Fil A as an example. the CEO may be against gays, but that doesnt mean the workers are. Furthermore your burger isnt written with the words "f*g" right across it. it is less explicit how the monies spent on these items seep back into the CEOS agenda. Take the local farmer, whom during the mitt/obama campaign said in big letters "i support Mitt" you may decide to skip eating there because your views dont align with his/hers.....
we can go on and on about how those views of mine are incorrect, or the next step in the process, but the basic, superficial aspects—the ones people tend to settle on—are there.
I also have a problem integrating your last two statements: "I also agree that discussion is always the best way to resolve an issue. Good point there.
And all of this is just my opinion, just as you have a right to yours. To bad it can't just be acknowledged and we walk away with nothing further said.
"
if discussion is important, then wouldnt it be wise, and even beneficial to rise above criticism and try as we might to listen, reflect, etc on what others say. As they say in many communication classrooms: facts, feelings, perceptions, intentions....its one of the wonders of successful social intercourse.
the revenge aspect is terribly difficult to assess; you must get this, right? Its entirely too cloaked in personal ideologies. I can write a review slamming—professional, harsh manner— about an authors approach, especially if its an approach that is echoed through his/her work as a whole. I can also debate the way an author confronted something, say mental health. The words an author chooses to use and the meaning making behind them is incredibly powerful For instance, if he/she struggled to, or overtly presented therapy in a manner that may, to some level, strip away the process we have seen in person interfacing with this level of care, arent we, as a reviewer who doesnt point this out somehow at fault as well? should it be our responsibility to provide counter points.
I get it, the extremely well diverse author may be able to differentiate and put boundaries between his/ her own feelings about life and his or her values and morals aside when writing a book, but they often shine through, even a bit.
NOW calling an author a *(** * (**(_*(_#*(_*)@)*( is unacceptable and really not contributing to our community. they are taking up space, which is really not helpful to use or authors.
another inherent problem is that we share this place with authors and writers as well as reviewers. debate will arise over these issues, but a simplistic and vague policy, one that seems to align with authors rather than reviewers (it should have initially used half the time dealing with writers and half with reviewers) will simply just degrade our community, and incite us; which we all know degrades our ability to communicate our needs and our desires in a responsible manner.
in the end, yes a book is a product, but its parts are not assembled by magic, as an iphone is not assembled by magic. people are involved, the peoples struggles and issues are different, but at their core there is the value of humanship, the use of humans, in a manner that produces a product that is either fault on its own (just doesnt work), or in the case of books is faulty either because its poorly written (authors responsibility) or because some aspects of the author's ideology found itself in a mix.
author is part of a book. a book is a product of an author.. they are terminally related to one another.
Written on phone.
Charlene wrote: "I shelved them that way and it would not have influenced you. However, some of my friends would take notice of how I had it shelved, seek out why and then make a reading choice armed with that inf..."Charlene wrote: "Robynn,
I have had a couple of problems with authors labeling me as a bully on their blogs (as well as the site that shall not be named). Though if you looked at any of my reviews it would be imme..."
do you think your shelving of books in that manner as a huge influence over my choice of books or is it just a reminder of yours to not read those books. could you perhaps may a list elsewhere?
the problem here is two fold
1. amazon.com/goodreads is taking over production, delivery, and evaluation of books, and no one seems to be paying attention to this issue; ok we are but its not doing anything to argue it, because they dont take notice or have some generic comment in return.
2. over the years type of evaluation and deletion has become faulty as a means of making everything nice with unicorns and handshakes... cupcakes.. im mean this in terms of amazon.com books (sorry for lack of clarification)
oh why not make it three fold.
3 we complain on here and no one is paying attention. some of you are very good writers and should be publishing these as op-eds to many different sources, blogs, news papers, etc. our views are, once again not being met or even valued.
again.. on phone response.
The comment about your shelves was more rhetorical, as i can see, other than what you noted no implications of shelves. I dont even notice them.
I shelved them that way and it would not have influenced you. However, some of my friends would take notice of how I had it shelved, seek out why and then make a reading choice armed with that information. I, in turn, appreciate the heads up I would get from my friends, by looking on their shelves and at their reviews. I agree with your #3, no one is listening.
Well said Leah! I think you have put down what a lot of reviewers are feeling. I for one wont hold my breath - Amazon is a law unto itself - they do what they want and they don't have ears!
Charlene wrote: "I shelved them that way and it would not have influenced you. However, some of my friends would take notice of how I had it shelved, seek out why and then make a reading choice armed with that inf..."apparently my stuff didnt post. the shelving thing was rhetorical to a sense. it has NOTHING to do with good reads, it wont inform me. maybe i hate you... maybe i hate you reviews, and wont listen to your shelves? i mean this is a seriously faulty policy.
It's definitely a faulty policy, which was my reason for posting in response to Robynn's post above.
Charlene wrote: "It's definitely a faulty policy, which was my reason for posting in response to Robynn's post above."i probably sounded d*ckish.. not my intention... just clarifying my own subjective opinion based on your post.
Charlene wrote: I agree with your #3, no one is listening.
Amazon will only listen if their sales start to fall.
Amazon will only listen if their sales start to fall.
Which may start when they begin the taxing of products which will squeeze out small biz who benefit from this. Of course it won't be associated with this but I get a small sense of enjoyment from this.
Jas wrote: Which may start when they begin the taxing of products which will squeeze out small biz who benefit from this.
Or when we Goodreads members decide that we don't like the way Amazon-Goodreads is treating us, and stop buying stuff from Amazon. Forget complaining - when it comes down to it, our freedom of choice as consumers is the only actual power we have.
Or when we Goodreads members decide that we don't like the way Amazon-Goodreads is treating us, and stop buying stuff from Amazon. Forget complaining - when it comes down to it, our freedom of choice as consumers is the only actual power we have.
