INTERVIEW: Jackson Dickert from Between Two Perns

Author Jackson Dickert is what happens when you give a Brandon Sanderson fanboy a camera, a marketing job, and absolutely no supervision. He’s also the host of the aggressively charming YouTube series Between Two Perns and head of marketing at Campfire, a platform for writing, planning, and sharing stories. In his spare time, he is an aficionado of all things ray-like (the aquatic kind, not the eyewear). He sat down with me to discuss writing, bad decisions disguised as creativity, how Sanderson accidentally named his show, and his passion for all things science fiction and fantasy.

[GdM] What is Between Two Perns, and what possessed you to start it?

[jDik] Between Two Perns is my completely original concept for a satirical author interview YouTube series. The uncultured may be more familiar with Between Two Ferns with Zach Galifianakis. On Between Two Perns, I ask questions ranging from the ignorant/stupid to the blatantly aggressive about the author, their career, and their books. It’s all in good fun, and the authors know what they’re getting into in advance. 

As for what possessed me to start it, the paranormal entity in question would be Brandon Sanderson. In 2023, Dragonsteel flew me and others out to Salt Lake to film the Yumi and the Nightmare Painter book club video series. I can’t say enough good things about what kind and gracious hosts he, his family, and his team are. While we were there, Brandon took time out of his busy day to give all of his guests time to make content with him, only… I had no idea we would be getting such an incredible opportunity.

I tried to think of what on Earth I could ask him about writing and worldbuilding or his books that he hadn’t already been asked a dozen times. I came to the conclusion that I am not smarter than the average Sanderfan, because I had nothing. I decided to lean into my strengths: What if I asked him the dumbest questions imaginable?

I’d been a massive fan of his work for many years, so I quickly wrote moronic questions based on his career and books. When we sat down to record the show, he asked what it was called (he’d already been briefed on the concept).

I blanked. I looked at this man that I admire so much and I said the words: Between Two Ferns… author edition?

He smiled and thought for, I kid you not half a second, snapped his fingers, and said Between Two Perns. He got someone to run up to his library and grab two copies to put in the background, and the rest is history. 

I was scared shitless looking Brandon Sanderson in the eye and calling him a plagiarist during that interview (while in his home (after he had fed me several excellent meals (after he let us raid their stock of paperbacks))). But Brandon took it all in stride and had funny retorts for all of my shenanigans. I’m very grateful he was willing to take a chance on such a fun format with an inexperienced interviewer.

So, yeah, Brandon Sanderson possessed me to start the show. Even though he fed me, used his equipment and team to film the video, carried the first episode, and named the show, is it too much to ask that he possess me while I write books for a change?

[GdM] Were you always a Pern fan, or did you stumble into that world sideways like a confused time-traveling Harper?

[jDik] Don’t ask me questions you already know the answer to just to make me look stupid. That’s my thing. Obviously, I wasn’t a Pern fan before. If I was, I could have named my own damn show.

[GdM] So what I am hearing is that you hate Dragon Riders of Pern, and by extension Anne McCaffrey. “It’s a bold strategy, Cotton. Let’s see if it pays off for ’em.” 

[jDik] I’ve run into Todd McCaffrey at a few cons now. He’s a super nice guy, and I don’t just say that because I’m grateful he hasn’t sued my socks off yet. But, no, I’m afraid I still haven’t had the pleasure of actually digging into Dragon Riders of Pern yet…

[GdM] What’s your elevator pitch for a typical Between Two Perns episode? Once the pitch is set, what is your process like from start to finish?

[jDik] “Hey, *insert author name here* we’re going to be at the same convention. Wanna come to my hotel room filled with cameras and let me make fun of the career you’ve worked so hard to build?”

Gets ‘em every time. (It doesn’t, actually. The introverts hiss at me and melt into the shadows before my eyes. I don’t mind because it’s the kind of show that’s better off sticking only to guests who are enthusiastic about the format.)

After they agree, I do a lot of research. I stalk the hell out of them. Nobody ever talks about how much time and energy stalking takes. The hardest authors to interview are the ones who have one book/series or who seemingly have never had internet access. I love interviewing horror authors, because all those folks are real sickos. It’s easy to pick their story ideas apart and present them in an even worse light than they already present themselves. The authors who have no internet presence—I hate them. I like to make the interviews accessible to people who haven’t read their works, so I often dig at the author, their career, and broad concepts around their books. If they have no online presence, it’s harder to find funny questions/angles for the interview. You wouldn’t believe the stuff I find published on author websites, like their literal home addresses. (Lookin’ at you, Andrew Najberg.)

