A Serious Talk About Co-optation

A couple days ago Jessewave had a guest post from Real Life Gay(TM) Stuart questioning whether M/M tropes had currently crossed over into co-optation territory. "What an awesome post," I thought. Virtual high-fives all around.

Then today I saw a post from Voinov about how TERRIBLE and WRONG it is that people in the M/M community are telling female writers they're NOT ALLOWED to write M/M because they don't have the gay men expertise. Only gay men can tell authentic stories, blah, blah, blah...

"Oh not this again!" I thought. And like many of you I leaned over to click the 'like' button before I'd read the post-- thankfully something made me stop ... I clicked through to see the original post made by Megan Derr first. And then-- thinking smugly "I have got to see the asshat who kicked this off"-- I clicked through to the post Derr was replying to.

And found myself staring at the Jessewave post.

What's funny about this situation is there's simply nothing in Stuart's post that talks about whether women are allowed to write M/M. NOTHING. He doesn't say it directly, he doesn't imply it indirectly. What he does do is speculate that the current batch of tropes comes from a combination of well meaning ignorance from majority female writers and what is marketable and desirable to the female readership that makes up most of the genre. That's no where near the same thing.

And ... as can be expected when you imply that a group of people used to patting themselves on the back are maybe contributing in some small way to a problem, the shit storm began.

The sad thing is ROMANCE (not just M/M) does have a serious co-optation problem and a good opportunity to discuss it has been lost. I can't allow that :/

What Is Co-optation?
Co-optation (also referred to as cultural appropriation) happens when a majority group repurposes elements of a fringe/minority culture for their own purposes. The classic example is the Native American headdress and the modern day hipster. The Native American wears the headdress for a specific cultural reason, the hipster wears it to be "cool".

Co-optation becomes a problem when the majority's usage starts to subvert the fringe group's. This is damaging because to the majority the element is usually just a trend, it's fun, it's aesthetically pleasing, whatever-- whereas to the minority group the element being co-opted is a part of a shared identity. The minority group is losing something important and significant so that the majority group can have some fun. In the end, trends will shift, the majority group will lose interest and find something new to be "cool" but the minority group does not get their identity back. Think of the swastika. It's been-- what?-- almost seventy years since the dissolution of the Nazi party, can Hindus and Buddhists go back to using the symbol the same way they once did? Nope. That's what sucks about co-optation.

How Does This Happen in Romance?
Let's not make this about M/M, because it's not exclusive to M/M. Few BDSM stories reflect the BDSM community accurately, almost no menage stories even try to get poly lifestyle right, and don't get me started about rape fantasy ;)

Fantasy by itself is not a problem. I don't like stories about weepy bottoms and their seven foot, muscly, manly tops but I don't find them OFFENSIVE. Writing about a particular situation that is not your own situation is not in and of itself co-optation .

It BECOMES co-optation when these tropes become the only stories that people are allowed to tell. When writers are pressured by editors and publishers to change their stories to fit a particular mold. When books that were never published as romance novels are forced into the genre and subsequently dismissed as being subpar when they fail to provide the desired fantasy. When it becomes impossible for novels to become successful if they do not provide the fantasy the majority wants.

Again: co-optation happens when a majority group takes over elements of a minority group's identity and experience for no other reason than titillation and entertainment.

Chill Out, Co-optation Doesn't Make You a Bad Person
This is a fight I fight all the time as a woman in a technical profession. It's so difficult to get my nerdy boy colleagues to understand that the problem is not whether or not they are biased. Biases are naturally and unavoidable. The problem is how they RESPOND to the bias.

In the same way, Co-optation is just a natural process. As ideals become popular they lose some of their original meaning ... regardless of how careful and "respectful" people try to be. The fact that you have written or enjoyed some of the tropes described in Stuart's post does not make you a bad person. It's how you respond to people like Stuart pointing out issues with your use of their identity that matters.

