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Kazza
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Mar 22, 2012 01:07AM
Hear, Hear. I'm open to anything and if people 'need' to find someone who will review what they consider outside the box, then here I am. I, too, am sick of attitudes and censorship and people's silly little ideals on M/M and subgenres within. Another big whine amongst some readers is gay guys being unfaithful, or bringing in a third, oh gees, get real. I'm a therapist dealing with all manner of issues to do with LGBTQ, and hetero relationships, plus my son is gay. My son has me and his sister front and centre in his life, hello two females that he loves and we love him in return, that's real fucking life. We just took him to a gay bar for his birthday and we all had a ball, but we would be edited out (especially me I'm here to tell you) or made out to be bitches. I don't want women to be edited out of M/M I want them in there, active and decent (at minimum). I don't want M/M being watered down in M/F. I read a hugely popular series that has a gay triangle, lots of interest in these guys, but I get the impression that they will not get their own book because it may 'offend' more readers' sensibilities than sell copies. Oh, we get snippets but it's never real or there's never anything saucy like the M/F leads, it sucks. More transgender books are needed, I see very few but I'm interested and I can't be an island, However, I will be if publisher's won't touch them. Thanks for the blog, it's a good topic and I could go on and on.
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I don't really know what to say to this, because I don't understand why one thing should exclude another.Women are women, some are good, some are bad. We can't love all fictional characters (I for one have a bone to pick with Katya), but despise them all or ignore them makes little sense to me.
I noticed that sometimes people seem to want M/M books to have only male characters and women are badly portrayed. Sometimes it makes sense, other times it seems a bit forced and stereotyped.
What I suppose is that usually what we get is thesis-antithesis and then, finally the synthesis. This started with M/F books, proceeded with M/M books and hopefully we will arrive to a point where it's really irrelevant what's down there.
PS I'm very sorry for you loss.
In the links Aleks gave us some of the reviewers are using the excuse that females are so badly portrayed in this genre that readers are sick of it want to avoid them altogether when reading. But isn't that the point of reviewing books? To inform others of well written or poorly drawn characters? What good can ignoring the problem bring?
Instead of abusing and discriminating any author who tries wouldn't it be better to bring our attention to the ones who get it right? The ones who are able to write a great MM romance but still to stay true to the spirit of women we see in our lives?
That's the kind of review blog I'd like to read.
P.S. Does anyone know of a good site like that?
I want to jump up and down and point everyone in your direction yelling "Read this post! That's my favorite author! Isn't he awesome??" Cause you really are :)And you know I would have thrown a fit if you eliminated Donata some way. Just reminding you that some of us love that woman.
I am so glad you wrote this. My stories include women. Many have a key support role. I've had comments indicating dislike of the women, comments disliking the men having issues with their sexuality, basically comments that demand or expect me to remove the human elements that make my characters more real rather than purely fantasy. I think it's enough that I set my characters in a fantasy world. I shouldn't be expected to disrespect women in my fiction. Nor should I be expected to make my men into blinkered lovers who exist in a world without women,without social issues or consequences.
Aleks, I'm very sorry for your loss :(I don't know what to add because you’re right on every count. It's doesn’t make any sense to me how people can preach about tolerance and then turn around exclude certain aspects of GLBTQQ literature. It baffles me. I'm just glad you're not conforming and I can only hope that other writers feel the same way.
Fabulous post, Aleks.For a slightly different take on this, I can say that I have been reading less and less m/f, m/f/m, for the sole reason that writers have been, for the most part, making the women out to be whiney, needy, delicate creatures who need to be coddled the minute they step into the picture. I can actually hear the male voices change tone when the cute nicknames start flying and the extreme coddling begins. This just does not feel realistic to me and is just about the only reason I do not enjoy reading it much anymore.
I have not had a chance yet to read DS5, though to say I am really looking forward to it would be a total understatement. I would not change anything about the rest of the DS books, other than my greedy request that they be longer. I do not expect I will be disappointed with the last one.