I take all the quirks, oddities, and angles I can find and do my best to write them into cohesive interviews that flow nicely with questions that set up punchlines or make it easy for the author to shine with some ridiculous answer. I think Sanderson’s interview took the least amount of time to write because I had followed his work so closely for so long and because I had extreme levels of cortisol driving me to do good work in very little time. The interview that took the longest to write was over forty hours of research and writing jokes.

[GdM] I think that this research is at the heart of why this show is so much fun and successful. You have to know quite a bit about whom you are interviewing to be able to know what questions that are funny or ridiculous. You have to know, deeply about the broad concepts in books for ribbing on Jim Butcher such as, “So why do you hate Chicago so much?” 

Author Jackson Dickert

[jDik] Yeah, Jim Butcher is a great example. I give him hell in that interview, but I didn’t read seventeen Dresden Files books because I dislike his work. I love the Dresden Files, and I’ll die on the hill that they’re even better to listen to than they are to read because of James Marsters’s god-tier performance on the audiobooks. Butcher’s interview was hard to write in some ways because of how much material there was to choose from and a desire to still make the interview accessible to people who haven’t read the books yet. My biggest hope for the series has always been that it could be a fun and unorthodox way for readers to discover new books/authors.

[GdM] Your work often walks the line between critique and celebration. How do you strike that balance without falling into cynicism or fanboy territory?

[jDik] I have an exhausting amount of empathy, a trait that I consider a really important component of comedy. I never want my comedy to cause actual controversy, come off as hateful, or hurt someone’s feelings. I’m sure I’ve deleted some excellent jokes that were completely above board just because I (or my anxious doting wife) overthought it. The balance stems from the roast aspect that the show has leaned more and more into over time competing with my personality. By the time I’m done going over the script a few times, the mean-spirited funny things and the empathy duke it out and come to terms with one another. It’s not really an intentional balance that I defined so much as it is baked into whatever went wrong with my brain development.

[GdM] It is the difference between punching up and punching down. You are obviously and ridiculously ribbing guests, you make them laugh. That is where the empathy comes into play. Making someone laugh, versus laughing at someone is a huge difference why folks keep coming back.

[jDik] That’s also why it’s nice playing the cocky moron character who perceives himself to be “publishing’s hardest-hitting interviewer”. It gives the audience someone to laugh AT, which is just one more tool in the toolbox for ensuring each episode doesn’t feel the exact same as the last.

[GdM] If you could interview any SFF character for Between Two Perns, who would it be and what’s your opening question? And to pay homage to a grimdark legend, what would your first question be to Jorg Ancrath?

[jDik] Gandalf, easy. 

Me: Why didn’t you have the eagles fly them?

*Gandalf justifies it*

[GdM] “A (giant bird) is never late, nor (are they) early, (they) arrive precisely (before one is melted by lava).” —Gandalf (probably)

[jDik] They flew the bear dude in The Hobbit… Or was that the movies? Doesn’t matter, they were perfect adaptations.

[GdM] The Hobbit? Agree to disagree.

[jDik] For my first question to Jorg, I would ask him: When you broke your dog’s legs, did you give him painkillers afterwards or Just-ice it?

[GdM] When you’re writing Perns versus a novel like The Quest for the Golden Plunger, does the creativity come from the same chaos-goblin-infused place, or are those two completely different writing experiences?

[jDik] They come from the same place, but they’re two distinctly different experiences in the end. Writing humor in a book is fun because everyone always perfectly sets each other up for punchlines, almost like they’re characters or something. Interviewing authors has a huge element of unpredictability to it. They’re so annoying with their personalities and free will. Oftentimes I have to improv to tweak a joke’s wording in the moment so that it’s set up better since the authors don’t know my questions ahead of time and sometimes veer off the path I want them on for the punchline. It all comes from the same place, but the process is unique, different, and fun for both.

[GdM] Your voice is distinct. You blend humor and critique with sincerity and an obvious love for SFF. How did you develop that tone, and has it ever backfired?

[jDik] The tone comes from a sincere love of fiction. That passion allows me to acknowledge all the great things about it, recognize the bad, and appreciate the ways it changes over time. A big part of humor is putting things under a microscope and zooming in until the thing is bigger and more distorted than it actually is. Sometimes people leave comments on my videos that suggest I didn’t roast the author hard enough. But I think that’s everything wrong with the world right now. The point isn’t to roast someone for the sake of breaking their spirit. The point is to laugh, and that’s what I aim to achieve regardless of what form it takes.