How to Handle Co-optation - Step One: Listen
The crime of co-optation is that the voices and experiences of the minority get SILENCED. The easiest way to enjoy your M/M fantasy and keep the genre becoming co-optative is to keep an open mind to different perspectives. You don't have to read stories you don't like or change your reviews, but you do have to give space to other voices.

Which means, for example, when a gay man writes an intelligent guest post about how many M/M tropes do not reflect his experience and how maybe this bothers him, don't throw a hysterical hissy fit about how HE is oppressing YOU.

Step Two: Embrace and Reclaim Your Niche
You like what you like. There's no shame in that ... so stop acting ashamed of it. You know what fuels most of the co-optation I've seen in Romance? People being ashamed of the label "Romance readers"

Self-conscious of the stigma of one label, suddenly readers and writers "rebrand" themselves as something else. "M/M Romance" becomes "GBLT Fiction" and "Romance" becomes "Erotica"... There. That sounds so much classier, doesn't it?

Except the books themselves don't change. What happens to the people who were writing and reading GBLT Fiction (as in novels about the GBLT experience that don't necessarily involve any love interests) before you decided it sounded better? How do their writers find the right readers now that their genre is being flooded with hundreds of new books that don't have anything to do with what they write?

Like a new species introduced into an existing ecosystem, when we rebrand M/M as something else we make it harder for fringe voices to survive. We lose diversity and start co-opting.

So don't do it. Don't rebrand. Embrace your niche. As someone who went to school in Japan and did my thesis on social-economic undertones of yaoi (yes, really. My advisor loved it) ... the only thing more annoying to me than seeing a bunch of western romances labelled "yaoi" is listening to a bunch of western romance fans define "yaoi". Stop it. Tacking a manga style cover on something and making one of the boys super effeminate does not make something "yaoi". Calling something "yaoi" does not make it more sophisticated/cultured/worldly/etc. You know what it does do? Make it that much harder for fans of yaoi to connect with like minded individuals.

A writer who can't find his audience is a silenced voice. You don't have to start reading things you're not interested in, you do have to stop taking over other genres because OMG that name sounds so much cooler!

Step Three: Realize That There Is No GLAAD Award For "Best Reader"
I feel like controversies like the Stuart post wouldn't happen as often if people stopped trying to ascribe higher meaning to their love of hot guy-on-guy action. I see A LOT of readers/writers behave like the simple act of powering on the Kindle is a meaningful show of solidarity with the gay community. Like it's the equivalent of marching in the Pride parade or campaigning for marriage equity.

And so understandably these people get very threatened when someone implies that what they write or what they like to read might actually be hurting the community. They get defensive. They overreact. They make this community a unwelcoming place for different voices ... ironically many of those voices turn out to belong to actual gay men.

But this is silly. I can think of no situation where great social injustices have been corrected through porn (well okay maybe Deep Throat but only indirectly!). If you want to show your support for the gay community, do it with your actions, not with what you gets you off.

The best way to keep M/M open and respectful of the gay community is to be honest about its significance. I think Emma put it best:

I read m/m as a play space in which we, the readers and writers, wear male avatars. M/m is not about gay men any more than it is about vampires, dance competitions, or giraffe shifters. M/m explores the panoply of human relationships (and sometimes, lack of relationships: see Doubtless). The genre plays with the notion of a traditional hetero binary, with triads, with ideas of power exchange, with ideas of equality.


Yes! And there's no reason why this play can't peacefully coexist with more realistic depiction of real-life-gayness, but we have to allow them to coexist which means we have to check our egos at the door, be honest about what we really want in a story and stop trying to rebrand ourselves into "coolness".
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Published on November 20, 2012 15:54
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message 1: by Emma Sea (new)

Emma Sea Really thoughtful and awesome post, Isa.


message 2: by Jenn (new)

Jenn I love this post. Thanks.


