Fanmail FAQ: The F Word.
Dear Pat,
Life got busy for me early on this year, and I fell behind reading your blog. But now that school’s started back up again, I’ve been able to catch up by reading back through the archives during my more boring lectures.
So I’ve got a couple of questions. Well…. honestly, I have a couple hundred questions I could ask you. But I’ll limit myself to two that came to me from a blog you wrote back in April.
You talked about going to see Cabin in the Woods. And in that blog you said:
“My plan i...
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Michael
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Oct 01, 2012 03:14PM
The thing about the spooning... What's strange is that my girlfriend was just mentioning this to me last night. Says I'll be the small spoon, but we'll see... We will see...
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One of the most substantive things I've read in a while. Made me think about my own perspective of feminism. Thanks, Pat!
I agree Brock... Some people really lack perspective..
els, definitely awesome comments, and i agree completely. saying that you "lack perspective" is particularly ironic.
I'd normally agree with the other male commenters, but since this was a blog post mostly about feminism I think els is completely justified. good job.
There is nothing ironic about it.A pinup calendar with beautiful women is by definition not for everyone, but for those who like to look at beautiful women (and that’s not just men, and it’s not all men).
Who ever said that everything had to be in everyones taste?
I could understand it if the issue being raised was the general sexualization in books and tv
(I’m thinking here of the large amounts of trash PNR books, the increasing amount of sex scenes in tv-series etc) And that a pinup calendar of otherwise unsexual characters therefore would be in bad taste.
But when Els says it’s fantastic when they are doing male pinups as well, that shows me that wasn’t her problem. In fact her problem can by definition not be a question of equality, since if a female pinup calendar is demeaning towards women, then a male pinup calendar would be equally demeaning towards men.
So what’s the deal here, equality is demeaning everyone equally?
Maybe we should all get naked ? no.. bad idea..
I hereby forbid everyone from taking their clothes off, im sorry, but it’s a necessary precaution to prevent anyone from being offended. (that was ironic)
I think it’s great when strong women take a stand when they are being treated unequally or unfairly, and the fact is in many aspects of life they are, therefore I think it shows a lack of perspective to create problems where there are none, when there are so many real problems to deal with..
The underrepresentation of women in politics and in managing positions, the suppression of women in Afrika and the middle-east, sex-trafficking and so on..
In this case I think Els is using “feminism” as a stick to hit other people with, and that’s very counterproductive, considering feminism otherwise being a positive thing..
@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of this entry, where he says to be civilized and have polite discourse. While neither of your comments are troll-worthy, they certainly add nothing to the conversation and are, in fact, dismissive.Many people nowadays like to tell others that they shouldn't take X or Y so seriously. (Whether it be "things people say on the Internet" or "Cartoon calendars".) But considering that the Internet is a daily and primary form of communication for millions of people, I think we SHOULD take its content seriously. Here, Mr. Rothfuss opened up the discussion and Els voiced an opinion. You are both free to disagree with her opinion, but you should be able to articulate your stance instead of just dismissing hers as if it doesn't matter.
"Cartoon calendars"--indeed any representation of people, fictional or real--can be reflective of society's general view of those people, and thus are worthy of discussion without condescending dismissal.
@Mab: I'm going to throw in a few links here for further reading. Please don't ignore them.
First off, you're arguing from the perspective of a false equivalence. Els' issue with how she originally perceived the calendar (being only female pin-ups) is part of the larger issue of the patriarchy, which subtly and overtly enforces the idea that women are just objects: they are just there for visual pleasure, and their opinions can be dismissed or their bodies can be handled or controlled by others without permission. (Note: I am pulling the focus out further from just the calendar issue because 1) Mr. Rothfuss' original blog was about feminism in general and 2) the overall context is relevant.)
The patriarchy is also detrimental to men in the long run, but still it does favor the male perspective. Please see this article (it talks about comic books specifically but the topic is still relevant): http://goodcomics.comicbookresources....