Now that is something that has been bothering me for a long time. No, not bisexuality in books not the existence of women in m/m books. The fact that there is a bunch of women who read m/m stories, watch m/m movies and what not and they are disgusted when a woman appears in this stories. I mean WTF. As you say and most people before me say this is genre that is, hm let's say followed, by A LOT of women. And all these women are disgusted by...what themselves? Because, dear girls, believe it or not, each one of you has some sort of similarity to these women, no matter of they are strong, weak, bitchy...it doesn't matter. I'm a woman and I absolutely fail to understand how is possible to dislike book or a story because the main character(s) have some sort of relationship with a woman. It's natural. It's normal. A world where all men are gay, all women are lesbian or have-no-idea-what-else doesn't exist. Face it people. I also don't want it to exist in books. Why? Because I want my books to make sense, even fantasy and sci-fi. I want my characters to have normal feelings, believable feelings. It's really interesting because a huge percent of these women, who oh-so-much-hate-women-in-gay-books are often straight (I'm not saying all, but most I have seen), which means they have interest in men, which leads me to the following question: if suddenly your bf starts dating/going out/call it what you want with a man doesn't that turn you automatically in one of these so hated women? I really want to get some logical explanation how is possible to hate women when you are woman and proud of your gender. I fail to understand it maybe one day before I die I will find the answer of this important question which is bothering me for some time.As for DS, as usual I will join Volya's opinion (that was expected) with one small difference. I actually like Donata. I wouldn't say she is my favourite character, no one can beat Silvio and Franco for a spot in my heart, but she is great. She is my type of woman, she is strong, even when she is facing some sort of a problem she is keeping her "cool", to be honest if I could be at least 1% of the woman she is, I'd be happy. True I dislike the end of the book (I'm sooooo sorry, it's awesome story just...) but the m/m/f has absolutely nothing to do with that. Maybe because I don't like happy endings that much (yes I'm sad person), maybe because I expected something else (regarding Stefano's decision what to do with his "business"). It doesn't matter, the point is m/m/f has nothing to do with my disliking (that's a strong word but currently time is pressing me to come up with better one) and I really want to show one or two middle fingers to everyone who claims the book is bad because of that. There are many reasons a book could be bad, but in my dictionary that is not a valid one. Sorry, but that doesn't make sense.
In regards to women in m/m: I don't know about others, but my specific problem with 'girly bits' and 'vajayjay' (yes, I used that term often) was that I was having an identity crisis. The moment I knew I was trans, that I could acknowledge all those years of bragging how much more like a man I was, how I felt like a man, how I didn't identify with women, the moment that identity became clear: I was a man; I immediately lost all my disgust for "girly bits". I started reading het again. I began to imagine stories of F/F and I began my quest to include strong, capable women in my fiction. I determined that, while I couldn't make all women in my stories good, I was going to include as many strong, supporting women in my stories as possible.I don't believe that all women have the same identity crisis that I did, but I do believe that something is causing this need to disassociate from the female protagonist and the female body. I don't believe it's a hatred for women, since most of the women on Goodreads and irl are friends with one another. I do believe it might be the lack of identifying with the heroines that keeps them away from het. Possibly the lack of realistic heroines. I couldn't identify with women and perhaps they are unable to identify with the types of women. There is a homogeneous feel to the heroines of today.
I do want to say though, that most of my gay friends find the vagina totally uninteresting, and some, a good number of them actually, find it gross. I can't hold that against women. If you're not interested in reading about the female body, I can't fault that at all. But, if you speak out about women's bodies being gross or disgusting and use terms like "ew", then it's time to administer some self-introspection. Not because you feel that way, but because you're saying it aloud. Guess who's hearing it? Other women. Your peers are hearing you talk about how the vagina is disgusting. You're saying their bodies are disgusting. Imagine all those voices coalescing in a young girl's mind?
To be clear, men do this as well with regards to cock. This is not a wholly female problem, but rather a systemic problem. When coming out to my husband, it took a LONG time for him to come to terms with my trans identity because all he could think about was me below the waist and how different and unattractive that would be for him.