Experiment BL626 "Embrace your niche. As someone who went to school in Japan and did my thesis on social-economic undertones of yaoi"

Any chance we can see that thesis? Curiosity heightened!


message 4: by Nichole (DirrtyH) (last edited Nov 20, 2012 04:35PM) (new)

Nichole (DirrtyH) Awesome, Isa! I think this is what I was thinking about the whole thing, only without the articulate presentation, and you know, actual intelligence. :) Thank you!


message 5: by Isa (last edited Nov 20, 2012 04:50PM) (new)

Isa K. Experiment BL626 wrote: ""Embrace your niche. As someone who went to school in Japan and did my thesis on social-economic undertones of yaoi"

Any chance we can see that thesis? Curiosity heightened!"


I had a feeling you were going to ask me that. I don't know ... that was over ten years ago @_@ I know where some of my notes are, but not the whole paper.

Anyway basically my argument was that tropes in yaoi (and BL manga as a whole but more specifically yaoi) strongly reflected the opportunities available to Japanese women at the time produced. So, in the 60ties where women were working in horrible factory conditions or trapped at home, the "European Boarding School Rape" Fantasy was crazy prevalent with its severe effeminization/masculinization and emphasis on violent uncontrollable love, foreign places and people (this is what most people associate with "yaoi" but it hasn't really been common in DECADES). But as Women's Lib starts to gain steam the "uke" characters become more masculine, start showing more initiative, are less likely to just accept the rape-love. Until the modern manifestation of yaoi where sports stories that emphasize brotherhood and companionship love among men are overwhelmingly popular and shorter/younger/girlish "seme" characters are not difficult to find at all.

Basically it was a good excuse to read lots of porn in class ;)


message 6: by Emma Sea (last edited Nov 20, 2012 05:06PM) (new)

Emma Sea Stuart makes a point that I have heard echo through all my friends' feeds over the last six months:

"I wonder how free these authors feel to step outside the conventions of M/M fiction and still have a reasonable expectation their books will sell. People often buy genre fiction because it fulfills an expectation that certain things will happen in a certain way. The great genre authors are the ones able to create new expectations within the genre or play with the existing conventions in new and thrilling ways. Often, however, authors with less imagination cannibalize the work of their more creative peers and a trope or motif that might have made sense in its original context spreads throughout the genre and becomes cliché."

As a genre, m/m isn't satisfying us because of this cannabalisation. So many of the new releases aren't the books we want to read any more. Lots of my friends are taking, have taken, or are planning to take m/m breaks. Isa's previous posts have addressed a lot of these issues: and yes, some of this seems seems to be profit-related and publisher-driven.

M/m is eating itself.

I don't want the genre to collapse inwards like a black hole, because I love it. Is the solution to seek out new self-published authors? My favourite three books this year are The Condor, Shattered Glass, and How to Repair a Mechanical Heart: all self-pubs. Our GR network is our strength in this.


message 7: by Eve (last edited Nov 20, 2012 05:20PM) (new)

Eve Yes, but even those self-pubbed authors will suffer from being co-opted to an extent. There are several self-pubbed authors whose first book I loved and then their second or third books started bearing the hallmarks of either being (1) smushed into a trope and rushed to publication without enough work or (2) commissioned by a publisher for a theme and thus lacking any real inspiration.

ETA, great post, Isa!


message 8: by Isa (new)

Isa K. Weasel wrote: "I remain tainted by my early experience with it. M/M is a happy place for me and I'm sure I'm not the only gay man to feel that way."

Oh yes! I wanted to make this point too but I forgot about it :) I found it interesting that everyone automatically assumed that the fantasy Stuart described isn't appealing to gay men as well, because you're definitely not alone LOL


message 9: by Ayanna (new)

Ayanna Isa wrote: "Experiment BL626 wrote: ""Embrace your niche. As someone who went to school in Japan and did my thesis on social-economic undertones of yaoi"

Any chance we can see that thesis? Curiosity heightene..."


