message 51:
by
Sandi - Protester of Goofreads
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Sep 23, 2013 03:19PM
What I would expect from an author - intelligent & articulate.
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just 'cause, awesome, you are. Thank you! <3
Extremely well-written, well thought out post. Thank you for your intelligent explanation of the subtleties involved in an honest community like GR.
GREAT point!Leah wrote: "Thank you to everyone who's commented and liked this. ♥
@Stacey: "Reading social activism" - LOVE THIS. Hell to the yes.
It's going to be a HUGE issue when the Ender's Game movie comes out in Nov..."
Well said Leah. I wish all author's were as sincere and as talented as you. If, as a reader, I can't say when I don't like a book, what is the use of Goodreads. I thought it was so you could find books that you want to discuss and look for others that you may want to read, or want to ignore.
Emily May wrote: "Hi again, Mike. As someone who was bullied every day for a long time, I take issue with the word "bullying" being used to describe calling out authors for their own bad behaviour and/or stating you..."Hello, again. We do seem to run into each other a lot in these debates, don't we?
That's an interesting story, but I disagree. I don't think an author's personal beliefs should be included in a review, unless those beliefs come through in the book. Calling Hitler an anti-Semite asshole in a review of Mein Kampf certainly shouldn't be censored, because Mein Kampf is about his prejudices - I do indeed disagree with that part. But talking about Orson Scott Card's homophobia is irrelevant because, based on my understanding, his views don't come through in the book.
The social context of the book is only relevant when it becomes apparent in the book itself. To say that you don't support people reading a book because the author is homophobic, liberal, sexist, feminist, ect. is, in part, saying that the author has to be someone you like and agree with in order for you to enjoy his/her book. And to say that you wish for a boycott for those reasons is to say that the author has to be someone you like/agree with in order for anyone to enjoy his/her books. That, in my opinion, shouldn't be what a review is about, because at that point, does the book really matter? It may to some extent, but the book has to be the large factor, not the author.
Maybe it's just a personal preference that makes up the difference. I care very little about an author's personal life when reading their book - it just doesn't feel relevant. Maybe because I feel like it would cut me off from books I enjoy if I found out about these things. But I wouldn't write a review criticizing the author for something that didn't come through in one of their books, which is why I'm less mad than others about the censorship of such reviews.
And sorry about the misuse of the word 'bullying' - I've been a victim of homophobic bullying myself, so I hate to have offended someone who went through something similar.
Tom wrote: "One of Mike's recent comments: "I honestly feel a little sorry for Klein. Based on my interactions with her, she seems like a nice person who deserves to be respected as an author. But if she's goi..."My mistake - I see what you're talking about now. The difference is that what I wrote was a status update, not a review. I would never put something like that in a review - my status updates tend to be a lot looser. (Plus, my personal opinion of the author didn't affect my opinion of the book a goddamned bit, in contrast to what GR is censoring.)
I disagree. I think all books change depending on your perspective and, while you may choose not to, a reviewer is not making irrelevant comments when considering the influence of the author's personal life on the book and vice versa when it comes to the financial side. A book is not just a story, it's not just words, it's a product and there are many factors to consider. Orson Scott Card's homophobia is relevant to me (and many others). I appreciate that it may not be relevant to you, but it appalls me that without goodreads that man may have received money from me (even the obviously small amount it would be). I suppose the question is: what is a review? If it's an opinion piece, then it's fine to give your opinion of the author. If it's to help others decide where to spend their hard-earned cash, then it's relevant to inform them that Card finances many homophobic projects. I actually can't think of a single case where you should mention the art but it would be inappropriate to talk about the artist.
Oh, and you asked in your original post where goodreads claimed to be a community, so here you go: https://www.goodreads.com/jobs
Note: I apologise if any of this post doesn't make sense. It's nearly 3am where I am and I really should be asleep :)
Emily May wrote: "I disagree. I think all books change depending on your perspective and, while you may choose not to, a reviewer is not making irrelevant comments when considering the influence of the author's pers..."Yup, and this is exactly why I don't want to contribute my dollars to people who have values I find objectionable. I don't challenge their right to their opinions, or expressing them. I simply don't want to support them. And the reviews give me a lot of this type of info that is much appreciated.
Thank you so much for writing this! This makes me feel the love for books and the reviewing community all over again, and I'll always support it, even if it ceases to be on Goodreads. I sure hope Goodreads goes back to the way it was though, because here is where I really nurtured my bookish loves for the first time.
Randolph wrote: "A lot of you are talking to the wrong people. GR doesn't care about you unless you are an author. You need to be bombarding Amazon and boycotting Amazon. GR is just a subsidiary of Amazon and th..."Actually, Randolph, the discussion here on Goodreads is getting noticed by the media at large:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/c...
