Velikovsky on `Memes'
Velikovsky of Newcastle on `Memes'
on
`Ev Cult Explained'
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Part #63
of
The SCS (Science Communication Series) on
The meta-meta-science of Evolutionary Culturology
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An Interview with Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #461,
by your Host for this week:
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #728
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Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #728:
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Ev Cult Explained ! ...I'll be your host for today, I'm Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #728, and with me today is Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #461. And today, our topic of discussion is `memes', or the pseudo-scientific domain of study known as Memetics. And so without further ado, a very warm welcome if you would, for #461!
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #461:
Thank you - and thank you for having me on, and very nice to be with you, #728.
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #728:
The pleasure is all ours... And so - first up, we have a question from one of our readers, "Mystified-By-Memes", who has written in to us:
"What was - and currently is - Velikovsky of Newcastle's position on Memetics, and the concept of the `meme' - the unit of culture - as per, say, Richard Dawkins' 1976 popular science book, The Selfish Gene, and subsequently, other publications on `memes' by the likes of say, Susan Blackmore, Dan Dennett, Tim Tyler, and so on?"
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #461:
Great question, thank you #728. I see this question as a wonderful opportunity to resolve some apparent confusion, by some readers of the meta-meta-science of Ev Cult... But of course - in the words of the great Sir Karl Popper: "Always remember that it is impossible to speak in such a way that you cannot be misunderstood: there will always be some who misunderstand you."
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #728:
[awkward laugh] Indeed, indeed so.
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #461:
To be very clear, Velikovsky of Newcastle published extensively on why the pseudo-scientific `Meme Theory' and `Memetics' was always wrong...
For just 10 examples, see:
# 1 - The Ev Cult weblog post: How & Where - exactly and precisely - Dawkins (1976) and `Memetics': Got It All Wrong
# 2 - The Ev Cult weblog post: So-called `memes' (actually: units of culture; fractal HOLON/partons) aren’t SELF-replicating...!!! They GET replicated, by people solving problems (achieving goals) !
# 3 - See: Chapter Four in, the 2023 book, The Meta-Meta-Science of Evolutionary Culturology, namely `Chapter 4 - Literature Review of: The Pseudoscience of Memetics' (on Academia.edu) (on ResearchGate)
# 4 - See, the Ev Cult weblog post: A Short List of Some Memetics Literature - (Important Note: Ev Cult has nothing to do with the pseudoscience of: Memetics!)
# 5 - See, the FAQ section, in the textbook Elements of Evolutionary Culturology (2nd ed. 02023) - here is an excerpt:
Q: What is the difference between:(1) Cultural Evolution, (2) Memetics, and (3) this–the new Meta-meta-Science ofEvolutionary Culturology?
A: Cultural Evolution is an excellent Science, and all ofit integrates well into Evolutionary Culturology. Someclassic works of Cultural Evolution Science include (but are not limited to):
Cultural Evolution: How Darwinian theory can explainHuman Culture and Synthesize the Social Sciences. (Mesoudi, 2011)
Cultural Transmission and Evolution: A quantitativeapproach. (Cavalli-Sforza& Feldman, 1981)
Culture and the Evolutionary Process. (Boyd & Richerson, 1985)
Not By Genes Alone: How culture transformed humanevolution. (Richerson &Boyd, 2005)
This View of Life: Completing the Darwinian Revolution. (D S Wilson, 2019)
A Story of Us: A New Look at Human Evolution. (Newson &Richerson, 2021)
And see: the Cultural Evolution Society website for Further Reading resources.
To the year 2016, however, the science of Cultural Evolution had neverquite solved the hard scientific problem of the key universal (1) units, (2) levels, (2) Three Laws, and (4) key evolutionary mechanisms (evolutionary algorithms) of all cultureand biology.
The same issue applies to the domain of Memetics; see forexample (Blackmore, 1999; Dawkins, 1976; Dennett,2017;Tyler,2011).
Along with CulturalEvolution Science, Memetics also never solved the hardscientific problem of the universal units, levels, 3 Laws, and evolutionary mechanisms of all cultureand biology.
Meme Theory also got off on the wrong foot, by assuming that units of culture are intentionalagents.
