The purity of fear, prejudice, and intolerance (the m/m rainbow has only one colour: gay)

I should be telling you guys about my Dark Soul blog tour. Or write a post about my lecturer at university who, I've learned today, died last August, way too young, a man I kept thinking of as "I want to be him when I grow up". RIP, Mr. Werth. You were (and still are) an inspiration.

Those will have to wait, however. What's been eating my brain (and you guys know it's bad when something is eating my brain, because then I brood and later come up with a lot of weird ideas) is this discussion on Dear Author, about fanfiction, slash and m/m and other things, but the discussion in the comments soon moved on to misogyny in m/m. The whole thing is interesting, and I'm not going to attempt a re-cap.

I believe the m/m genre is in a very large part, hostile to (fictional) women.

Back in the days - before November 2011, and boy, will I remember that date forever, even if those who "made it so memorable for me" - I'm trying very hard to stay civil here - have moved on and are pretending it never really happened - back in those days, the genre I write in was "gay only".

Not "gay gay", mind you, but "m/m", because the genre usually doesn't give a toss about depicting real life gay men. It's about the fantasy, stupid. Women in m/m writing are hated and loathed and reduced to the stereotypes of whore, bitch, fag hag, and disposable womb for the two men to get a child they can coo over without resorting to what fandom calls "assbabies" (a somewhat vulgar term for the concept of "m-preg" - or male pregnancy). Now, even the most gay scene gay guy I've met in my life has very strong female relationships; mothers, sisters, nieces, friends, friends and family of his partner.

Only gay men in m/m are stripped of female friends and family. The received wisdom is that "readers don't want to read about it". I've seen people loathe Jean, but I'd say Katya in Special Forces gets even more hate (this number is subjective).

It gets worse. Many gay men used to have sexual relationships with women in real life. Some were married to women. Fathered children. Oh wow, don't you dare write about that in m/m - people will not review you. The biggest, most important m/m blog out there will not review you if there's even one sexual encounter with a woman.

This abhorrence of what's called "girly bits" or "girl parts", or "vay jay" (the last expression makes me laugh; to my non-native ear, it's as bad as "her womanly molten core" from some horrendous m/f romance) is wide-spread.

They call it purity.

It's probably my cultural reflex, but using a word like "purity" for, in essence, erasing women, erasing bisexual men, and, if you think further, erasing trans* people (some of whom are men with "girl bits"), really gets my goat. Like it's something positive.

The hostility to trans* books is quite clear, too. I mean, here is a reviewer who reviews a book by a trans* guy ABOUT a trans* guy and says that it's not authentic.

And if a trans*/genderqueer book is written by an author who is too big (and way too good) to be ignored (you know, and wrote an award-winning book), they review it, but the comments immediately put the world back on its axis. It was a lapse, and it won't be a regular occurrence, Gods forbid we could actually include genderqueer and trans* characters in our oh-so-tolerant genre.

No, that's against the idea of purity.

Now, in my book, everybody can review on their blog what they want. People can post about how disgusting "vay jays" are and how authors are misleading readers, and how one m/f or m/m/f sex scene invalidates the whole book.

So, because there are three pages of m/m/f sex in Dark Soul, the other 306 pages are "sneak menage" and Dark Soul is no real m/m book (damn, and I thought Silvio being definitely coded as genderfluid in the third part would have given my game away).

According to some reactions, by not getting rid of Donata in Dark Soul, I've cheated, lied, misled my readers and I'm a liar, cheater and force my bisexuality down people's throats. The whole relationship between Silvio and Stefano is invalidated because they dare have fun with Stefano's wife for a night. It's a "let-down" and Silvio deserves better (yeah, destroying Stefano's marriage is clearly much better than his anonymous quick fucks that he normally goes for, TOTALLY agree).

I'm being told that I've misled people about this being an m/m romance, because, apparently, that's something that CANNOT happen in m/m romances, so I'm lying.

Funny, I didn't get the memo where a) I defined this book as an m/m romance, and b) where somebody defined those rules and every single m/m author and publisher actually signed this definition and defined penalties in case of breach.

I guess after writing three pages of (damn hot) sex with a woman, I'll get my m/m romance writer membership card torn up now - something I haven't managed even after killing a protagonist and writing about murder, torture, brother-incest, PTSD, rape, racism, genocide - I've FINALLY accomplished the biggest crime of them all: written a mixed-gender sex scene.