In short: images of women are portrayed as the male ideal of a woman. Images of men are ALSO portrayed as the male ideal of a man. Of course individual tastes will vary, but I am talking about this from the general perspective of patriarchy.
SO, this is not an issue of equality the way you are arguing it, because in general society women are hypersexualized FAR more often than men and thus start at a disadvantaged position in the patriarchal scheme (I think the link earlier mentions that most female body types represented in comics are essentially porn star bodies, not athletes, which would be more realistic. Even female superheroes are hypersexualized). The other issue is that even when images of men are sexualized, they are usually still done so in a way that empowers the man, whereas when images of women are sexualized they are usually done in a way that turns them into objects.
To bring focus back to the calendar: in Els’ original comment she was expressing disappointment that the calendar appeared to buy into this societal trend of hypersexualizing powerful women while not including male counterparts—she was corrected and admitted she had been misinformed. But here’s where your false equivalence comes in: IF someone is going to create a pin-up calendar—so already we know this will be people/characters in somewhat suggestive clothing and positions—then it IS equal to include both male and female people/characters. It’s acknowledging that female fans want some cheesecake just as much as male fans do. It’s acknowledging that both of these fantasies should be indulged. To me, feminism is about this kind of equality—where women’s opinions and desires are acknowledged as equally important and relevant as men’s, and worthy of the same consideration and attention.
To clarify further: if the calendar were just including depictions of fictional characters, and only the male ones were done in a pin-up fashion, then your argument would hold more weight (but still most likely the images would be skewed through a male’s ideal (see previous paragraphs). This Shortpacked comic summarizes this point nicely: http://www.themarysue.com/shortpacked...).
I’m not sure if you read Mr. Rothfuss’ post all the way through before commenting either, as he clearly states that everyone’s definition of feminism tends to differ. So your last two paragraphs are also rather dismissive in tone, instead of acknowledging that Els’ opinion is her prerogative even if you disagree (I think it’s clear that you and she differ in your definitions of feminism). And as I said to Brock and Michael Thrower, trying to say this issue doesn’t matter or that she should find some “real” issue to worry about is condescending. As I hope I’ve explained, this issue with the calendar is reflective of the larger problems with a patriarchal society and thus is worthy of discussion, and it all ties back into feminism.
Most of the discussions I see on this issue take place in the context of comics, because I read a number of comics regularly, but I do have some other links to share: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/08... (and its follow-up: http://www.comicsalliance.com/2012/08...)
And this spoof Avengers poster offers a good visualization of the male perspective applied to female and male bodies: http://www.worldofsuperheroes.com/sup...
Nicole wrote: "@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of this entry, where he says to be civilized and have polite discourse. While neither of your comm..."I didn't see any uncivilized or impolite discussion. Just a few people giving their opinion. I don't have one, so I'm not discussing this. I'm just reading everything everyone posts and making my own opinions from it. So far, I agree with what Mab said. I also never said this issue didn't matter, stop using my name in everything. I'm not a story book hero.
Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of this entry, where he says to be civilized and have polite discourse. While neith..."Ah, I've learned my lesson that I should take screencaps in the future. I see your reply to Brock that said "Boom. Owned." (in agreement with his dismissal of Els' initial comment) has been removed since my comment was posted. That, of course, was the comment I was addressing and why I mentioned you in my comment. The second mention of your name is just to tie together all the points in my comment. Considering the length of my original comment, I didn't think using your name twice was using it "in everything".
Also, just to clarify, when I said people were saying this issue doesn't matter, I was talking about the implications of Brock's statement and your as-since deleted agreement with it (as well as the end of Mab's comment, "I think it shows a lack of perspective to create problems where there are none, when there are so many real problems to deal with"): telling someone to "Find something real to worry about" does indeed imply what they are currently worrying about doesn't matter/isn't important. It's also condescending. Nobody has the right to tell someone else what's important (i.e., what a "real problem" is) to them and what issues they should be concerned with.