It has never backfired. I am perfect. (Of course it’s backfired, and it’s the first thing I think about when I wake up in the morning and the last thing I think about before I fall asleep at night. Thank the Old Gods and the New that my wife doesn’t read Grimdark Magazine.)

[GdM] If it is any consolation as one who interviews quite a few people, this thought just gave me a stomachache.  

[jDik] Thanks. Nick Martell, if you’re reading this, I’m sorry for dropping that bag of sand on your wrist, and hope you’re recovering well after surgery. I really thought that whole joke would go over better than it did. Be sure to delete this part of my answer, Beth, but between you and me, he was kind of a big baby about the whole thing. The sandbag was only fifty pounds.

[GdM] Do you think fandom is healthier today than it was ten years ago, or is it just louder and bigger? With the rise of adaptations, are movies and shows helping SFF grow, or are they boxing it in?

[jDik] I liked it when they split the last book of the Hunger Games series into two movies. I think we can all agree that two climaxes are better than one.

[GdM] What is one SFF trope you will defend with your last breath, and one you wish would die in a ditch after being hit by a runaway ox-cart?

[jDik] Have you heard of Dickert’s Bridge? It posits that if there is a rickety rope bridge suspended across a chasm, it must fall. All good fiction adheres to it: King Kong, Shrek, Pirates of the Caribbean, Temple of Doom, Dr. Stone, Kung Fu Panda, Emperor’s New Groove. Fiction it doesn’t happen in? George of the Jungle, Monty Python, and The Heresy Within by Rob J. Hayes. Notice a trend? Word on the street is that ML Wang calls it Dickert’s Bridge too, so I think it’s catching on.

What was the second part of your question? The trope I wish would die in a ditch? Probably Chekhov’s gun.

[GdM] Yes, because Chekhov’s gun is so overrated. I myself am a fan of extraneous detail that leads absolutely nowhere. Also, yes on the bridge. I still have fond childhood memories of watching Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, “Indiana Jones: [trapped on a rope bridge] Shorty! Short Round: Hang on lady, we going for a ride! Willie: Oh my god!”

[jDik] I liked the part right after that where Indy looks at the camera and says, “Golly gee, sure looks like we’ve gotten ourselves into a real Dickert’s bridge pickle, gang.”

[GdM] Who is an author that doesn’t get nearly enough attention, and why should readers check them out?

[jDik] I’m currently reading an ARC of my friend, Eira Brand’s, gritty cyberpunk debut, Run Like Hell, which released on June 30th. What I’ve read thus far has been fantastic, and I think the unwashed masses who stalk the shadows of Grimdark Magazine may enjoy it as well. I haven’t finished it yet, but so far it’s got a lethal dose of body horror, more action than your readers have ever gotten in their lives, and enough content warnings to kill a Victorian child. Even if cyberpunk isn’t your thing, look it up just to see the cover art, it’s gorgeous

[GdM] What is your favorite video game, and can you tell me why it’s Slay the Spire? (No judgment if you haven’t hit my 11.5k hours. Promise.)

[jDik] Slay the Spire is great. Wow, I’m really proud of you that you’ve only put in 1.5k hours in the last twelve months. This shows significant restraint and excellent time-management ability on your part. This is the first question I’ve answered 100% honestly. Assuming you started playing on the day the game came out, this means your previous averages were 1,538 hours per year. After 6.5 years, you’re finally cutting down on your playtime by a full 1.3 hours per week. This is amazing, you should be proud. 

My favorite game is Dredge.

[GdM] I am both horrified and delighted with myself…no I am just horrified. What is it about Dredge that you enjoy so much?

[jDik] I love fish. I love spooky (not scary, they’re different, I swear). Dredge is the perfect intersection of spooky and fish. The music, art style, the writing… it’s incredible. The game’s progression elements naturally complement the gameplay and setting as well—you go fish up some normal fish, mutated fish, as well as dredge resources and artifacts from the bottom of the sea floor. You sell your catch, upgrade your boat, and head back out. It’s a tight gameplay loop that, along with the eerie atmosphere and a simple but satisfying story, makes for one of my favorite gaming experiences I’ve ever had. I 100%’d it twice on two different consoles. Normally I might be embarrassed about that, but in light of your 11.5k hours on Slay the Spire, I don’t think I have to defend myself.

For a book that has similar vibes, I would suggest The Fisherman by John Langan. It’s the perfect balance of literary fiction and cosmic horror with—you guessed it—fish.

[GdM] I hear you are a manta ray enthusiast. What is it about the noble manta that draws you in?