Mum would be so proud.

Actually, she would be. She raised me to be able to look in the mirror every morning and look myself in the eye. And I am getting sick and tired of this blatant woman-hating that goes on in a female-dominated genre. I know amazing, kick-ass women; I'm the child of one. I'm friends with women who can mop the floor with most men out there. Human beings who had to do real battle for everything they have. Women who sacrificed everything for their children, who stood up to abusive men and told them to get the fuck lost. Women who worked harder, for less pay and less praise than a comparable man. Women who rebuilt bombed cities without heavy machinery, stone by stone, with their own hands, because the men were dead and somebody had to rebuild the country and in the hope for a better life for their children, male AND female.

But that leads far away - I'm just saying that women are awesome, and just as strong, resourceful, intelligent and kick-ass as any man. There is no difference in gifts and abilities.

But, to return to the matter at hand. The problem I'm seeing is not for my own sales (frankly, writing is a financial sideshow for me - if I wanted to make money writing, I'd have gone mainstream ten years ago). The problem I'm seeing is the biggest reviewers in our genre have decided that "vay jay" is "yuck" and writers writing about bisexual men who are sexually active on the page, and protagonists who are not in the full possession of XY chromosomes and a penis, balls and prostate (read: trans*men) are not actually part of the genre.

Make no mistake: In our genre, reviews are everything.

Publishers know this; authors know this.

What this leads to is pre-emptive self-censorship.

It reminds me of the situation in Nazi-occupied Paris (I'm currently reading a book about it). In Paris at that time, more than 8,000 books were published a year (more than in the UK or the US). Everything had to pass German censorship (the Propaganda-Staffel). At first, the German censors read everything. But reading that many books is a huge drain on resources, so what they enforced was self-censorship. The publishers knew what was forbidden, and they were "trusted" not to break those rules.

If you're a publisher and depend on the Propaganda-Staffel for getting printing paper AT ALL, you made damn sure that the censors never had reason to complain.

I'm not using this example to fulfill Godwin's Law that every internet discussion WILL bring up the Nazis. I'm using the example to show how insidious and easy self-censorship is. All you have to do is teach authors and publishers what is not desired and threaten - in so many words - to withhold the primary resource, whether it's paper, attention, or reviews, doesn't matter.

And you *will* have publishers who internalize these things. Authors will not write books that have absolutely no chance to get reviewed. They'll "tone things down". Publishers will instruct their editors accordingly. Authors will learn from their publishers that trans* or bi content is to be avoided.

The problem is when the personal taste (or: kink) of the big reviewers DETERMINES the genre, steers it and defines it. It's very often veiled, like "it's not that we don't like trans* stuff, but we won't review it", or "We'd review it, but we can't find anybody who wants to read that", "anything but "pure" m/m will be a DNF or an F or a 1-out-of-5 star review, or..."

And this is the attitude I really struggle to comprehend. If they don't have reviewers, they can find some, quite easily. If they believe that only the "fantasy version of gay", namely m/m, is worthy of reviews, then they really shouldn't display Rainbow flags on their blogs.

Because the Rainbow flag does NOT stand for exclusion. Any GLBTQQ activist I know would be ashamed to think that the Rainbow has come to mean "gay only" in ANY part of the arts; and, yes, our little corner, where we create pulpy little stories, is part of the arts and wider culture.

The Rainbow doesn't only have one colour. The alphabet soup "GLBTQQ" does NOT mean "gay only and everything else is ewwwww". It's not "gay-only voices, and everybody else shut up because you're not feeding our kinks."

Don't call your intolerance, fear and prejudice "purity".

I believe it's time to discuss this, without prejudice, fear and intolerance. We are the other colours out there, and I, for one, will never self-censor myself to just one colour. I'm way more than that.