Shadow wrote: "Jas wrote: Which may start when they begin the taxing of products which will squeeze out small biz who benefit from this. Or when we Goodreads members decide that we don't like the way Amazon-Goo..."
good luck with that.. good freaking luck.. you wont make a dent in amazons product purchasing. a DENT.
No. But if all of us did it...
And really, it's not about power anyway. It's about not being a pawn in their game.
And really, it's not about power anyway. It's about not being a pawn in their game.
You are only a pawn because you are usable. You lack Power for change.. Boycotts don't work and no substantial amount of people will stop using thee cheapest means of getting products. We need however public attention. Letters to independent book sellers. Cementing alternatives. Op eds. Contact media. What makes us powerless is that we will not do these things though
I know I'm sounding like an arse. Just saying and now the media is siding with good reads and call in us basically brats
As a reader/writer myself, I've been hesitant to weigh in on this fiasco. I never used GR as a reader, and have tried to respect it as "reader's space," staying relatively quiet when some new scandal surfaced. My blog post basically said, "Peace out, bitches. You can find me on Booklikes."This is the first and last GR post I'll comment on in response to the new TOS and GR staff's subsequent handling of their implementation. I simply wanted to say THANK YOU for taking the time to articulate everything I was thinking, but without calling anybody "bitches."
Virginia wrote: "As a reader/writer myself, I've been hesitant to weigh in on this fiasco. I never used GR as a reader, and have tried to respect it as "reader's space," staying relatively quiet when some new scan..."booklikes seems to be exactly like goodreads, but i have already heard of authors (some),PR people, spammers writing fake reviews. I have also heard that people who were kicked off here (those ones who wrote lovely nasty reviews) are heading that way. this could just be a recursive cycle. I dont know whether to stick it out here and wait to see really what the line is, or to go to booklikes. if its the same ole non constructive review place im staying here. plus booklikes seems to be sorta beta and slow. Id love to know what you think of it as an author though
Jas wrote: "Virginia wrote: "As a reader/writer myself, I've been hesitant to weigh in on this fiasco. I never used GR as a reader, and have tried to respect it as "reader's space," staying relatively quiet w..."As an author, I don't have an opinion. I suck at marketing, so any presence I have on the internet or social media is more about entertaining myself than it is about selling books. I'm more likely to be found bitching about politics on twitter than talking about writing or trying to sell my books. Talk about turning off readers, right? I should probably revisit that later. Damnit.
Anyway, that said, I like Booklikes for several reasons. I love tumblr, so naturally, I love the interface. I love gifs and book porn, I can spend hours scrolling through that rolling blog format. And as far as bookshelves, reviews, etc. are concerned- I only bought my first ebook like five months ago. In fact, I drove to Half Price Books yesterday to find something to read because I hate combing through ebooks online. I need to feel a book in my hands, smell it, turn the pages. As a reader, I never knew sites like GR existed, I always just skimmed bookshelves at my bookstore for stuff to read. I only discovered sites like these as an author- so I'm not invested in any particular cataloguing service. It's no skin off my back to go start somewhere fresh.
And I said my comment above would be my first and last, but since you asked... I'm in total agreement with Leah. I've got no love for a rule that says I can't rate a book however I see fit for whatever reason I see fit. Also, I saw no evidence of this "bully culture" people keep referencing. I've read some nasty reviews, and I've seen some authors taken to task for either writing a shitty book or being an asshole, but bully culture? Pfffft- hardly. In short, I don't hold readers responsible for maintaining a "constructive review place." It's not a reader's responsibility to provide "constructive feedback," that's my editor's job. As a reader, I want to say, "Fuck Ann Coulter, I'll never read her shitty books," and I don't think I deserve to be called a bully for having done so.
So, yeah- however inarticulately, I'm just saying I agree with Leah and I'll have more fun in a place where I can scroll unlimited and unfiltered book stuff; but respect to all who still love GR- I mean, people wouldn't be so upset about leaving if it didn't have significant value.
Tangent time!Virginia wrote: "As an author, I don't have an opinion. I suck at marketing, so any presence I have on the internet or social media is more about entertaining myself than it is about selling books. I'm more likely to be found bitching about politics on twitter than talking about writing or trying to sell my books. Talk about turning off readers, right?"
There was an excellent article in The Guardian last year about how social media is virtually useless for selling products. Which was a huge relief for me, because trying to sell my own stuff is boring as hell. I believe word-of-mouth is stronger than any annoying sales tactic I could ever do anyway. So, back to tweeting lolcats!
Virginia wrote: "I don't hold readers responsible for maintaining a "constructive review place." It's not a reader's responsibility to provide "constructive feedback," that's my editor's job. As a reader, I want to say, "Fuck Ann Coulter, I'll never read her shitty books," and I don't think I deserve to be called a bully for having done so."
A-freaking-men.
Leah wrote: "Tangent time!Virginia wrote: "As an author, I don't have an opinion. I suck at marketing, so any presence I have on the internet or social media is more about entertaining myself than it is ab..."
*fist bump*
Tweet me! I love LOLCats!
Virginia wrote: "As a reader/writer myself, I've been hesitant to weigh in on this fiasco. I never used GR as a reader, and have tried to respect it as "reader's space," staying relatively quiet when some new scandal surfaced. My blog post basically said, "Peace out, bitches. You can find me on Booklikes." ..."Virginia, I'm still trying to figure wth I'm doing over @ BL but if you can, find me over there (I'll be staying on GR for group stuff but no longer posting reviews here). Also, be sure to pop in on our game thread now and again, OK? Ya know the one :)




