I have to say that I'm fine with defining m/m romance as gay men only with no het. People should have choices and read what they want, if that includes no female body parts, so be it. It's good that they have a review site that caters to them. Personally, along with jessewave, I also read http://dearauthor.com and the http://the-ll-word.blogspot.com/ and http://stumblingoverchaos.com. There are a plethora of review sites and it would behoove readers to visit them all because they all offer different things. =)
As for trans lit, I can't really say because I'm still at a point in my self-identity when I realize my own limitations with FTM transitioning, and reading about other's limitations or transitions is very difficult for me. I feel almost claustrophobic again when I read struggles so close to my own. I hope that will change soon. I've bought several non-fiction books. Haven't had the courage to read them tbh.
Re the bisexual problem: This one hit me in the gut recently. It was the only time I came close to respond to a reviewer. Apparently s/he was angry about my character who (view spoiler) The reviewer thought I sent the wrong message with that. The message I thought it gave was that my character didn't like LABELS and that he chose who he wanted to be with REGARDLESS of the body parts below the waist! My reaction to that review was very strong and I felt frustrated enough to cry and I was very nauseous for the rest of the day. All I kept thinking about was someone bisexual or questioning reading that review and thinking that even in fiction, they're only allowed one way of being.
PS: It's very hard to follow the rules of m/m when they keep changing. >8(
Lastly I want to give my condolances on your loss. Mentors and heroes are almost as hard to lose as parents. They often fill that role, especially in University. My heart goes out to you and my prayers to you and his family.
Aleks, three little words - I Love You!This is such a strong message and the community needs to step up and sing it out loud. I was just at a FORGE (Florida Organization Regarding Gender Equality) meeting last night and the message was the same. We are all people and the rainbow encompasses us all, not just the "traditional gay" community.
Earlier this month I wrote a (very) brief blog on the labels "M/M, Erotica, & Romance" because I felt the need to vent. Throughout history, society has always categorized groups of people & things by using labels. It is not as if one person said, "this should be called X" but that society in general agrees on the label and that becomes the generic term for the group or thing. Only society can change the definition of the label's meaning and the only way to do that is to speak out against those who are trying to define the label to their own definition.
As a reader, I enjoy erotica and am always shocked that there is such an anti-woman attitude. 85-90% of the homosexuals that I know, be they male or female, have at some point been in a relationship with the opposite sex. Many are still friends with that 'ex' and have close friends of the opposite sex. I do not know why the m/m romance books think this is such a crime. Granted, fiction is just that but we all know that most fiction has a base in (or some touch of) reality.
As a writer, I can't tell you how many times I have heard exactly what you said from reviewers. God forbid there is a woman in the story even if the main love story involves two men. Not having streamline m/m bloggers review my stories because of this has hurt my sales, no doubt. But truth be told, I am okay with that. The fact that I am writing a solid story and feedback I get from those who read my work makes up for it. Would I like to have these reviews to increase my sales? Sure I would but I am not going to change my story to fit into some box that a label (I don't agree with) has been applied to. And truth be told, I am not writing to get rich anyways. If just one person enjoys a story I have written then it was worth writing to me.
But I am getting off track... There are plenty of readers like myself out there who enjoy erotic romance regardless of the label applied to the story. I would read any combo: straight, gay, bi, trans*, etc. If the story is good, it should not be denied access to readers just because it does not fit into the preconceived m/m reviewers idea of what readers want to read about. When publishers & reviewers start telling us what is acceptable for us to read, this is just another form of censorship (and it make3s my hackles rise!). Only the fans can change this by requesting these types of books. However, I am not sure even that would work :o(
This is going to be perhaps, the second most knowledgeable blog I will read this year. It is very hard for women and hetro men to accept and accommodate a bisexual. Mainly because in my naive view; we straight people love in simple equation. One man + one women = makes sense. The thing about bisexuals are (other than the fact that they add (x)variable to the equation) that they are more prone and capable of segregating and conciliating their emotions with regard to genders. Maybe we can call it their carnal / habitual acceptance towards people, but just because we refuse to understand a concept of a man loving a women with the same intensity as he does a man, our first response is mechanical reflex denial……repulsion. Something that we cannot understand, experience and feel irrupts in the category of disgust and displacement. Which is……………....well just sad.
