Joel Stein & Adults Who Read YA Are Silly
The wonderful Alyssa Rosenberg of ThinkProgress has written a short and succinct article (with a lovely mention for me!) about satire writer Joel Stein's much-debated Adults Should Read Adult Books article that's being bounced all around publishing and the internet.
I think you'll find his article, and Alyssa's, and the comments on Alyssa's article (to which I contributed) pretty interesting, and of course you can say your own thinks right here. I hope you will, since I'm interested in what you have to say!
Replies from me won't come for a few days, since Tim and I will be at Marcon in Columbus, OH, but once I'm home I look forward to reading your comments.
I think Stein is a fathead, by the way. If he really is being satiric, as some have claimed, then I think he's a troll.
I think you'll find his article, and Alyssa's, and the comments on Alyssa's article (to which I contributed) pretty interesting, and of course you can say your own thinks right here. I hope you will, since I'm interested in what you have to say!
Replies from me won't come for a few days, since Tim and I will be at Marcon in Columbus, OH, but once I'm home I look forward to reading your comments.
I think Stein is a fathead, by the way. If he really is being satiric, as some have claimed, then I think he's a troll.
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Apr 04, 2012 04:45PM
WOW. Just wow.....
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I can never understand people having such strong opinions about things they haven't even experienced for themselves.I was taught to make up my own mind about stuff.
once I've read it (in this case), I can always say: hey, this is not for me.
but until then I would only be basing my opinion on somebody elses, and second hand opinions are just not good enough for me.
I read for two reasons only: for pleasure and information. I don't care what genre a book is being filed under by somebody else, for me it's like wine (or anything else for that matter), there are only two flavours: like and don't like.
other than that: a book is a book is a book.
and if he wants to read worthy adult literature exclusively, just for the sake of it, then he's welcome to it.
my reading time is too precious for me to waste on that kind of thing, I'll keep reading what I enjoy, be it austen, bronte or dickens or even the hunger games, twilight or harry potter.
Sigh. Stein's piece was pretty pathetic. But since it inspired Rosenberg's outstanding rebuttal I guess I'm glad he wrote it. I think young adult fiction has some of the best writers in the business.
what an idiot. he's apparently so amazing at being an adult that he doesn't need to expose his narrow mind to anything at all before he passes judgment. *rolls eyes* what a waste of written space.
Furthermore, I don't know why it is any of Stein's concern if some adults like to read young adult fiction. In fact, I have found many pieces of young adult fiction much better than some adult fiction I have read. And just because he sees an adult reading one young adult book certainly doesn't mean that the person in question reads only young adult books. Most people I know read a bit of everything.
I think that he should read a few young adult books and broaden his view. Everybody should have the choice and not be looked down on.
If I only read "adult" books, I'd hardly be reading anything, due to the graphic content. YA books can entertain and make me think, no skipping pages needed!
Does he think we should all be reading Pynchon every day? He must be aware that one of the reasons for reading is relaxation. Some people read murder mysteries or vampire porn. I prefer YA books. Just like any other genre, there are good and bad and in-between (Beka Cooper being among the absolute best, IMHO). Not to mention those of us who are parents want to know of good books to recommend to our kids.
Can anyone else picture this fathead (thank you, Ms Pierce, for the descriptive term ;D) sitting on his uncomfortable, imported furniture (because comfort is for those who don't appreciate /art/), sipping wine he doesn't enjoy (because this is the latest vintage), listening to only classical music (any of that pop music isn't /cultural/ enough), reading his classic lit and feeling superior?I honestly cannot picture anyone giving a blue lagoon what Mr. Stein reads. If he thinks keeping to the adult section of the bookstore makes him more sophisticated than the rest of us, then may he enjoy his bitter grapes in self-satisfied silence.
Personally, I find his article too rife with unfounded assumptions about the purpose of literature, the educational/cultural importance of movies and games, the content of YA books, and the content of adult fiction to have any worthwhile arguments about it.
Stop raining on our parades, Mr Stein! I have a new Emelan novel to anticipate.