ETA: I'm turning off approval of comments for sake of discussion, but I *will* delete abusive comments.
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Published on March 21, 2012 23:06
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message 1: by Kazza (new)

Kazza Hear, Hear. I'm open to anything and if people 'need' to find someone who will review what they consider outside the box, then here I am. I, too, am sick of attitudes and censorship and people's silly little ideals on M/M and subgenres within. Another big whine amongst some readers is gay guys being unfaithful, or bringing in a third, oh gees, get real. I'm a therapist dealing with all manner of issues to do with LGBTQ, and hetero relationships, plus my son is gay. My son has me and his sister front and centre in his life, hello two females that he loves and we love him in return, that's real fucking life. We just took him to a gay bar for his birthday and we all had a ball, but we would be edited out (especially me I'm here to tell you) or made out to be bitches. I don't want women to be edited out of M/M I want them in there, active and decent (at minimum). I don't want M/M being watered down in M/F. I read a hugely popular series that has a gay triangle, lots of interest in these guys, but I get the impression that they will not get their own book because it may 'offend' more readers' sensibilities than sell copies. Oh, we get snippets but it's never real or there's never anything saucy like the M/F leads, it sucks. More transgender books are needed, I see very few but I'm interested and I can't be an island, However, I will be if publisher's won't touch them. Thanks for the blog, it's a good topic and I could go on and on.


message 2: by Darkm (last edited Mar 22, 2012 01:34AM) (new)

Darkm I don't really know what to say to this, because I don't understand why one thing should exclude another.
Women are women, some are good, some are bad. We can't love all fictional characters (I for one have a bone to pick with Katya), but despise them all or ignore them makes little sense to me.

I noticed that sometimes people seem to want M/M books to have only male characters and women are badly portrayed. Sometimes it makes sense, other times it seems a bit forced and stereotyped.

What I suppose is that usually what we get is thesis-antithesis and then, finally the synthesis. This started with M/F books, proceeded with M/M books and hopefully we will arrive to a point where it's really irrelevant what's down there.


PS I'm very sorry for you loss.


~♥*Marianna*♥~ In the links Aleks gave us some of the reviewers are using the excuse that females are so badly portrayed in this genre that readers are sick of it want to avoid them altogether when reading.
But isn't that the point of reviewing books? To inform others of well written or poorly drawn characters? What good can ignoring the problem bring?
Instead of abusing and discriminating any author who tries wouldn't it be better to bring our attention to the ones who get it right? The ones who are able to write a great MM romance but still to stay true to the spirit of women we see in our lives?
That's the kind of review blog I'd like to read.

P.S. Does anyone know of a good site like that?


message 4: by Lenore (new)

Lenore God. You're so right.
I want to crawl under a rock and die.


message 5: by Aiko (new)

Aiko I want to jump up and down and point everyone in your direction yelling "Read this post! That's my favorite author! Isn't he awesome??" Cause you really are :)

And you know I would have thrown a fit if you eliminated Donata some way. Just reminding you that some of us love that woman.


message 6: by K.M. (new)

K.M. Frontain I am so glad you wrote this. My stories include women. Many have a key support role. I've had comments indicating dislike of the women, comments disliking the men having issues with their sexuality, basically comments that demand or expect me to remove the human elements that make my characters more real rather than purely fantasy. I think it's enough that I set my characters in a fantasy world. I shouldn't be expected to disrespect women in my fiction. Nor should I be expected to make my men into blinkered lovers who exist in a world without women,without social issues or consequences.


message 7: by Christina (new)

Christina Aleks, I'm very sorry for your loss :(

I don't know what to add because you’re right on every count. It's doesn’t make any sense to me how people can preach about tolerance and then turn around exclude certain aspects of GLBTQQ literature. It baffles me. I'm just glad you're not conforming and I can only hope that other writers feel the same way.


message 8: by JustJen "Miss Conduct" (last edited Mar 22, 2012 07:02AM) (new)

JustJen "Miss Conduct" Fabulous post, Aleks.

For a slightly different take on this, I can say that I have been reading less and less m/f, m/f/m, for the sole reason that writers have been, for the most part, making the women out to be whiney, needy, delicate creatures who need to be coddled the minute they step into the picture. I can actually hear the male voices change tone when the cute nicknames start flying and the extreme coddling begins. This just does not feel realistic to me and is just about the only reason I do not enjoy reading it much anymore.

