Joe Riggs's Blog

Joe Navarro – The Spycatcher

Not many can say they were personally approached to join the FBI, but this is exactly what happened to Joe Navarro while he was working as a police officer at the tender age of 23. He accepted their offer and became one of the youngest agents ever to join the renowned investigative agency.

Joe spent the next 25 years at the FBI, working both as an agent and supervisor in the areas of counterintelligence and counter-terrorism Through his work he was able to study, refine and apply the science of non-verbal communications. His acumen in this field and his success as a spy-catcher, led Joe to begin training FBI agents and the intelligence community. Retiring from the FBI in 2003, and meeting overwhelming demand for his notable insights into human behavior, Joe has dedicated himself to speaking and consulting with major corporations worldwide.

Today Joe is recognized as one of the world’s foremost authorities on reading non-verbal communications and he is regularly interviewed on programs such as NBC’s Today Show, Fox News, ABC’s Good Morning America, CBS’ Early Show, and for publications such as The Washington Post and Psychology Today.

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Mr. Navarro was kind enough to agree to answering some questions for myself and the readers of this blog. His answers were insightful and delightful in every way, and yes, we even briefly discussed Sherlock Holmes. Let’s jump right into it…

Mr. Navarro, you have spent your life studying, utilizing and teaching the science of nonverbal communication. You spent 25 years in the FBI using your skills to catch spies. You started out as a police officer and were personally approached by the FBI to join, what do you feel it was that caused them to seek you out?

I think at the time the FBI was looking for individuals with certain skills. I had graduated from the Utah police academy and was working as an investigator/detective, I had a pilot’s license, and I had majored in criminology so perhaps one or more of these were things they were looking for. I never asked exactly what it was they were interested in because frankly I was so grateful to get the job offer. It’s not every day they send you an application and ask you to fill it out. In all honesty, I thought 23 was kind of young to be asked to join the Bureau, but I am glad they did and in the end, it worked out but to this day I don’t know what it was they saw in me.

Well it’s more than clear that they made the right choice. So, h ow did your interest in the science of nonverbal communication begin, at what age did you realize you wanted to study this very fascinating subject?

I came to the US as an immigrant and as all immigrants you count on the lingua franca of nonverbals to guide you especially if you don’t speak English, which I didn’t. It wasn’t till I got into law enforcement that I realized everything we do in law enforcement has to do with body language. In fact, I have always wondered why police academies spend so much time on certain subjects when in reality the majority of the time should be spent on how to interview people and interpret body language because in the end, that is all we do, whether you are a street cop, customs officer, or counterintelligence agent.

That’s an extremely good point. So I have to ask, you are known as “Spycatcher” for your years of work for the FBI catching spies, can you give us just one example of how nonverbal communication enabled you to successfully catch a spy?

I was asked to interview an individual who was not suspected of any crime but had merely worked on a military base in Germany where a spy had been arrested. I thought it would be a short interview but after a half hour or so, I asked this person if he knew the name of an individual named Clyde who had worked on that military base (the name of the spy who had been arrested but the public was not aware). When I mentioned Clyde’s name, his cigarette shook in his hands just like a needle on a polygraph machine. I noted it and went on, later I repeated Clyde’s name and sure enough the cigarette trembled once more. That alone told me something was there and in the end, after many interviews, this interviewee confessed to being partners with Clyde in espionage.

Wow, thank you for sharing that story. What a perfect example of how these skills can be used in the right hands!

Your books have been a huge inspiration to myself and my work. My specialty has always been reading people yet your books took me to a whole new level. Since you retired from the FBI in 2003 you’ve been focused on writing and teaching. Do you get a lot of emails and testimonies from people that are using your teachings to empower themselves and their lives?