Excellent words Leah! <3And yeah, Goodreads should also listen to the readers. We review to express our feelings and opinions. Just because some authors can't take criticism with grace, you'll take it out on your loyal users.
Leah wrote: "Randolph wrote: "A lot of you are talking to the wrong people. GR doesn't care about you unless you are an author. You need to be bombarding Amazon and boycotting Amazon. GR is just a subsidiary..."Oh yea, that kind of publicity will make more of an impression on GR & Amazon than we will.
Just a PS: I wish they would have referenced Leah's letter.
Leah wrote: "More media coverage:http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/g..."
brilliant! i saw a lot of it hit twitter, facebook etc. we need more readers writing stuff, though... putting it out where it cant be deleted.
Sandi wrote: "Leah wrote: "Randolph wrote: "A lot of you are talking to the wrong people. GR doesn't care about you unless you are an author. You need to be bombarding Amazon and boycotting Amazon. GR is just..."Amazon is too big to boycott.. what we need is public awareness, outcries... we are too little in numbers to decrease the money they make on amazon.com.. but with CNN picking this up maybe a few of us could submit some op-eds... at least to online sources?!
Susanne but its getting attention.... However wrong it is. Just means we gotta get out voice out there more.
Beautifully stated Leah. You've expressed all our sentiments in a totally decent and dignified way.
*Applauds*
*Applauds*
There are not enough cookies in the world to feed you. There are not enough episodes of 30 Rock to fill you with joy. There are not enough of your favorites books in the world to read to you. There are not enough burritos to fill your stomach with heavenly bliss. There is not enough thanks to give to you for writing this well-written, articulated reply. Thanks a million.
Further to Leah's post & link in MSG #76 upthread, this line gave me a much-needed laugh:“Hell hath no correctly punctuated fury like a book nerd scorned.”
(altho, the writer herself missed a hyphen ^.^)
Brilliant blog-post, Leah. You have obviously caught the general feeling on GR perfectly, and summed it up beautifully.
Goodreads, like all privately owned social websites, was always a despotism, and like all despotisms, contains the seeds of tyranny: perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised that the benevolent despot has gone and a less benevolent one has taken their place.
Goodreads, like all privately owned social websites, was always a despotism, and like all despotisms, contains the seeds of tyranny: perhaps we shouldn't be too surprised that the benevolent despot has gone and a less benevolent one has taken their place.
Over 500 likes? Wow, just... wow.Hopefully Otis et al will pay attention and take the time to read.
(Also blows a VERY large hole in the claims made by those people at the-site-that-shall-not-be-named that this policy is only hated by 'a small group fo trolls/bullies'....)
I think of us more as hobbits than trolls. At the moment it feels like the Shire has been invaded by orcs.
I am now assiduously backing up my reviews on my PC. I should always have been doing it, of course, but now it seems critical.
I am now assiduously backing up my reviews on my PC. I should always have been doing it, of course, but now it seems critical.
Does writing a book mean that person is suddenly a public figure? Am I now a public figure? Open to the same scrutiny as an elected official? Should I sit back as people, trolls and all, mock not just my work, but me as a person? It's a chilling thought. Perhaps that is the risk authors run. We need to grow a pretty thick skin in these days of instant, digital feedback. Authors cannot divorce the producer from the product novel (or else criticism would not hurt so much) so it is understandable that readers cannot either. After all, reviews drive sales. But should a poor review of a novel include a character assassination?
Perhaps the industry is going the same way of sports and pop music. That's a pretty sad indictment for modern society.
Dominic wrote: "But should a poor review of a novel include a character assassination?"
"Character assassination" is one of those loaded legal terms that laypeople (I'm including myself here) tend to use subjectively.
Discussing the public behavior and views an author has expressed is not character assassination.
Digging into the personal life of a reviewer and publically posting private information in an attempt to discredit, intimidate, and silence the reviewer is definitely character assassination.
I have yet to see an author actually character-assassinated on GR. Discussions of authors revolve around their public statements and behavior.
The problem usually comes when authors don't realize that the internet is public. Tweets are public. Comments on reviews and blogs are public. Public Facebook posts are, surprise, public! When an author makes a statement in one of these venues, they are saying something publically.
(For contrast, not public: personal email, phone calls, text messages.)
I think a lot of the BBA drama springs from this presumption of privacy by internet-unsaavy authors. They don't seem to realize that they're saying something publically and permanently when they tweet or comment.