Call me Peter Pan, but if growing up means that I can't have my YA fiction without being looked at funny, then I'll happily say I'm 21 for the rest of my life!Maturity isn't about putting away everything that society deems immature, it's about embracing all life has to offer regardless of age. So in my book, this guy is the immature little boy who thinks playing with toy cars is for babies.
But~ I'd like to believe that his article was just to stir the pot and this is not how he truly feels. If that's the case: well played, sir.
I love reading the opinions of people ill-qualified to give them. They always have so much to add to the topic. /sarcasm
I have a hard time believing he meant what he wrote. Can he really be that oblivious of how pompous he sounds? I highly doubt it. We are all entitled to our own opinions and preferences. In library land, where I spend much of my time, it is called intellectual freedom.On the other hand, nicely written Alyssa Rosenberg! Now time to go to bed and snuggle into bed and enjoy a few chapters in a *gasp* YA Tamora Pierce novel... :)
What an idiot. Does this guy think there is a cut off point for when you can stop enjoying YA? "Welp, I'm eighteen now, better go into the adult section"? That's not how it works.
I love how he assumes "adult" books are inherently more deep and mature than something written for teens, but doesn't actually list any qualifications for what he would consider "adult" literature other than "not marketed at teens". Would he sneer at someone for reading Kate Elliot's Crown of Stars series or China Mieville's New Crobuzon trilogy? Both serials are marketed to adults, but because they're fantasy, perhaps they wouldn't meet with Stein's approval any more than Harry Potter does.Yes, there is a lot of YA out there that isn't particularly complex or mature or even very well-written, but that's no reason to disparage the entire genre. Besides, I've read plenty of so-called adult novels that were poorly-written, badly plotted, and populated by insipid characters; none of them were nearly as complex or engaging as some of the YA I've read. So judge me all you want, Mr. Stein, I'm going to continue reading the works of Scott Westerfeld and Suzanne Collins, Tamora Pierce and J.K. Rowling and Markus Zusak, because I enjoy them. I also enjoy Twain and Whitman, Dickens and Hugo, Verne and Orwell and Bradbury, Vonnegut and Wilde. It's the content of a book that attracts my interest, not the strategy used to market it.
I don't see how it's any of his business what anyone else is reading. In my opinion, it doesn't matter, just as long as people are READING.
How come people always ties exellence and trash to genres? To some people fantasy/science/crime/young adult/children's fiction, is always, no expetion made, trash, and below them.To me, there is no such thing as good genres or bad genres. There are genres I personally like less.
And then there is good or bad literature. Both types always crossing the boundries people set up.
The little prince, for instance, being written for children, is a classic on the same level as any written for adults - and is by the way mainly read by them... And some of the most exellent writing I have read was categorized as young adult fantasy.
Liz wrote: "Sigh. Stein's piece was pretty pathetic. But since it inspired Rosenberg's outstanding rebuttal I guess I'm glad he wrote it. I think young adult fiction has some of the best writers in the busin..."Me, too, but I'm biased!
VeganMedusa wrote: "Does he think we should all be reading Pynchon every day? He must be aware that one of the reasons for reading is relaxation. Some people read murder mysteries or vampire porn. I prefer YA books. J..."::blush::
And most of us do recommend to unsure parents that they read first before they hand a book to their kids. Nothing explains a book like reading it yourself.
Anything that gets people reading is worthwhile. Do I love all of the YA fiction that I read? Absolutely not. Do I appreciate that even the stuff that I don't get means something to millions of people who now read for entertainment? Yes. Further, I think reading YA is very important for parents in particular. Just as we develop a better understanding of our history by reading the literature of the time, we can better understand our children by reading the literature of today that is targeted at them. The culture is changing; YA fiction reflects those changes faster than any other genre of writing. With the exception of some video game-based fan fic, I read everything that my 15 year old does. Sometimes he recommends books to me because he wants to talk to me about them (my intro to Tamora Pierce came about this way). Other times I tell him I need to read it first because I expect some questionable content (Like some George RR Martin works). That doesn’t mean I won't let him read it, but I like to give him a head's up and prepare myself for conversations that the content might bring up. Because I've always done this, he trusts me when I recommend a book aimed at a more adult audience to him (1984, Life of Pi, Dancing Naked in the Mind Field, etc).
morgaine_cat wrote: "I can never understand people having such strong opinions about things they haven't even experienced for themselves.I was taught to make up my own mind about stuff.
once I've read it (in this case..."