I love to teach and even while I was in the FBI going back to 1984 I was teaching in one form or another. Over the years people have been very kind in thanking me for either the lectures I have given or the books I have written. I have received letters from Malaysia, Turkey, China, Europe, Australia, Pacific Islands, all over the world, from people thanking me for What Every Body is Saying. For many, that book made it easy for them to understand body language. It is very gratifying because I wrote it due to the fact that I wish I had been taught body language and not like in many of the books that I had to sift through in the 70-80s. What Every Body is Saying is now in 27 languages and is in use with many law enforcement agencies around the world as well as in numerous universities.

That is wonderful to hear, that book alone has been the bible in my house for many years. I could rave about it endlessly and generally do. But I digress.

As most people know my lifelong inspiration has been Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s beloved fictional consulting detective Sherlock Holmes. He had the uncanny ability to read people in seconds. I can’t help but ask, are you indeed a fan of the Sherlock Holmes stories?

I love the books and I suspect that somewhere along the line those books influenced me either consciously or subconsciously. However, you quickly realize, at least I did, that to have that level of awareness you would have to be not just a world class observer but also an anthropologist, sociologist, ethnographer, chemist, botanist, and so on and I am not any of that. I wish I could decipher cultures as he did. I think that observation skills are key to any profession and so if books inspire us to become better observers even if they are fiction, so much the better. A lot of students ask me what they should study because they want to go into law enforcement. They are surprised when I say that the most useful classes for me in college were in anthropology because it teaches you to observe people, groups, cultures, and behaviors. I have to say that focus was most rewarding in my career.

That is one of the most insightful pieces of advice in this area I think I’ve ever heard. Not all of us can be blessed with the fictional advantage of knowing everything, about everything, haha. Yet the areas you mention are certainly the most advantageous in this department. Thank you.

So, in your opinion how reliable is the reading of body language and non verbals? How much can one really ascertain from reading these unspoken cues?

I think that quite a lot is very reliable, or at least I have found it to be so. Studies have shown that most people are 75% accurate in reading others and you can become quite proficient at deciphering social class, education, background, personality, fears, thoughts, intentions from behavior. That is to say, you are not judging people, you are assessing them to see what it is they are transmitting about themselves. We transmit so much information as any parent will tell you if we but observe. Obviously sometimes we are wrong, but that is why we test and validate in context so we can build on that experience.

What do you feel is one of the most common misconceptions about lie detection, or detecting deception?

In order: That it is easy; that anyone can be trained to do it; That all you have to do is look for micro-expressions; That it’s primarily what law enforcement officers look for. First of all it is not easy. Most people are only accurate 50% of the time, that is a coin toss, even among trained investigators. There are a very few people, perhaps less than 1% that can do it above chance but even then that is or may be only in a laboratory setting. Micro-expressions have become the new fad in nonverbals in the same way that kinesics had notoriety back in the 80s. Micro expressions are rare and even rarer to see because in law enforcement unlike television, most interviews, 97% are done out doors in poor lighting (6pm to 2am is when most police departments are interview active). The fact is that in law enforcement we look for all behaviors from the body and often what we look for is not deception, we expect criminals to lie, but rather what causes them stress. If we ask, “is the money in the house, in the car, in the yard, or in the suitcase,” and they show signs of stress when you cay car, who cares if they lie or don’t answer at all; they just revealed what threatens them, fear of discovery of the money in the car. Most people overrate the detecting of deception in criminal cases. What is more important is detecting information that is of lead or probative value and that often has nothing to do with deception but the stress that is shown when an investigator probes a particular detail.

I could not agree more. I see many experts getting caught up in a current fad or focusing on ‘one’ technique above all others. I love that you put the emphasis on observing every single thing a person is transmitting, not just one technique or area of study. So now for a more fun question that comes from my own personal experiences. When being introduced to new people that are familiar with you and your work, do you encounter the often slightly humorous situation of a person being nervous to talk to you for the first time?

God yes. I often hear the person say, “I am so nervous I don’t know what to do with my hands.” I tell my friends please don’t tell others what I do, introduce me as a parking lot attendant but not as a nonverbal expert.

Ha! I can certainly identify with this. However I don’t think it would take a nonverbal expert to conclude that you’re no parking lot attendant.