I think N.K. Jemisin's (author participant in the calendar and vocal equal rights blogger) take on the calendar adds some good perspective on it.http://nkjemisin.com/2012/09/forthcom...
Basically she says that she was apprehensive at first but after chatting with the artist and the selection of one of her female characters who is hedonistic and unselfconscious enough that she would totally go for being featured in a pin-up calendar made her decide to go with it.
Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of this entry, where he says to be civilized and have polite discou..."Boom. Owned.
(Sorry, it was just so fitting that I couldn't help myself.)
KevinB wrote: "I think N.K. Jemisin's (author participant in the calendar and vocal equal rights blogger) take on the calendar adds some good perspective on it.http://nkjemisin.com/2012/09/forthcom...
Ba..."
Thanks for that link, Kevin. I think you're right that her take on it adds perspective. I also like knowing she considered it so carefully before allowing one of her characters to be included.
Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of this entry, where he says to be civilized and have polite discou..."Are you planning on making a book? You type too much for such a small thing to say. Boom. Owned. Was that too offensive? I'm sorry.
Also, on a smaller note. The opinions and discussions might go better if you don't get so touchy on the subject. I'm not against feminism. I hardly know enough to have a valid opinion. Els side of it and Mab's both seem interesting and I'm not going against either. Yet, when I read Els, it did seem more of what Mab was talking about. Everyone deserves equal rights, okay I agree with that, but from what I read of Els and Mab's, he seemed to have more of a lightened view on it. Now I don't think Els had a very dark point in what she wrote, simply because she didn't know the other half of the story. So when I first read over hers, it didn't sound like much of an opinion, but more of an attack. That's why I said what I said in response to Brock. I should have said something earlier, apologizing to Els, but Nicole jumps in on a rage and starts pointing fingers and only furthering the cause. So Els, I am sorry about that, and Nicole, calm down on all the finger pointing. No need to make this a big hate party.
Michael wrote: "Are you planning on making a book? You type too much for such a small thing to say. Boom. Owned. Was that too offensive? I'm sorry."Not offensive. Just immature and irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Are you planning on making a book? You type too much for such a small thing to say. Boom. Owned. Was that too offensive? I'm sorry."Not offensive. Just immature and irrelevant to ..."
Okay, well since it's irrelevant and immature, do you mind if we drop it? Instead of jumping in and getting all flustered up and defensive, you could have been a bit more calm and let things go rather than pushing it on and over the edge.
Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of this entry, where he says to be civilized and hav..."Just for the record: I really did learn my lesson. Here's Michael's original comment before it was edited:
That is what I was replying to. As for his now-edited comment, I'll just let it stand on its own.
Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of this entry, where he says to be c..."It's obvious I edited it. That's why I made a second paragraph. I know that's what you replied to, that's why I posted again. Does editing bother you like everything else in the world? Go talk to whoever runs the site about that problem. Really though, now I see, Els was just stating an opinion and concern. You're bullying. What I said earlier (which I did delete) was obnoxious and rude, and I've said sorry. So you can settle down. I didn't change anything I said either in the earlier comment, I just added to it.
Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of this entry, where ..."I don't know about Nicole, but all the back pedaling and editing does annoy me.
If you'd think things through before hitting post, then maybe you didn't have to get all flustered and defensive while trying to bully someone into dropping an argument you yourself keep adding fuel too.
You're not really helping your cause by trying to paint someone as irrational and (dare I say it?) hysterical, while you're the one throwing around accusations and ad hominem arguments.
KevinB wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "Michael wrote: "Nicole wrote: "@Brock and @Michael Thrower: I think you both need to go to Mr. Rothfuss' blog and read to the end of th..."Yes, bully someone into dropping an argument. You're very contradicting and (dare I say it?) hysterical. Why are you even in this conversation in the first place? To do exactly what you say I'm doing, adding fuel.
els wrote: "at this point i'm finding myself not super interested in what michael did/did not mean or say or edit. but i think we can all agree that it's better to think before you post. let's move on, shall w..."Thank you. I wasn't even one of the guys who said much. All I said was "Boom. Owned." I deleted it because everyone was getting in a big dick over it. I suppose I added to it because I kept responding. Don't feed the trolls.