[jDik] In the shimmering depths of the ocean, the manta ray glides—a living embodiment of the indomitable will of the human spirit. Its vast, smooth wings ripple with a three-dimensional elegance that defies the clumsy unidirectional choreography of time, as though the creature evolved to trace the very edges of the cosmos yet finds meaning in our simple oceans as it moves with an effortless rhythm that transcends the mundane limitations of earthly existence and imparts joy upon the feeble minds of all who stand in its glorious presence. Each flap is a silent hymn to the nature of waves; a sacred and primordial shape found within the anatomy of each and every living person. The manta ray is a metaphor for life itself: graceful, playful, and infinite yet bound by the same existence humans are. These precious creatures are immense in their vulnerability, gentle in their treatment of other species, and radiant as they soar through the hearts and minds of all who witness them. This cartilaginous wonder has the largest brain to body ratio of any of its ichthyian peers, whose intelligences are as dim as the very depths they traverse. But the noble manta ray… to be in its presence is to glimpse the secret pulse of the universe, to bask in the moment two people fall in love, and to have an ear pressed to the chest of a newborn babe as it draws its first breath.

Plus, they were the first fish to go to the moon.

[GdM] You’ve broken your ankles four times, and you are a writer. That leads me to conclude your number one fan went complete Misery on you. Is that true, or is there a less terrifying explanation?

[jDik] I’ve also had two spontaneous pneumothoraxes, a broken collarbone, a kidney stone inflicted by a goddess’s curse (sounds like a joke—it’s not), had a mole removed by a person biting it off me, been stabbed in the shoulder, and survived rolling with Alexander Darwin. But you want to know about my ankles?

[GdM] I got to be honest the biting mole off thing, that made me most squeamish. That had to have happened while you saved an orphan from a burning building or something heroic… right?

[jDik] If only. The mole was lost saving my dumbass cousin in a fight at summer camp. He’d intentionally provoked a boy who was older and stronger. When my cousin’s face started turning cool colors, it was time to intervene. It’s unfortunate because while his ass kicking was very much deserved, the mole was just an innocent bystander. Boy Scout camp really is Lord of the Flies in khaki button-ups, and that’s what my first book, The Quest for the Golden Plunger, boils down to as well.

[GdM] What is next for you? More Perns, more plungers, or something completely unexpected?

[jDik] I’ve been working with Rob J. Hayes on The World of Heresy, a digital worldbuilding companion for his grimdark series, The Ties that Bind trilogy. It’s 120,000 words, has over 140 pieces of new art, and contains everything you learn about the characters and worldbuilding during the books along with new lore tidbits. It also has two new novellas Rob wrote that are set in the same world in addition to a short story written by yours truly. It comes out exclusively on campfirewriting.com this October, but early access is included in tiers of Rob’s special edition Kickstarter campaign this July. 

I wrote a supernatural thriller with elements of cosmic horror that comes out next year called Backwoods Bargain. It’s a weird book with Greek gods, cryptids, and sociopaths with superpowers set in Appalachia. A big part of it is exploring the extremes of both ends of the empathy spectrum.

[GdM] When next year? This sounds like something our readers would dig. And also, can you return Rob to GdM. Thank you. 

[jDik] Let me slink away and hide my crappy art in peace, Godsdammit Magazine. I don’t know when next year. You got me. Happy? The book is edited and done. The cover is done in two weeks. But I don’t have time to do a proper six-month marketing campaign for its release this year with some of the other (very cool) projects that I have the pleasure of being a part of. How about you pick when it comes out next year, and I’ll work around that?

As for Rob J. Hayes, no, I will not return Rob to GdM. My first name is Robert, and I am creating a coalition of author Robert Jacksons. It’s comprised of Robert Jackson Bennett, Rob Boffard/Jackson Ford (we voted to count it), Robert Jackson Hayes, and myself. 

We call ourselves Rob J. Crew, which some blame for the sharp increase in shoplifting at J. Crew since our founding.

[GdM] You all have your own “Bobiverse” ready to go. 

We have made it folks. Jackson delivers from his corner of the science fiction and fantasy universe. Whether it is his novel, The Quest for the Golden Plunger, his role as Chief Marketing officer at Campfire, a company that helps authors write, publish, and connect while storytelling, or the satire of Between Two Perns spiraling into increasingly elaborate projects powered by sarcasm and zero sleep. Jackson is here to stay because beneath the jokes and the fish facts is a creator who genuinely loves storytelling—and somehow makes the chaos goblins that run around his brain look like a brand strategy. 

Check him out, I promise you will enjoy it and revel in his love for SFF.

This interview was first published in Grimdark Magazine Issue #43

The post INTERVIEW: Jackson Dickert from Between Two Perns appeared first on Grimdark Magazine.