Editing Rant
Hey all, Robin here. So we have received the edits back from Laura Jorstad, for Nolyn. She is one of the two copyeditors we've worked with over the years because she (a) really knows her stuff (b) is familiar with some of the common mistakes that Michael makes, and (c) is a great Goldilock's editor - meaning she "is just right" - not too heavy-handed or to light on the touch.
One of the things I do for Michael is handle the bulk of the "heavy lifting" on copyediting reviews. Generally, it's a bunch of hitting accept or reject and anything that requires rewriting I highlight and send his way. Now, as some may know, I'm an ex-engineer (my degree is in Electrical Engineering), and as such, I'm very analytical. Also, I have a high attention to detail -- which is good when editing.
One thing I've learned over the years is there is a lot of disagreement within the grammar community when it comes to (a) compound words and (b) hyphenation. That's why you establish a set of references that you adhere to. One of the important tasks when going over edits is to stay consistent with your selected benchmarks. For us, we use the Merriam Webster Dictionary, and because it depends on what edition you are working with, we use the on-line version because it's the most up to date.
In going through some of the edits, I found something that enrages my "analytic mind." Notice the following use of hyphens: (a) back-to-back (b) hand-to-hand (c) face-to-face, Makes sense, right? But imagine my frustration to learn that shoulder-to-shoulder is WRONG based on Merrian's. In this case, there shouldn't be any hyphens and it is written as "shoulder to shoulder." The engineer in me resits breaking the "pattern," but my belief in adhering to the "bible" tells me I must. It doesn't mean I can't be mad about the fact.
NOTE: For those who are interested, I think it's because shoulder to shoulder is considered an idiom while the others can be an adverb or an adjective.
Maybe only I stress over such things. But I found it interesting.
One of the things I do for Michael is handle the bulk of the "heavy lifting" on copyediting reviews. Generally, it's a bunch of hitting accept or reject and anything that requires rewriting I highlight and send his way. Now, as some may know, I'm an ex-engineer (my degree is in Electrical Engineering), and as such, I'm very analytical. Also, I have a high attention to detail -- which is good when editing.
One thing I've learned over the years is there is a lot of disagreement within the grammar community when it comes to (a) compound words and (b) hyphenation. That's why you establish a set of references that you adhere to. One of the important tasks when going over edits is to stay consistent with your selected benchmarks. For us, we use the Merriam Webster Dictionary, and because it depends on what edition you are working with, we use the on-line version because it's the most up to date.
In going through some of the edits, I found something that enrages my "analytic mind." Notice the following use of hyphens: (a) back-to-back (b) hand-to-hand (c) face-to-face, Makes sense, right? But imagine my frustration to learn that shoulder-to-shoulder is WRONG based on Merrian's. In this case, there shouldn't be any hyphens and it is written as "shoulder to shoulder." The engineer in me resits breaking the "pattern," but my belief in adhering to the "bible" tells me I must. It doesn't mean I can't be mad about the fact.
NOTE: For those who are interested, I think it's because shoulder to shoulder is considered an idiom while the others can be an adverb or an adjective.
Maybe only I stress over such things. But I found it interesting.
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Gregory
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Jan 02, 2021 09:06AM
"Shoulder to shoulder" is an idiom? I had to look this up and I suppose the second definition ("united together to achieve a shared goal") is. The primary definition is "physically close together," which isn't idiomatic at all. Maybe the idiomatic use should have spaces and the primary use should have hyphens?
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Fascinating! Thanks for passing that along! ☺️Lisa
Hyphenation is a very subjective decision, LOL. I've been doing marketing text and legal contracts for years, and the hyphenation decision will vary depending on which grammar source you follow, who you work for, OR, if no decisions, all over the place! I tried advocating a more modern approach (thought by some) with less is more. We settled on hyphens in compound adjectives before a noun (which has support in other grammar manuals) with the exception of some long, descriptive terms that needed a hyphen pause. My opinion of the examples you provide: definitely agree with shoulder to shoulder is preferable, based on other resources. Easy to read and comprehend, no problem. The other one... yikes. Way too many hyphens. IMO, Merriams is hyphenating the first example because it's a long comparison. However, it is cumbersome to read. Adding all those hyphens may be an attempt to slow the reader down to increase understanding, which it definitely did when I read it. I'm still wondering about where it would be used, :). A more "modern" approach seems to = less hyphens. Again, subjective. I'm also an analytical person. My bottom line when rules are lacking is consistency. Make your informed decision and follow it throughout your document. When you read your page, what reads better? Then go for it.
Just a note (an editing note ;) ).Your 3 examples look fine in the (I assume original) blogspot post, but here on Goodreads they all run together, without the bullet list. You probably want to check whatever you use to cross post the blog to see if that's fixable; or hand edit the Goodreads post, but that seems counter productive.
Hyphens and comma placement are the bane of my existence. (Well, okay, not really, but they're like swarms of gnats--annoying and never seem to go where they need to.)
Agree with you, Cairi! What a great analogy.
Gregory wrote: "Shoulder to shoulder" is an idiom? I had to look this up and I suppose the second definition ("united together to achieve a shared goal") is. The primary definition is "physically close together," which isn't idiomatic at all. Maybe the idiomatic use should have spaces and the primary use should have hyphens?As Robin pointed out, it might depend on what you are using as your reference, when I looked this up. I found that it SHOULD NOT be hyphenated in either case. See this below from Dictionary.com:
(a) shoulder to shoulder >> side by side.
"everyone is bunched together shoulder to shoulder"
(b) acting together toward a common aim; with a united effort.
"we fought shoulder to shoulder with the rest of the country"
Christy wrote: "Hyphenation is a very subjective decision, LOL. I've been doing marketing text and legal contracts for years, and the hyphenation decision will vary depending on which grammar source you follow, who you work for, OR, if no decisions, all over the place!"Yep, that's why most organizations have style guides. They are the "definitive" bible that indicates the "proper usage." One problem we had when going over copyedits for my book is Del Rey used a different style guide than Orbit, so we had to always "put on the right hat" depending on who was publishing the book.
Another subjective item like that (which was different between our two publishers) is whether there is a comma before "too" when it comes at the end of the sentence.
"I'm going to go there, too." vs ""I'm going to go there too."
Christy wrote: "My bottom line when rules are lacking is consistency. Make your informed decision and follow it throughout your document."
I agree about consistency. That's why Robin keeps a long list of things like this and does global searchs. I'm glad I have her doing the "attention to detail" stuff - that would drive me crazy!
Leland wrote: "Your 3 examples look fine in the (I assume original) blogspot post, but here on Goodreads they all run together, without the bullet list. "Thanks for mentioning it. The "import" is automatic and many times there are formatting issues. I've corrected it.
Cairi wrote: "Hyphens and comma placement are the bane of my existence. (Well, okay, not really, but they're like swarms of gnats--annoying and never seem to go where they need to.)"That's a great way to think of them! I forget what author said it, but this quote always sticks in my head. "When it comes to commas I spend half my time putting them in and the other half taking them out!"
Lisa wrote: "Fascinating! Thanks for passing that along! ☺️Lisa"
You are very welcome.