I have not had a chance yet to read DS5, though to say I am really looking forward to it would be a total understatement. I would not change anything about the rest of the DS books, other than my greedy request that they be longer. I do not expect I will be disappointed with the last one.


message 9: by Ina (new)

Ina Now that is something that has been bothering me for a long time. No, not bisexuality in books not the existence of women in m/m books. The fact that there is a bunch of women who read m/m stories, watch m/m movies and what not and they are disgusted when a woman appears in this stories. I mean WTF. As you say and most people before me say this is genre that is, hm let's say followed, by A LOT of women. And all these women are disgusted by...what themselves? Because, dear girls, believe it or not, each one of you has some sort of similarity to these women, no matter of they are strong, weak, bitchy...it doesn't matter. I'm a woman and I absolutely fail to understand how is possible to dislike book or a story because the main character(s) have some sort of relationship with a woman. It's natural. It's normal. A world where all men are gay, all women are lesbian or have-no-idea-what-else doesn't exist. Face it people. I also don't want it to exist in books. Why? Because I want my books to make sense, even fantasy and sci-fi. I want my characters to have normal feelings, believable feelings. It's really interesting because a huge percent of these women, who oh-so-much-hate-women-in-gay-books are often straight (I'm not saying all, but most I have seen), which means they have interest in men, which leads me to the following question: if suddenly your bf starts dating/going out/call it what you want with a man doesn't that turn you automatically in one of these so hated women? I really want to get some logical explanation how is possible to hate women when you are woman and proud of your gender. I fail to understand it maybe one day before I die I will find the answer of this important question which is bothering me for some time.

As for DS, as usual I will join Volya's opinion (that was expected) with one small difference. I actually like Donata. I wouldn't say she is my favourite character, no one can beat Silvio and Franco for a spot in my heart, but she is great. She is my type of woman, she is strong, even when she is facing some sort of a problem she is keeping her "cool", to be honest if I could be at least 1% of the woman she is, I'd be happy. True I dislike the end of the book (I'm sooooo sorry, it's awesome story just...) but the m/m/f has absolutely nothing to do with that. Maybe because I don't like happy endings that much (yes I'm sad person), maybe because I expected something else (regarding Stefano's decision what to do with his "business"). It doesn't matter, the point is m/m/f has nothing to do with my disliking (that's a strong word but currently time is pressing me to come up with better one) and I really want to show one or two middle fingers to everyone who claims the book is bad because of that. There are many reasons a book could be bad, but in my dictionary that is not a valid one. Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.


message 10: by Dani (new)

Dani Alexander In regards to women in m/m: I don't know about others, but my specific problem with 'girly bits' and 'vajayjay' (yes, I used that term often) was that I was having an identity crisis. The moment I knew I was trans, that I could acknowledge all those years of bragging how much more like a man I was, how I felt like a man, how I didn't identify with women, the moment that identity became clear: I was a man; I immediately lost all my disgust for "girly bits". I started reading het again. I began to imagine stories of F/F and I began my quest to include strong, capable women in my fiction. I determined that, while I couldn't make all women in my stories good, I was going to include as many strong, supporting women in my stories as possible.

I don't believe that all women have the same identity crisis that I did, but I do believe that something is causing this need to disassociate from the female protagonist and the female body. I don't believe it's a hatred for women, since most of the women on Goodreads and irl are friends with one another. I do believe it might be the lack of identifying with the heroines that keeps them away from het. Possibly the lack of realistic heroines. I couldn't identify with women and perhaps they are unable to identify with the types of women. There is a homogeneous feel to the heroines of today.

I do want to say though, that most of my gay friends find the vagina totally uninteresting, and some, a good number of them actually, find it gross. I can't hold that against women. If you're not interested in reading about the female body, I can't fault that at all. But, if you speak out about women's bodies being gross or disgusting and use terms like "ew", then it's time to administer some self-introspection. Not because you feel that way, but because you're saying it aloud. Guess who's hearing it? Other women. Your peers are hearing you talk about how the vagina is disgusting. You're saying their bodies are disgusting. Imagine all those voices coalescing in a young girl's mind?

To be clear, men do this as well with regards to cock. This is not a wholly female problem, but rather a systemic problem. When coming out to my husband, it took a LONG time for him to come to terms with my trans identity because all he could think about was me below the waist and how different and unattractive that would be for him.

I have to say that I'm fine with defining m/m romance as gay men only with no het. People should have choices and read what they want, if that includes no female body parts, so be it. It's good that they have a review site that caters to them. Personally, along with jessewave, I also read http://dearauthor.com and the http://the-ll-word.blogspot.com/ and http://stumblingoverchaos.com. There are a plethora of review sites and it would behoove readers to visit them all because they all offer different things. =)

As for trans lit, I can't really say because I'm still at a point in my self-identity when I realize my own limitations with FTM transitioning, and reading about other's limitations or transitions is very difficult for me. I feel almost claustrophobic again when I read struggles so close to my own. I hope that will change soon. I've bought several non-fiction books. Haven't had the courage to read them tbh.