Isa wrote: "Anyway basically my argument was that tropes in yaoi (and BL manga as a whole but more specifically yaoi) strongly reflected the opportunities available to Japanese women at the time produced. So, in the 60ties where women were working in horrible factory conditions or trapped at home, the "European Boarding School Rape" Fantasy was crazy prevalent with its severe effeminization/masculinization and emphasis on violent uncontrollable love, foreign places and people (this is what most people associate with "yaoi" but it hasn't really been common in DECADES). But as Women's Lib starts to gain steam the "uke" characters become more masculine, start showing more initiative, are less likely to just accept the rape-love. Until the modern manifestation of yaoi where sports stories that emphasize brotherhood and companionship love among men are overwhelmingly popular and shorter/younger/girlish "seme" characters are not difficult to find at all."

Is it really changing now? The reason I stopped reading yaoi was because of the rampant rape-"love" and conditioning/Stockholm as a vehicle of romance. (Not to mention, of course, that the seme/uke thing is ultimately a heterosexualization of a homosexual relationship...)
This means mangas have stopped rabidly referencing Pavlovian dogs, right? Right? *crosses fingers* Please let it be so! Maybe I'll start looking into yaoi again when I'm feeling like reading manga...


message 10: by Experiment BL626 (last edited Nov 20, 2012 05:44PM) (new)

Experiment BL626 @Weasel
I came of age at the nascent millennium. Those "authentic" gay lit I came across were depressing as hell. Fucked me up for a long time. I'm still a WIP. IMO, the LGBT book scene haven't changed from your time to my time. At least on the YA part. I didn't even dare touch the adult gay lit.

I still read YA and I think only like 1-2 years ago did I discover "happy" fiction of gay characters (as MC, not sidekicks) with a plot that wasn't a "life a bitch, and then you die." Though to be fair, they were sci-fi/fantasy and I avoid contemporary YA.

So, you're not the only one.

@Ayanna
Yaoi is still the same yaoi of the previous decades.


message 11: by Isa (last edited Nov 20, 2012 06:11PM) (new)

Isa K. Ayanna wrote: "Is it really changing now? The reason I stopped reading yaoi was because of the rampant rape-"love" and conditioning/Stockholm as a vehicle of romance. (Not to mention, of course, that the seme/uke thing is ultimately a heterosexualization of a homosexual relationship...)"

Heh. Well it's been a while. I couldn't possibly make any recs on this. But there was a point where taller characters were tops. No question. It did not matter what the personality of the characters were. Taller = top and virtually NO ONE veered from this model. While Japanese M/M still holds onto seme/uke types to a degree, things used to be VERY STRICT.

The example that comes immediately to mind is Gravitation, which took the conventional "Cool seme, effeminate weepy uke" model and flipped it upside down. Shuichi actively pursues Yuki. Obsessively pursues him ... basically stalks him until Yuki finally gives in and sleeps with him. Like a typical seme Yuki is not gentle at all, Shuichi is telling him to stop and he ignores it. Rather than submissively accepting this treatment, Shuichi yells and berates Yuki, calls him a rapist and continues to squawk about his bullshit for pages (LOL)

I always liked that element of their relationship. Shuichi's ridiculousness basically calling out Yuki then Yuki being all like "-_-..... >.> .... >.> ..... :/ .... :( ... sorry *grumble*"

There's a lot more of what are called 襲い受け or osoiuke ... Ukes who not only pursue the seme but force a sexual relationship. (In more conventional terms we might call this "power bottom")

But if you're waiting for the Japanese manga with balanced, realistic gay relationships hahaha... good luck ;)


message 12: by [deleted user] (new)

Great post, Isa!


message 13: by Emma Sea (new)

Emma Sea Weasel wrote: "Have any bara titles been translated into English that anyone's aware of?"