I agree that everyone should form their own opinions on a book after reading it. I read the Twilight series because a friend of mine loved them, but I hated them. I still needed to read it on my own though so I could truly form my own opinion on them.
Wow, there are some really well written comments here. This discussion is thoughtful and meaningful. I'm glad there are so many readers open to the wider fields of literary experience, and I am especially happy to hear intelligent parenting input. I teach. I think I'll have to bookmark this discussion to use in a lesson somewhere.
I honestly feel sorry for him. Though I am an 'adult', I still have the capacity for imagination and adventure. This capacity in him seems to have been replaced with the love of more adult things, like golf and driving only five miles over the speed limit. He will live the rest of his life only experiencing things fit for 'adults' and that is just sad. I say he has picked his own form of punishment for his closed-mindedness.
Holy Cow! This guy won the snob olympics, didn't he? I can't believe the dig he made at Pixar movies. There is more depth to movies such as WallE and Up than there is to, say, Dirty Harry, which is indisputably aimed at adults. Let's also take a moment to pity a man who is so wrapped up in "3,000 years" of pre-defined literature that he can't think for himself about the merits (or lack thereof) of others' creativity. I also have to wonder about the sunlight/vampire comment: if he's so literary, surely he knows that classical vampires were not confined to the night hours.But "it's embarrassing"?! Really? Let's all be conformist little box-people to avoid embarrassing ourselves. No! Let's instead stand with our dreams and ideals-- if I believe in love and magic, and choose to express that romanticism by getting engaged at Cinderella's castle, that's a declaration of who I am. If the world thinks less of me for that, too bad. Or if I decide to keep reading fairy tales, dancing to the radio, or dreaming about being an actress, that's me. I LIKE reading "young adult" and even children's fiction. In middle school, I could read at a 12th-grade level. You know what I was reading at the time? Nancy Drew. How's that Mr. Stein!?! It didn't mean I was less intelligent. I would even say it has, in the long term, challenged me. My love for Nancy Drew was one of the things that influenced me to major in forensic science. Recently I've been tracking down old editions of Nancy Drew books, ones that were re-written and cleaned up as our culture changed; they're a window into the reality of our past, in ways that are sometimes amusing and sometimes appalling.
And you know what, I'm not embarrassed anymore about what I read. Instead, I read what I want, and love myself for who I am.
Kirsten wrote: "I have a hard time believing he meant what he wrote. Can he really be that oblivious of how pompous he sounds? I highly doubt it. We are all entitled to our own opinions and preferences. In lib..."I want to believe you're right. But I really didn't catch the sarcasm in his writing.
I'm proud to read Young Adult. I don't like extremely sexual books, and the YA I read has good stories, excellent plot and character development, and no sex. Fantastic, if you ask me.
Katarina wrote: "I want to believe you're right. But I didn't catch the sarcasm in his writing."Me either. However, I just can't believe anyone could write that article, proof read it, and still decide they agreed with it enough to post it. Apparently I live in a happy little bubble.
I think adults should read young adult books. Anything a adult can write, an adult can read.People have the freedom to do and write and read and enjoy any genre they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Which it doesn't. So I really don't think this guy knows what he's talking about. If it was really that important it would be in the Constitution. Or something. Obviously this guy did not have an enjoyable childhood. YA is like, the center of youth and goodness! It's supposed to be the most exciting time of our lives...and it just goes to show you that some people are so close-minded that you could put a beautiful sunset in front of them and they'd turn away. That you are losing an amazing opportunity to bond with the younger generation, the generation that is going to succeed yours and will run the world one day and therefore is very important. What we think matters. You can't just shrug it off. Shrugging off YA is like shrugging off society. And if you're going to do that, don't go writing off to the NY Times. Geez.
If he thinks keeping to the adult section of the bookstore makes him more sophisticated than the rest of us, then may he enjoy his bitter grapes in self-satisfied silence. ..."Well said! If that's what being an "adult" means, then I want none of it!