Re the bisexual problem: This one hit me in the gut recently. It was the only time I came close to respond to a reviewer. Apparently s/he was angry about my character who (view spoiler) The reviewer thought I sent the wrong message with that. The message I thought it gave was that my character didn't like LABELS and that he chose who he wanted to be with REGARDLESS of the body parts below the waist! My reaction to that review was very strong and I felt frustrated enough to cry and I was very nauseous for the rest of the day. All I kept thinking about was someone bisexual or questioning reading that review and thinking that even in fiction, they're only allowed one way of being.

PS: It's very hard to follow the rules of m/m when they keep changing. >8(

Lastly I want to give my condolances on your loss. Mentors and heroes are almost as hard to lose as parents. They often fill that role, especially in University. My heart goes out to you and my prayers to you and his family.


message 11: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Cothern Aleks, three little words - I Love You!

This is such a strong message and the community needs to step up and sing it out loud. I was just at a FORGE (Florida Organization Regarding Gender Equality) meeting last night and the message was the same. We are all people and the rainbow encompasses us all, not just the "traditional gay" community.

Earlier this month I wrote a (very) brief blog on the labels "M/M, Erotica, & Romance" because I felt the need to vent. Throughout history, society has always categorized groups of people & things by using labels. It is not as if one person said, "this should be called X" but that society in general agrees on the label and that becomes the generic term for the group or thing. Only society can change the definition of the label's meaning and the only way to do that is to speak out against those who are trying to define the label to their own definition.

As a reader, I enjoy erotica and am always shocked that there is such an anti-woman attitude. 85-90% of the homosexuals that I know, be they male or female, have at some point been in a relationship with the opposite sex. Many are still friends with that 'ex' and have close friends of the opposite sex. I do not know why the m/m romance books think this is such a crime. Granted, fiction is just that but we all know that most fiction has a base in (or some touch of) reality.

As a writer, I can't tell you how many times I have heard exactly what you said from reviewers. God forbid there is a woman in the story even if the main love story involves two men. Not having streamline m/m bloggers review my stories because of this has hurt my sales, no doubt. But truth be told, I am okay with that. The fact that I am writing a solid story and feedback I get from those who read my work makes up for it. Would I like to have these reviews to increase my sales? Sure I would but I am not going to change my story to fit into some box that a label (I don't agree with) has been applied to. And truth be told, I am not writing to get rich anyways. If just one person enjoys a story I have written then it was worth writing to me.

But I am getting off track... There are plenty of readers like myself out there who enjoy erotic romance regardless of the label applied to the story. I would read any combo: straight, gay, bi, trans*, etc. If the story is good, it should not be denied access to readers just because it does not fit into the preconceived m/m reviewers idea of what readers want to read about. When publishers & reviewers start telling us what is acceptable for us to read, this is just another form of censorship (and it make3s my hackles rise!). Only the fans can change this by requesting these types of books. However, I am not sure even that would work :o(


message 12: by Emma (last edited Mar 23, 2012 08:26PM) (new)

Emma This is going to be perhaps, the second most knowledgeable blog I will read this year.

It is very hard for women and hetro men to accept and accommodate a bisexual. Mainly because in my naive view; we straight people love in simple equation. One man + one women = makes sense. The thing about bisexuals are (other than the fact that they add (x)variable to the equation) that they are more prone and capable of segregating and conciliating their emotions with regard to genders. Maybe we can call it their carnal / habitual acceptance towards people, but just because we refuse to understand a concept of a man loving a women with the same intensity as he does a man, our first response is mechanical reflex denial……repulsion. Something that we cannot understand, experience and feel irrupts in the category of disgust and displacement. Which is……………....well just sad.