I've found, like, two scanlations. I can't find a single one that's been actually published in English. I would be all over those!


message 14: by Experiment BL626 (last edited Nov 20, 2012 07:20PM) (new)

Experiment BL626 I don't think bara is any better than yaoi; it just take the D/s kinks in yaoi and reverse them.


message 15: by Queen (last edited Nov 20, 2012 06:57PM) (new)

Queen Ok, I haven't finished this but I am loving it. I am glad I read the other posts.
I have to ask you, what is your technical profession? This is out of curiosity and because I can relate.

And I LOVE the thesis you chose. I would like to read some of it if you can share it :P. I've read a huge amount of yaoi and some studies about it too. It is fascinating. (never mind I read the comments XD)

Ayanna wrote: "Ayanna wrote: "Is it really changing now? The reason I stopped reading yaoi was because of the rampant rape-"love" and conditioning/Stockholm as a vehicle of romance. (Not to mention, of course, that the seme/uke thing is ultimately a heterosexualization of a homosexual relationship...)"


It is changing, quite slowly, but you can find several titles that stand out because they defy the "rules" nowadays.

Now, the problem I see is that most of these are not being licensed haha. And I don't think there's any bara published in English. If it were I would know, I have a friend that's an huge fan of that and she gets them from Japan, she tends to buy them again if they are licensed in English.

I used to be heavily into yaoi before being able to read M/M properly (the English skills got better reading all that porn XD). At first I tended to devour anything I found, but it was only a few months later that I got annoyed with repetitive rampant rape-"love", conditioning/Stockholm as a vehicle of romance, the seme/uke thing. I talked a lot about it with a friend who shared the same views, and we came up with this crazy idea of creating a club to point the odd ones out or classify some of them.

We weren't 100% successful, since everyone had a different opinion about each character or story. Also, I don't think we chose the title very well, some people got offended, but it was catchy enough. I haven't worked on the site since more than a year ago. Now feel kind of...nervous to present our baby to you guys haha. But, well, someone might find something useful there.


message 16: by Isa (new)

Isa K. Queen wrote: "Ok, I haven't finished this but I am loving it. I am glad I read the other posts.
I have to ask you, what is your technical profession? This is out of curiosity and because I can relate.

And I LO..."


I'm what's call a Developer Evangelist/Hacker. What's happening in tech is that the industry is shifting from consumer products (where you built a cool website and lay people give you money to use it) to more development focused (where you built the infrastructure with which independent programmers will build cool things ... think smartphones and apps). But the problem with this shift is that programmers do not want to talk to sales people, or even customer service people... they want to talk to other programmers.

So essentially what I did is go to parties, conventions, meetups, etc, demo the product, answer questions about the product, debug things for other programmers ... then take this highly technical feedback back to engineering, talk them through the issues we're seeing on the ground with the product, help them develop solutions, etc. Depending on how large the company is there may as be some tutorial writing, sample code generation, teaching, etc.

I also do a lot of prototyping, stress testing and security audits (which is a fancy way of saying I see how easy it is to break shit) Right now I'm prototyping a console to control multiple cloud servers at once ^_^

It's the coolest job in the world really :D


message 17: by Queen (new)

Queen Isa wrote: "It's the coolest job in the world really :D"

You are completely right about that. You get to break things!

Let me see if I get it right, you are the connection between the two worlds? I am a programmer and, even if I am not an expert, I understand this thing about wanting to deal only with the code's craziness.

Right now I'm prototyping a console to control multiple cloud servers at once ^_^
And here I am getting excited about learning to make webpages XD.

What you said about being a techy woman, that doesn't happen a lot here, maybe because all extremely technical people are regarded as equally weird hahaha. But I know of a fellow engineer that was seen as the strangest bug in Germany, probably the only woman in her department. She told me they were like "how can a pretty woman be an engineer?" something along the lines of if you are pretty, no way that you are smart.


message 18: by Leanne (new)

Leanne ....we have to check our egos at the door, be honest about what we really want in a story and stop trying to rebrand ourselves into "coolness".

Yes!!!
Thanks for some excellent points here Isa. I, stupidly, clicked the like button before eventually getting to Stuart's post and then wanted to kick myself for not being more careful.


message 19: by Emma Sea (new)

Emma Sea Leanne wrote: "I, stupidly, clicked the like button before eventually getting to Stuart's post and then wanted to kick myself for not being more careful. "

Sometimes I use 'like' as an 'I acknowledge this post addresses points worth raising' more than 'I agree with this post'.


message 20: by Leanne (new)

Leanne Yeah- me too. But in this case I felt it necessary to 'unlike'. ; ) I don't think Stuart's post warranted the hysterical arm flapping.


message 21: by Isa (last edited Nov 20, 2012 08:06PM) (new)

Isa K. Queen wrote: "And here I am getting excited about learning to make webpages XD"

Well, as I tell my little fan club, I did not come out of the womb writing Lambda functions, LOL. I also didn't do any kind of university degree in tech or engineering. I just like building shit ^_^ For me writing code is exactly the same as writing stories ... just slightly different audience and less sex scenes

"What you said about being a techy woman, that doesn't happen a lot here, maybe because all extremely technical people are regarded as equally weird hahaha. But I know of a fellow engineer that was seen as the strangest bug in Germany, probably the only woman in her department. She told me they were like "how can a pretty woman be an engineer?" something along the lines of if you are pretty, no way that you are smart."

It can be pretty subtle. The main problem is that women are assumed to be less skilled than men, so in order to be competitive she must be twice as good just to been seen as equal. Funny story, before I moved over to Evangelism I was doing a lot of data analysis type programming. And a job opened up at this big startup that looked like it might be a good opportunity. They grilled me for five hours, during which I designed a system that was comparable to what they were using at the time, blind, with no data, no schema, no tools other than a whiteboard marker ... they acted like this was a major failure ... all except one of their existing analysts, who was female and thought I was brilliant.

Anyway the next day I get a call from them asking if I'd come in for another four more hours. By this point I had already passed a technical skills test, several screening interviews, plus the previous five hour session. I realized then that it wasn't about me proving myself so much as it was certain people trying to find holes in my skills they could nitpick in order to prove I wasn't qualified. So I was like "Mmmmm how about, no?" and passed on the job.

That's the way it is for women here. Assumed nontechnical until proven technical. While the boys are assumed technical until proven nontechnical.


message 22: by Experiment BL626 (new)

Experiment BL626 Isa wrote: "Queen wrote: "And here I am getting excited about learning to make webpages XD"

Well, as I tell my little fan club, I did not come out of the womb writing Lambda functions, LOL. I also didn't do a..."


The fuck. That makes me feel crotch-kicking ragey.


message 23: by Hal (new)

Hal Evergreen Leanne wrote: "Yeah- me too. But in this case I felt it necessary to 'unlike'. ; ) I don't think Stuart's post warranted the hysterical arm flapping."

Megan Derr's post was TL:DR, but I did read Voinov's post and understood his perspective. Yeah, Stuart's post raised some good points, but there were also some things in it that deserved to be addressed. It should have prompted enlightened discussion, not rants, but this is the internet. Flame wars count as meaningful conversation here.


message 24: by Santino (new)

Santino Hassell Weasel wrote: "Ayanna wrote: "(Not to mention, of course, that the seme/uke thing is ultimately a heterosexualization of a homosexual relationship...)"

I have mixed feelings about that. It is and it isn't authe..."


The top/bottom thing doesn't bother me unless sexual position somehow starts to dictate a character's personality. The bottom needs protecting and is more passive while the top is more macho and aggressive, etc. Bottoms can be aggressive, tops don't have to pull the "you are mine, i own dis ass cuz i tapped it" card. That's the type of thing that bugs me.

But like you said, I know guys who aren't versatile at all, and I know a lot of guys who just won't bottom for someone shorter/skinnier than them, so there is some validity to the physical preference thing. It's not that much different than women who prefer super tall men even if they're like five foot.