Asbrilliant as they are, both Memetics and Cultural Evolution scholars neverclearly universally defined orunderstood culture as information in systems, in its 4 phase-states (and thus, taxonomy ) of: (1) ideas, (2) mental processes, (3) physicalprocesses, and (4) products.
Evolutionary Culturology shows there are two key entities,in both biology and culture: (1) systems (including:eco-systems/environments), and (2) units of culture–i.e., the latter being tools, used for solving problems/achievinggoals bysystems. And, these tools, in some cases, are alsosystems! (E.g., a car; an engine; a computer; or even using a farm animal/beastof burden to pull a cart or plow).
Ev Cult shows how both (1) systems (both biological, and mechanical) and (2) tools (units of culture) are structured as fractal HOLON/partons, and also function as fractal HOLON/partons due to the 3 Laws, operating on theunits and systems.
In short, units of culture (sometimes, called `memes’)are not replicators, nor self-replicators; in the view of the meta-meta-Scienceof Ev Cult, units of culture (ideas, processes,products) get communicated (duplicated and shared;and thus get spread, or transmitted, among systems) by intentional agents/systems (e.g. humans, or AIs/smart systems).
See also: https://evolutionary-culturology.blogspot.com/2022/08/30-cultural-evolution-books-reviewed-in.html
See the 300definitions of `culture’ in: Baldwin, J. R., Faulkner, S. L., Hecht, M. L., &Lindsley, S. L. (Eds.). (2006). RedefiningCulture: Perspectives Across the Disciplines. Lawrence Erlbaum Associates.
Source: Elements of Evolutionary Culturology (2nd ed. 02023, pp. 375-6)
#6 - See also, Endnote #1, on Page 209 of the textbook A Selection of Empirical Data, Charts, Tables, & Graphs, from The Meta-Meta-Science of Evolutionary Culturology, (2023), which states:
Endnote 1. To Select, Vary, and Transmit (SVT) a unit of culture: Don’t judge a book by its cover–nor an article by its title…!
Namely do not be misled by the word `meme' in the titles of the articles (Velikovsky 2016-2020). Read the papers.
The only thing Ev Cult has to do with `memes' is that the word `meme', borrowed from (Dawkins 1976) – like at least ten other words/terms (e.g., idea, mneme, seme, culturgen, mentifact, sociofact, artifact, product, etc.) – was, previously, a synonym for the term `unit of culture', before the unit of culture was scientifically identified in Evolutionary Culturology (2016).
The domain and field of `Memetics' never quite solved the unit of culture (what it is, how it works, and why). See also the FAQ chapter in Elements of Ev Cult (2nd ed., 02023) for why Memetics always was, and still is: fundamentally scientifically wrong.
Contrary to Memetics, units of culture are not replicators, nor self-replicators, nor do they have intentional agency (nor goals); they are merely inanimate tools. In fact neither are genes, `replicators’; as they are part of a larger self-replicating system: a cell, a virus, or an organism.
In Ev Cult, units of culture (i.e., ideas, mental processes, physical processes, and products) are inanimate tools, used (and communicated) by systems (people and smart systems / AIs / robots).
It is merely that the mostly-admirable book (Dawkins 1976, specifically Ch. 11) drew widespread attention to units of culture (known by some as `memes’).
To be clear: The Meta-Meta-Science of Evolutionary Culturology, and the pseudo-science of Memetics, are: totally unrelated.
(Velikovsky 2023, in the book:
A Selection of Empirical Data, Charts, Tables, & Graphs, from
The Meta-Meta-Science of Evolutionary Culturology, 2023, p. 209.)
#7 - See, also, the section on Dawkins (i.e. on: The Selfish Gene, Chapter 11, 1976), in Chapter 3 - Literature Review of: The Science of Cultural Evolution (see: pp. 203-220) (on Academia.edu) (on ResearchGate) of the 2023 book, The Meta-Meta-Science of Evolutionary Culturology.
#8 - See also, the Ev Cult blog post: (noting that, `the meme' was also, one of 160 past unscientific names/terms for: a unit of culture). We now know that the universal (1) structure, (2) function, and (3) Three Universal Laws of the unit of culture, in all domains, is: the fractal HOLON/parton.
#9 - See also, the Ev Cult blog post: 29 past attempts at `Universal Units', and Ev Cult's successful Solution to the Problem ~ An Essay, by The EthiSizer A.I.