I don’t know why people hated donate, to me the uncomfortable aspect of the ending had nothing to do with her. It only because hard to accept that such a storing perceptive women would just suddenly allow her husband’s male lover whom she met less than half a dozen time to openly participate and become a permanent entity in an “established couple”. The thing is, that it is very grueling for women to share / accept a third person with their husband regardless of gender and they are not prone to this idea that obligingly as often portrayed in mmf novels. That is the only qualms I have with this genre. Other than that, novels with this genre, yours, and other authors are highly enjoyed and indulged. Just that in those ménage, the third person is not the elusive, mythical, undefeated cold hatred hit man!
Sometimes, it so happens that in a novel, an author deliberately portrays the most malicious role of a female denying a gay or bisexual man his love of life and it forces us to be biased and hateful towards her. And in almost all MM Novels, bi sexual, end up with their male counterpart, leaving their well portrayed and well built bitch character of a wife behind. Since 90% of thee stories end up with male finally rewarded with his other male, we become adapted and exploited throwing out the female from the 20th floor without having second thoughts of how she helped him in his confidence in building his career, or was their at nights sitting and laughing at his jokes or how she made him feel significant in the middle of hundreds of other men! That and a lot more is edited, and we readers, when start reading such genre, we read it with a set mind of “NO wombs” to begin with. Which is satire, irony, and exploitation, all in once book.
I resent the fact that people think that way (as explained thoroughly in your blog) and refuse to even confront this issue with honesty in the name of categorization. The rest, of the people views on women in mm genre I just find immature and inane. We cannot and might not be able to understand a bisexual. and his ability to indulge and be satisfied in both sexes with the same attitude and same objective, but we can respect their choices and options.
Ina wrote: "Now that is something that has been bothering me for a long time. No, not bisexuality in books not the existence of women in m/m books. The fact that there is a bunch of women who read m/m stories,..."and i feel sad for those women b/c they re missing out on some excellent stories! i hope that "type" of female reader is the minority, because, i for one, being female heh, love m/m but i also love m/f m/m/f etc etc etc and i belong to a great reading site where dozens and dozens of female readers have this same love. im not saying the others don't exist, but please know there are more universally open minded readers out there too :D
"i hope that "type" of female reader is the minority, because, i for one, being female heh, love m/m but i also love m/f m/m/f etc etc etc ..."You are not alone! I love a good story and if it is any combo, it is all good to me. The stories with women who are weak, bitchy, etc. are more annoying than anything and to be honest, get less stars from me.
I think there are more women like Donata in the world than most people would like to admit. How many men fantasize about two women together? Why is it so hard to believe that women may have this fantasy about men and act on it if they get the chance? Why is it so taboo in m/m stories? It's sad really.
When I was new to Yaoi I heard for a first time about misogyny, moreover it was how females hate seeing other females in Yaoi. I admit, I prefer reading Yaoi with males only. But when it is about books and other RL entertainment in MM genre then ignoring females/hets is like ignoring GLBTQ community in the general books/comics/TV/movies.Congratulations for this post!!!!
vessto,That is a great way to look at it. Discrimination can happen in all directions to and from any group to another. Sometimes it is on purpose and other times it is just ignorance. Ignorance I can deal with because a little education can go a long way. It's the others that I have to fight to not let get under my skin.
Brenda
What makes me sad even more is how different discriminated groups fight with each other. Instead of supporting each other. Some even feel "offended" that the other group is listed as suffering as them. And so on. But it is not the human nature! I remember when I was a kid (noone taught me againts anything, I'm from atheistic family) I've always searched the friendship of the "different" ones - other ethnos, taller, with curly hair. That was my INSTINCT. For me in my childish eyes they were special and that is why not as the others. All that hate towards anything different, it is not our human nature. Not our instinct. This is the fear they implanted to us, to separate us and thus to be easy to rule us. My favourite quote ever is of Mater Yoda "Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to suffering.". They put that fear in every new born human, before he or she to can to think, taught them to disapprove things they still don't know what they trully are. Thus they raise a hateful generation, full of fear and anger. The ones that happens later to be from the kind they are taught to disapprove, they are in some cases more cruel than the others. Most of the people even don't know what their true nature is, it is erased from them from their birth and replaced with fake, invented and destructive doctrines.