So, apart from your own work and teachings, what direction would you point someone in that wants to get started in the study of nonverbal communication? Who are your inspirations?

Read, read, read. I offer a free nonverbal communications bibliography to those who follow me on twitter (@navarrotells) or who write to me at www.jnforensics.com. There is really no better way – read competent books by authorities on the subject. I have been influenced by Charles Darwin, Desmond Morris, Mark Frank, Maureen O’Sullivan, Joe Kulis, Bella DePaulo, Paul Ekman, David Givens, David Matsumoto, Judee Burgoon, Aldert Vrij to name a few. I hate to make lists like that because you always leave people out and the fact is that many people in law enforcement also helped me to see things that no researcher or scientist will ever see because spies, terrorists, and criminals don’t sign up for lab experiments. I would also caution readers on books that oversimplify the detection of deception; unfortunately there is a lot of junk out there.

Very nice! It’s good to be able to filter out all the ‘fluff’ that’s out there and find the real meat, thanks for that and thank you so much for taking the time to answer a few questions for myself and my readership. The last thing I want to ask you is this: One of the early things I had to learn in the science of reading people is that basing a conclusion or deduction on just ‘one’ signal alone is detrimental to getting a proper read. How much time do you spend establishing a baseline, or, how many ‘signals’ do you need to gather before you feel comfortable making a conclusion. Is there a set art to this area of reading people? To avoid mis-reading a movement or signal…

Life is a movie not a picture. You want to spend as much time as possible with someone where there is no stress so you can get a read on what their normal state is like. Preferably when they are with friends or relaxed. But always remember a person can change attitudes in an instant because of a phone call, a social slight (someone fails to say good morning), or a thought (did I pay my mortgage this month?) which can change a person’s outward appearance in an instant. What we then see has nothing to do with the business at hand but rather with a thought or observation that is now affecting that person. In my own work I have made mistakes in interpreting what I saw and that is why I always try to validate my observations. For example, I once interviewed a woman who was very nervous and looked like she was hiding something. As time moved on she was even more tense more anxious not less, even though I had not gotten deep into the subject of the inquiry. Being the trained professional I thought, surely she has something to hide, I am seeing all the behaviors (neck touching, compressed lips, ventilating of her blouse). When I finally asked her if she wanted to confess to something she had done she said, “No” but she was worried because when she parked her car she only had enough quarters for the meter for a half hour and the meter was going to run out and she didn’t have any more quarters. I read the behaviors right, but it was her fear of getting a ticket that caused the behaviors. In the end, she wasn’t even the right person we were looking for – someone had stolen her identity. So you can read the behaviors right but you need to know context and what is at the root of the behavior. Sometimes you have to ask.

How very true, and what a wonderful example!

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Well friends I hope you found Mr. Navarro’s answers as insightful and informative as I certainly did. I am extremely honored that he took the time to answer a few questions and share his fascinating teachings and perspectives with us. For more information about Joe Navarro and his brilliant books and articles please take a minute and visit the links below:

Joe’s official website: http://www.jnforensics.com

Joe Navarro on Twitter: www.Twitter.com/NavarroTells

Joe’s “Spycatcher” blog at Psychology Today: www.psychologytoday.com/blog/spycatcher

A short video with Joe discussing “The Art of Influence.” http://archive.org/details/JoeNavarrosTheArtOfInfluencemanagerialEdition

Joe’s books, which I HIGHLY recommend to anyone interested in nonverbal communication and speed reading people. Here are a few of my favorites:

What Every BODY is Saying: An Ex-FBI Agent’s Guide to Speed-Reading People

Body Language Essentials

It’s Not All About Me: The Top Ten Techniques for Building Quick Rapport with Anyone by Robin Dreeke

Louder Than Words: Take Your Career from Average to Exceptional with the Hidden Power of Nonverbal Intelligence

Clues to Deceit: A Practical List

How to Spot a Histrionic Personality

How to Spot a Psychopath