I would like to keep reading the discussions between people like you and Mab. That was interesting.
@els and NicoleYour views are too extreme and aggressive for us to have any real debate, this is not me arguing with you, it’s just me standing up for myself. After this post I’m done with this topic, because the tone here is pretty toxic.
I disagree that sexualization of women in itself is a bad thing.
That I should be unable to respect a woman, consider her my equal, and be turned on by her at the same time I find offensive. (And don’t tell me men can’t multitask)
That me looking at some pinup models is based in some inner need in me to suppress and objectify women in general, is simply wrong and it’s a pretty nasty accusation.
My perspective when speaking about feminism is from a legal viewpoint.
I believe that women have the right to be treated as is their right by law.
(In my case, since I’m an European, the European Human Rights Court).
That right consists of not being discriminated against because of ones gender and enjoy all the rights in the convention on equal terms with everyone else, since all the genders are of equal value.
EHC is a real tool to fight discrimination and unevenness in society with, and there is plenty of work being done by the EHC. Enforcing and supporting womens rights is what I understand by feminism.
It’s not discrimination when someone markets a product targeted primarily towards women or towards men.
That’s just cold green logic.
Superhero comic books is mostly targeted towards teenage boys, and so they are drawn in a way that would appeal to those.
There are probably comic books targeted towards women as well (don’t know, don’t read comics), and if the way they are drawn don’t appeal to women, then the writer have obviously failed to understand his target audience, and will be punished by the target group not buying the product.
PNR books is mostly targeted towards women, so the men on the cover of those are super buff with bare chests and so forth. Those pictures are carefully chosen to appeal to women, and I can honestly tell you that I don’t feel empowered by them.
It’s supermodels, that don’t look anything like normal men, and the situation is exactly the same as it is with the busty superheroines. It’s an unrealistic standard for real life, and I think the vast majority understands that.
That’s how a free market works, the consumers directly influence the products.
What the consumer wants, the consumer gets.
Women are just as much consumers as men (if not more so, if we are speaking demographic) so to try to paint a picture of women not being heard or taken seriously when it comes to products is just plain wrong.
You are both trying pretty aggressively to portray men as violent bullies and bigots, and women as their general victims. I’m a man, and you know nothing about me, don’t tell me you know what my motives are just because I’m a man, that is showing the same sort of ignorant bigotry that I would think contradicts the values behind Feminism.
I won’t have on me that I’m discriminating against anyone, or that gender plays a role when I’m assessing the value of somebodies opinions, I make a personal point of disliking everybody equally, and if it seems I’m disliking someone a bit more than others, then it’s personal.
What you are waving around as feminism isn’t anything as tangible as a legal standard, it’s just your own personally defined moral standard, and we don’t all have to duck every time you swing it.
Rothfuss is an author, and his public image is important for his career, he does have to duck when someone imply that he is a bigot.
You are not the suppressed here, you are not even a minority, you are bullies who couldn’t just let a fun little calendar just be a fun little calendar.
Mab wrote: "@els and NicoleYour views are too extreme and aggressive for us to have any real debate, this is not me arguing with you, it’s just me standing up for myself. After this post I’m done with this t..."
"“I hate them!” Ell spat, surprising me with her sudden rage. “I hate men!” Her knuckles were white as she gripped Greytail’s reins. Her face twisted into a mask of anger. Krin put her arms around Ell, but when she looked at me I saw the sentiment reflected quietly in her dark eyes.
“You have every right to hate them,” I said, feeling more anger and helplessness than ever before in my life. “But I’m a man too. Not all of us are like that.””
Wise Man's Fear - Page 874, by Patrick Rothfuss.
Well spoken, Mab. You just went Kvothe on us.