I don’t know why people hated donate, to me the uncomfortable aspect of the ending had nothing to do with her. It only because hard to accept that such a storing perceptive women would just suddenly allow her husband’s male lover whom she met less than half a dozen time to openly participate and become a permanent entity in an “established couple”. The thing is, that it is very grueling for women to share / accept a third person with their husband regardless of gender and they are not prone to this idea that obligingly as often portrayed in mmf novels. That is the only qualms I have with this genre. Other than that, novels with this genre, yours, and other authors are highly enjoyed and indulged. Just that in those ménage, the third person is not the elusive, mythical, undefeated cold hatred hit man!


Sometimes, it so happens that in a novel, an author deliberately portrays the most malicious role of a female denying a gay or bisexual man his love of life and it forces us to be biased and hateful towards her. And in almost all MM Novels, bi sexual, end up with their male counterpart, leaving their well portrayed and well built bitch character of a wife behind. Since 90% of thee stories end up with male finally rewarded with his other male, we become adapted and exploited throwing out the female from the 20th floor without having second thoughts of how she helped him in his confidence in building his career, or was their at nights sitting and laughing at his jokes or how she made him feel significant in the middle of hundreds of other men! That and a lot more is edited, and we readers, when start reading such genre, we read it with a set mind of “NO wombs” to begin with. Which is satire, irony, and exploitation, all in once book.

I resent the fact that people think that way (as explained thoroughly in your blog) and refuse to even confront this issue with honesty in the name of categorization. The rest, of the people views on women in mm genre I just find immature and inane. We cannot and might not be able to understand a bisexual. and his ability to indulge and be satisfied in both sexes with the same attitude and same objective, but we can respect their choices and options.


message 13: by Trish (new)

Trish Ina wrote: "Now that is something that has been bothering me for a long time. No, not bisexuality in books not the existence of women in m/m books. The fact that there is a bunch of women who read m/m stories,..."

and i feel sad for those women b/c they re missing out on some excellent stories! i hope that "type" of female reader is the minority, because, i for one, being female heh, love m/m but i also love m/f m/m/f etc etc etc and i belong to a great reading site where dozens and dozens of female readers have this same love. im not saying the others don't exist, but please know there are more universally open minded readers out there too :D


message 14: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Cothern "i hope that "type" of female reader is the minority, because, i for one, being female heh, love m/m but i also love m/f m/m/f etc etc etc ..."

You are not alone! I love a good story and if it is any combo, it is all good to me. The stories with women who are weak, bitchy, etc. are more annoying than anything and to be honest, get less stars from me.

I think there are more women like Donata in the world than most people would like to admit. How many men fantasize about two women together? Why is it so hard to believe that women may have this fantasy about men and act on it if they get the chance? Why is it so taboo in m/m stories? It's sad really.


message 15: by Trish (new)

Trish ita brenda


JustJen "Miss Conduct" I agree as well. :)


message 17: by vessto (new)

vessto When I was new to Yaoi I heard for a first time about misogyny, moreover it was how females hate seeing other females in Yaoi. I admit, I prefer reading Yaoi with males only. But when it is about books and other RL entertainment in MM genre then ignoring females/hets is like ignoring GLBTQ community in the general books/comics/TV/movies.

Congratulations for this post!!!!


message 18: by Brenda (new)

Brenda Cothern vessto,

That is a great way to look at it. Discrimination can happen in all directions to and from any group to another. Sometimes it is on purpose and other times it is just ignorance. Ignorance I can deal with because a little education can go a long way. It's the others that I have to fight to not let get under my skin.

Brenda


message 19: by vessto (new)

vessto What makes me sad even more is how different discriminated groups fight with each other. Instead of supporting each other. Some even feel "offended" that the other group is listed as suffering as them. And so on. But it is not the human nature! I remember when I was a kid (noone taught me againts anything, I'm from atheistic family) I've always searched the friendship of the "different" ones - other ethnos, taller, with curly hair. That was my INSTINCT. For me in my childish eyes they were special and that is why not as the others. All that hate towards anything different, it is not our human nature. Not our instinct. This is the fear they implanted to us, to separate us and thus to be easy to rule us. My favourite quote ever is of Mater Yoda "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering.". They put that fear in every new born human, before he or she to can to think, taught them to disapprove things they still don't know what they trully are. Thus they raise a hateful generation, full of fear and anger. The ones that happens later to be from the kind they are taught to disapprove, they are in some cases more cruel than the others. Most of the people even don't know what their true nature is, it is erased from them from their birth and replaced with fake, invented and destructive doctrines.


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Aleksandr Voinov
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