He is clearly just an arrogant elitist. I don't tend to care much what people like that think, and I'm not about to let a pretentious ass like him get in the way of enjoying the jewels of fiction that can be found in novels for young adults. And there is NO way that's satire. The only sentence in his article that is in jest is "I’ll read “The Hunger Games” when I finish the previous 3,000 years of fiction written for adults." And that's only a joke because he has no intention of reading any YA ever. Even in the blurb for his book, he sounds like a pompous idiot. If someone expects to learn something, doesn't that mean that they already know it (whether they want to admit it or not is a different story)? In short: What a tool.
Additionally, I take issue with his idea that books are the only intelligent media and the only source of learning as an adult, but that's a whole other can of worms. Ugh. Makes me sad to think that there are other people like him in the world.
Sometimes we just have to dismiss people who look to drag other people down. He's getting what he wants, which is a heated debate. I know several people who will take the opposite side of what I think just to argue the opposite point, not always because that's what they believe.I say Mr. Stein, you are welcome to your opinion but I will continue to read young adult fiction and adult fiction alike because I prefer to be well rounded. He's living proof of Plato's Allegory of the cave, those who chose to live in ignorance do and are therefore happy because they don't know any better. I chose to stop looking at shadows, maybe someday he can do the same.
To me, it's funny that he takes such a simple-minded perspective. I honestly can't think of anything that is so black and white that it is entirely dumb and insipid. YA is a genre that creates a love for reading that will carry into adulthood (as you did for me, Tamora Pierce - I think I went from reading only mandatory books to buying, loving, and finishing in one year all the books you had out at the time.) He must not have read any YA novels even in his youth, because I've found that many of them show more creativity, character development, and meaning than Adult novels. The Hunger Games, for example, is a novel that explores the repercussions of nuclear war, the problems of poverty and hunger, the cost of "victory", the loss of innocence, the problems of depression and PTSD, the blurred lines of revolution, and the indignity of the youth having to deal with the problems, atrocities, and arbitrary rules left behind by the uncaring generation before them. In fact, one of the reasons I was so angry with Suzanne Collins on the last book is although she shows an amazing ability to illuminate so many problems of the world, she didn't offer any solution. But bravo to the whole young adult genre for the amazing use of restraint and subtlety needed to make it age-appropriate, while maintaing the meaning of your books.
I am a young adult. I am 66 years young and I read. To me, the spine declaration is meaningless compared to the words within. Stein in his way was damning all genre fiction. I have often wondered why critics only acclaim mainstream contemporary fiction and decry genre works. Is not Moby Dick a sea story? Is not A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court an example of alternate history? I could go on but enough.
If the adult fiction was as good as the YA fiction, maybe I would read more of it. I am do not like fiction with alot of stupid violence and sex. I enjoy a good story, a story with a plot and character that I can like or dislike based on more than just how many people they shot or had sex with. Adult fiction is just too gross!! Most of the reason I read is for the pure enjoyment, which I find in fantasy and YA fantasy.Maybe he should have looked into a boarding school. Maybe then he would not have grown up into such an "a__hole".
His argument was not only elitist, but also biased as it focused on male adults rather than female adults. For example:
"The only thing more embarrassing than catching a guy on the plane looking at pornography on his computer is seeing a guy on the plane reading “The Hunger Games.” Or a Twilight book. Or Harry Potter. The only time I’m O.K. with an adult holding a children’s book is if he’s moving his mouth as he reads."
And:
"You can’t take an adult seriously when he’s debating you over why Twilight vampires are O.K. with sunlight."
This seems more like a jibe at male masculinity than it does at the adult population -- particularly women -- enjoying books such as Hunger Games, Twilight, Harry Potter, etc.
Erin wrote: "Call me Peter Pan, but if growing up means that I can't have my YA fiction without being looked at funny, then I'll happily say I'm 21 for the rest of my life!
Maturity isn't about putting away ev..."
Great reply, Erin. I would an adult read "The Hunger Games" or "Harry Potter" than to never read at all.
Maturity isn't about putting away ev..."