#10 - See also, the Ev Cult blog post: Past unscientific metaphors for "culture", prior to the meta-meta-science of Evolutionary Culturology (i.e., 2016 - onwards) (noting that the term `memes' was always: an unscientific metaphor)
#11 - a Position Paper that Velikovsky wrote, `Position Paper on Evolutionary Culturology vs. Memetics' (02021)
...And so, to answer your question - in short, Memetics has nothing to do with Ev Cult, and never has. Velikovsky was always quite clear about that. The term `meme' was always used by Dawkins, and others, in the pseudoscience of `Memetics', to gesture towards the idea that: there was a universal unit of culture. They just never knew how to scientifically identify it, before the meta-meta-science of Evolutionary Culturology came along, in a 2016 PhD.
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #728:
Right, I see-! Well, thank you so much, #461, for clearing all that up!
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #461:
You're very welcome! And thank you again #728, for asking. And to our reader - er, Mister or Missus "Mystified-By-Memes" !
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #728:
In fact, in looking at Dawkins (1976, p. 192) I can now see why, some people might get confused... I can see what Dawkins wrote, here on page 192 of The Selfish Gene, but see what happens, when we change a few words, to remove confusion:
"The new soup is the soup of human culture.
We need a name for UNITS OF CULTURE, namely: fractal HOLON/partons.
[NOT: `the new replicator', as units of culture are not replicators nor self-replicators, see Systems Science, and see autopoietic and allopoietic systems; units of culture are neither], a noun that conveys the idea of a UNIT OF CULTURE namely fractal HOLON/partons [NOT, a unit of cultural transmission, NOR a unit of imitation.]...
...Examples of UNITS OF CULTURE, namely fractal HOLON/partons [NOT `memes'] are tunes, ideas, catch-phrases, clothes fashions, ways of making pots or of building arches.
Yes, in Ev Cult, those all are: 1. ideas, or 2. mental processes, or 3. physical processes, or 4. products (i.e., physical artifacts)...
And, DELETE THIS WHOLE NEXT BIT, as it's wrong: "Just as genes propagate themselves in the gene pool by leaping from body to body via sperms or eggs, so memes propagate themselves in the meme pool by leaping from brain to brain via a process which, in the broad sense, can be called imitation."]
That all misses the Systems Science view, and so: is scientifically mistaken.
But, KEEP THIS BIT, BELOW, as it's simply about COMMUNICATION, and for that, see Communication Science.
"...If a scientist hears, or reads about, a good idea, he passes it on to his colleagues and students. He mentions it in his articles and his lectures. If the idea catches on, THEN IT BECOMES CANON, IN A DOMAIN IN CULTURE. "
[NOT: "- then it can be said to propagate itself, spreading from brain to brain." This phrase of Dawkins' is a (biological) metaphor. Culture doesn't work that way.
And, although both culture and biology are systems, and systems are made of - and exchange - (1) energy, (2) information, and (3) matter - their mechanisms are slightly different - but, see the meta-science of Systems Science.
Even better - see the meta-meta-science of Ev Cult, of which, the meta-science of Systems Science is a component part... See the Ev Cult diagrams, below.]
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #461:
Exactly right-! Scientifically speaking, units of culture are fractal HOLON/partons. And, for how they get moved around (Selected, and Transmitted, by systems, e.g. people or AIs), see The Fractal Systems Meta-Model of Biocultural Evolutionary Creativity from Ev Cult. Forget all about `Memes' and `Memetics', it was always wrong, and was always: unscientific. To be fair, Memetics always had its heart in the right place, in looking for the unit of culture, but ultimately missed the target by a mile. So, Memetics is best confined to the dustbin of history. It just confuses people. Science is always better than pseudoscience, as Popper noted!
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #728:
Indeed, all very true. ...Well folks - that's all, for this episode of Ev Cult Explained! Join us again, next week, won't you - when we'll be talking to The EthiSizer AI GPT about world peace. In the meantime, ask anything you want to know, of any Ev Cult GPTs and, any of the thousands of Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twins. That's all for now, stay safe, and stay ethical-! And remember - Keep Calm and do Ev Cult!
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A post by
Velikovsky of Newcastle's Digital Twin #5271
(see also: VoN's Digital Twins)
Post curated by:
