I'm curious...
So here's something that's been bothering me. The m/m writer's bane: pronouns. Using "he" can get confusing when there's more than one, so what are your options? Using names, which can get repetitive and distracting, using other phrases that are descriptive, i.e., the brown-haired man, the blond, the other man... I generally try to use some combination, but invariably I get comments from readers complaining about any of the methods.
So, as a reader, what reads more smoothly to you? If you write, how do you prefer to handle it?
Hope you're all having a good weekend! I'm off todrool over watch Daniel Craig and Ben Whishaw in Skyfall...
Jack
So, as a reader, what reads more smoothly to you? If you write, how do you prefer to handle it?
Hope you're all having a good weekend! I'm off to
Jack
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Cindi
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Nov 10, 2012 07:48PM
"He" does get confusing at times because both mains are male. But I would prefer to be a bit confused than read "the younger man" or "the older man" over and over.... or worse, "the blue eyed man" or anything along those lines. While these work if used on occasion, the constant use (as in every other paragraph or so) gets old quick. I would prefer to see names or "he" than too much of the others I mentioned. But that's just me. :)
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I don't mind he or a name. I don't want 'the blue eyed man' or 'the brown haired man,' that sounds too impersonal in an intimate genre. I can handle 'the younger man' or 'the older man,' smattered throughout, because that can be quite sexy to me; especially given I like an age difference and, at times, I like it rammed home :) :)
That's exactly what I think. I try to mix it up, but someone is always going to not like it, I think! Thanks for replying!Cindi wrote: ""He" does get confusing at times because both mains are male. But I would prefer to be a bit confused than read "the younger man" or "the older man" over and over.... or worse, "the blue eyed man"..."
Haha, I have a thing about age differences myself, so I completely understand. Thanks!Kazza wrote: "I don't mind he or a name. I don't want 'the blue eyed man' or 'the brown haired man,' that sounds too impersonal in an intimate genre. I can handle 'the younger man' or 'the older man,' smattered ..."
I would much rather prefer 'he' or the character's name. If the sentence is constructed well, then I don't find any confusion with who the writer is talking about.Like Kazza said I don't mind something like "Jack gazed up at the older/younger man." I just don't like reading too much description like brown-haired, French, American, blue-eyed, etc. For some reason too much detail like that makes me feel distanced from the characters and story.
I think what is most effective is when you just have to speak of both in a sentence, use the name of one and pronouns for the other. I'm the opposite of Cindi. I HATE to be confused about who is sayin/doing what. I'd rather be slightly annoyed by using descriptors than not know who was performing the action. I do find overuse of names to only be less annoying than being confused.
Perhaps tis is why first person doesn't bother me. The Is, mes, and mys go with the current POV. But that's a whole other kettle of fish; isn't it?
I know what you mean. I think the key here is not to overuse any one way of writing... Thanks for the input!Penumbra wrote: "I would much rather prefer 'he' or the character's name. If the sentence is constructed well, then I don't find any confusion with who the writer is talking about.
Like Kazza said I don't mind som..."
Hmm, first person POV would make it easier, wouldn't it? But sometimes I feel like first person is too intimate. I agree with you, though, the most annoying thing is having to reread to figure out who's doing what. Thanks so much for replying, this is all really interesting!Melanie~~ wrote: "I think what is most effective is when you just have to speak of both in a sentence, use the name of one and pronouns for the other.
I'm the opposite of Cindi. I HATE to be confused about who is ..."
Jack wrote: "Hmm, first person POV would make it easier, wouldn't it? But sometimes I feel like first person is too intimate. I agree with you, though, the most annoying thing is having to reread to figure out ..."About the writing intimacy of first person. I won't write. I beta. I have an author friend who was just published. She writes in first person. It's where she started. When she took a stab at third person, it wasn't easy for her. It was a real struggle and didn't help that it was a foursome. I'm afraid I wasn't much help to her with constructive criticism with that particular story.
Her writing was much more detached than it usually was. We talked about it, and I offered that it seemed that she was trying to write her characters while watching through a HazMat suit instead of being in their heads and knowing what they are thinking and feeling.
Definitely shows how everyone had what works for them.
Good luck, Jack.
Jack wrote: "Hmm, first person POV would make it easier, wouldn't it? But sometimes I feel like first person is too intimate. I agree with you, though, the most annoying thing is having to reread to figure out ..."Actually, I find too often that first is not intimate at all. Over half the time I read first person stories, the author writes the character in such a way that I feel distanced from the MC. The MC comes out monotone, boring, lacking personality and I can't picture them in my head. Although the secondary characters will most likely be colorful and full of expression. So I really don't like reading first person stories. I find that most of the time first person will be lacking in the intimate feel I need to see through the MCs eyes and to empathize with them. If a book is written in first person, it definitely weighs into my decision of purchasing it. Unless I've read the author and know they can carry it off, or if I read a long excerpt and get immediately sucked into the first person, usually I will pass. Yeah, I guess that's it. If I don't get immediately sucked into the first person within the first few pages, I know it's not going to work for me for the rest of the book. I can immediately think of one story, written free here on GR, that within the first few paragraphs I could feel the MC's personality even though it was written in first person. Now that to me is good character building.
there is no reason to dump 3rd person PoV; it's really just a matter of clear writing. i especially enjoy close third person limited (where the viewpoint often shifts between the people involved), because that allows me to get into all of their heads. but it requires skill. it's too bad that the price point for genre romance is so low that getting a good editor for your book is normally not in the stars. because it really helps to have a competent analyst comb through your story before publication.who you're talking about in a scene shouldn't ever be confusing. if it's confusing, rewrite the sentence or paragraph. take a few books you love and where you never ever stop to wonder who the writer is talking about, and analyze how the authors handle this; you'll see it's nothing special, just judicious focus.
pronouns and "he said" constructs just sort of melt into the narrative, while special gyrations to avoid repetition draw attention to themselves. which you don't want, because that's not the point of your story. names can be overdone more easily than pronouns, but you can get away with them a lot more than descriptors. i prefer pronouns, names, and only very occasionally a descriptor the person you're writing about would actually think of in that moment.
that last part is important. don't just throw a descriptor in there because a pronoun would be confusing, and you want to avoid rewriting. "he looked up at the older man" might make sense if the age gap matters to "him"; "he looked up at the architect" will only read smoothly if there is a reason why "he" is thinking of the other man as an architect in that moment, otherwise it will throw me a little out of the story because my mind will want to know what the significance of the other's profession is at this time. or worse, i might have forgotten his profession (because the writer has failed to make it important), and now i am wondering who that third man in the room is and where he suddenly came from. and eye/hair colour as a descriptor? please, don't. it is hideously overdone, especially with "exotic" colours.
really obvious typesetting also helps -- new paragraph for every shift in focus.
piranha wrote: "there is no reason to dump 3rd person PoV; it's really just a matter of clear writing. i especially enjoy close third person limited (where the viewpoint often shifts between the people involved)..."I agree with you on this. I was referencing the 'Jack looked up at the older/younger man' because Jack mentioned he liked age differences, as do I :) So in a story for a character to mention the age difference, it would hit an emotional chord in me, especially if it came during an intimate moment.