Great reply, Erin. I would an adult read "The Hunger Games" or "Harry Potter" than to never read at all.
Linda wrote: "If the adult fiction was as good as the YA fiction, maybe I would read more of it. I am do not like fiction with alot of stupid violence and sex. Well, not all adult fiction has that, either. I am going to point you at Jasper Fforde now. :)
But in a way, I do agree. I HAVE been trying to read more "adult" books, so I've been keeping the YA to audiobooks and for a while I was reading the Honor Harrington series (nobody can argue THAT is YA!).
I'm taking a break from it for the moment because sometimes scifi is overwhelming. YA doesn't tend to fill my brain with tech talk and war strategies.
Also, aside from generally enjoying YA lit, I also like seeing how life's lessons might be taught in new ways with new books (this is why I hated Twilight so much, no good lessons to learn there). I've been really into fairy-tale retellings lately.
Plus, if I want to have a kid, shouldn't I know what they might be reading? Is this guy really going to just let his kid read whatever and take no interest? This is the same kind of guy that just buys his kid whatever video games and then gripes later about how violent it is when it was his fault for not looking into it in the first place.
Katarina wrote: "Kirsten wrote: "I have a hard time believing he meant what he wrote. Can he really be that oblivious of how pompous he sounds? I highly doubt it. We are all entitled to our own opinions and pref..."Yeah--I'm sure Limbaugh is all satire too--yes, he can be that oblivious.
I will not even justify Stein’s condemnation of the quality of YA lit…we all know there is quality, value and talent involved in writing YA. However, sadly, there is a faction (even my own dearest friends often fall into this category) of adults who believe that the older the clientele you write for, the more prestigious? Intellectual? Mature? One is. I find it notable that this journalist is a WRITER and yet has the poor taste to criticize the WRITING of others. Secondly, I hope Stein doesn't have children. How sad for them that their father will never read a book with them and explore the themes, characters, and pure loveliness of the writing, thus edifying their desire to read. How sad that he will miss the rich communication and bonding that takes place at such times. How sad that he is so quick to judge others, to place his opinion of YA in print for all to see, and that if his own child seeks to please him they will never, ever be caught dead clutching a work of YA in their hands. Shame on Stein, and shame on those who condemn the genre. Set aside the fact that much of YA today deals with adult content (as our children do each time they leave the house) but shame on those who condemn the desire to embrace the whimsical, the imaginary, and the “childish” in others.
Go find something significant and esteemed to write about, Stein. Otherwise, the New York Times may not allow you to keep writing for their prestigious publication!
Honestly, he shouldn't make such a black and white opinion on anything he has never experienced, that alone ticks me off. It shows a closed mind to me, someone who isn't really willing to learn. But I think he is writing this uninformed, unresearched, written-on-a-bar-napkin-as-a-joke, let's tick off much of the reading public piece to get his name out there, did you notice he has a book out soon? Marketing - Good or bad, as long as they are talking about me?
Aha! Didn't know about the book...enlightening.
wow...fathead doesnt begin to describe that guy! I love all your books and I have only been reading them in my 30s. Of all the books I've read in the past 6 years (I'm 36), probably 90% of them have been YA. Mostly because I have a young adult for a daughter and I read books she brings home, but some I read because *I* discovered them or another adult friend turned me on to them, such as with the Hunger Games.
My daughter who is 18 loves books with female heroines which is why we picked the first Alanna book out about 5 years ago and its why we read The Dark Hills Divide by Patrick Carman, along with Graceling and Fire by Kristen Cashore.
My daughter and I sometimes quote your books to each other for no reason at all. I'll sometimes text her with a line and she'll text me back the rest (such as the prophecy from the Trickster's books.)
Something sparked with one of the comments above: young people at the age to be reading YA lit are quite sensitive about being considered "childish." Adults condemning other adults for reading YA are taking "cool points" from those books, and it is hard enough to get kids to read and keep reading. The fact that these books are enjoyable and valuable isn't enough in many young adult eyes. They need what they are doing (hopefully reading) to create interest and admiration from role models and peers around them. This columnist isn't just showing his own insecurities about reading, he's spreading them in a way that might infect more impressionable minds.