When I read the original post I agreed with the complaints about tropes and it reminded me of some issues I've been having with writing in this genre lately, but I didn't interpret it the way some people did as far as it being anti-female writer. There are male writers who do the exact same things.

I did have some issues with some of the broad generalizations on behalf of the male side of the gay community though because not all of his claims were accurate as far as what he's observed in the gay community versus what other gay dudes may have observed. I know gay dudes who sashay when they walk, I know gay dudes who appreciate a nice pair of dicksucking lips and I actually know a guy who has a throat/adam's apple fetish so watching a dude guzzle water actually does turn him on. Everyone's different, etc, wise statement, blahblah

/2 cents


message 25: by Ayanna (new)

Ayanna I love subjects that can't be generalized. After a while, I start losing track of the individual threads of debate.


message 26: by Aiko (new)

Aiko Great post Isa :)

And really...hipsters wears Native American headdresses? How have I missed this?


message 27: by Sagajo (new)

Sagajo Interesting post. And gravitation <33333.


message 28: by Fairy / Anna (new)

Fairy / Anna Well, I liked that :) It kinda reminds me about my complaining when I think that someone describes women in wrong way :P Then my friend says: "Look how they describe gay men!" And then I stop talking ;)

Weasel wrote: " I'd love to read a story about a femme bottom who goes all bad-ass psychopathic mofo when his big manly protector gets put in real danger. "

I'd like to read that too. You're not the only one :D


message 29: by Aiko (new)

Aiko Weasel wrote: " I'd love to read a story about a femme bottom who goes all bad-ass psychopathic mofo when his big manly protector gets put in real danger. "

Read ICoS!


message 30: by Aleksandr (new)

Aleksandr Voinov Then today I saw a post from Voinov about how TERRIBLE and WRONG it is that people in the M/M community are telling female writers they're NOT ALLOWED to write M/M because they don't have the gay men expertise. Only gay men can tell authentic stories, blah, blah, blah...

That is not what I wrote, BTW, and not even touching the main point I made in my blog post.


message 31: by Fairy / Anna (new)

Fairy / Anna Aiko wrote: "Weasel wrote: " I'd love to read a story about a femme bottom who goes all bad-ass psychopathic mofo when his big manly protector gets put in real danger. "

Read ICoS!"


I'm planning to, just saying. It wasn't even an answer to my post ;) But it's long. And I heard that it's really difficult - emotional exhausting - in some parts. I'm not sure if I'm brave enough...


message 32: by [deleted user] (new)

If I could have pushed that like button more than once I'd have pushed it a hundred! Yes! Exactly!


message 33: by Chris (new)

Chris Emma wrote: "M/m is eating itself."

Yes. This.

One of the things that hooked me on hockey fanfic was that the writers are unapologetically having fun with writing and tropes (accidental marriage! secret baby! etc - but also amazingly stalker trope free, yay!). And it made me realize how rarely I have the sense when reading m/m that the author was writing for the love of writing and enjoying it - too often lately it's felt that I'm reading books written by authors who are grinding them out simply to be saleable. I've grown weary of this. So very weary.


message 34: by Aiko (new)

Aiko Fairy / Anna wrote: "I'm planning to, just saying. It wasn't even an answer to my post ;) But it's long. And I heard that it's really difficult - emotional exhausting - in some parts. I'm not sure if I'm brave enough... "

It's also brilliant and engrossing and made out of everything awesome on the planet :)


message 35: by Fairy / Anna (new)

Fairy / Anna Aiko, how convincing :D I gather up the courage.
So many people have told me already that it's worth reading... Sigh.
I have to, I have, I have to [chant]


message 36: by Aiko (new)

Aiko Weasel wrote: "Aiko wrote: "Weasel wrote: " I'd love to read a story about a femme bottom who goes all bad-ass psychopathic mofo when his big manly protector gets put in real danger. "

Read ICoS!"

But it's so L..."


*facepalm*


message 37: by Aiko (new)

Aiko Weasel wrote: "Aiko wrote: "*facepalm*"

Seriously, Aiko. I cannot stand longwinded writing. It's a very rare book that needs to be longer than 300 pages. Remember, I rarely read fanfic or online fic either. ..."


Mjeh, I get it :) It is pretty rambling at points.
I just love it so that I get all "WHYYY would anyone not read this? it makes no sense!!"
I have the same reaction when people say they don't like chocolate.


message 38: by Ayanna (new)

Ayanna ...so, what's ICoS?


message 39: by Experiment BL626 (new)

Experiment BL626 Ayanna wrote: "...so, what's ICoS?"

This series: Evenfall


message 40: by [deleted user] (new)

Weasel wrote: "Aiko wrote: "*facepalm*"

Seriously, Aiko. I cannot stand longwinded writing. It's a very rare book that needs to be longer than 300 pages. Remember, I rarely read fanfic or online fic either. ..."


Don't do it, Daniel. Somewhere I have all my hair tearing out comments from wading through Evenfall. It took me more than two weeks to read it because I kept getting so frustrated and tossing it...then I had to go back to see what happened next. I eventually got hooked on the story but OMG the journey to that point was painful!!! Now admittedly that was BEFORE their first edit. But I don't think it has been fixed enough, given what I read on people's status updates.


message 41: by Aiko (new)

Aiko Kate, you know I love you, but right now I'm glaring. So much! And frowning!
You were the one pushing it on me...You just wanted to see me cry. Admit it.


message 42: by Lenore (new)

Lenore Aiko wrote: "Kate, you know I love you, but right now I'm glaring. So much! And frowning!
You were the one pushing it on me...You just wanted to see me cry. Admit it."


She does that to everyone, Aiko. She's the evil scientist and we're her lab rats.


message 43: by Aiko (last edited Nov 21, 2012 11:13AM) (new)

Aiko Lenore wrote: "Aiko wrote: "Kate, you know I love you, but right now I'm glaring. So much! And frowning!
You were the one pushing it on me...You just wanted to see me cry. Admit it."

She does that to everyone, ..."


I read ICoS for science!
Best experiment ever.


message 44: by Aiko (new)

Aiko Weasel wrote: "Aiko wrote: "I have the same reaction when people say they don't like chocolate."

There's "like" as in "this flavor does not offend me, I do not object to placing more of this in my food hole."

T..."


Mine and yours tastebuds are not related. At all.


message 45: by [deleted user] (new)

LOL. You all have much higher pain thresholds than I do. Daniel, not so much. I am being kind here. Hard as that is to believe.


message 46: by Lenore (last edited Nov 21, 2012 11:28AM) (new)

Lenore Kate wrote: "LOL. You all have much higher pain thresholds than I do. Daniel, not so much. I am being kind here. Hard as that is to believe."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You pushed it like crazy on us poor unsophisticated souls and now you're being kind to Daniel's genteel taste. Talk about making chalk of one and cheese of the other. Bah!


message 47: by Isa (new)

Isa K. Weasel wrote: "There's "like" as in "this flavor does not offend me, I do not object to placing more of this in my food hole."

Then theres "like" as in "I will perform degrading acts to obtain more of this substance.""


....I need that on a poster or something o.o


message 48: by Experiment BL626 (new)

Experiment BL626 Isa wrote: "Weasel wrote: "There's "like" as in "this flavor does not offend me, I do not object to placing more of this in my food hole."

Then theres "like" as in "I will perform degrading acts to obtain mor..."


No. On a T-shirt. I would buy that.


message 49: by Isa (new)

Isa K. Meh~ Too much text for a T-shirt ... plus one has to factor in boobs. Boobs make normal designs suddenly disturbing O.O


message 50: by Experiment BL626 (new)

Experiment BL626 When I grow up, I wanna be famous
I wanna be a star, I wanna be in movies
When I grow up, I wanna see the world
Drive nice cars, I wanna have boobies

♪ ♫ ♪ ♫


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