Stan Grof, Lessons from ~4,500 LSD Sessions and Beyond (#347)
Stan Grof (right) with the legendary Albert Hofmann (left), the first person to synthesize LSD.
“I realized people were not having LSD experiences; they were having experiences of themselves. But they were coming from depths that psychoanalysis didn’t know anything about.” — Stanislav Grof
Stanislav Grof, M.D., (stanislavgrof.com) is a psychiatrist with more than 60 years of experience in research of “holotropic” states of consciousness, a large and important subgroup of non-ordinary states that have healing, transformative, and evolutionary potential.
Previously, he was Principal Investigator in a psychedelic research program at the Psychiatric Research Institute in Prague, Czechoslovakia, Chief of Psychiatric Research at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center, Assistant Professor of Psychiatry at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore, MD, and Scholar-in-Residence at the Esalen Institute in Big Sur, CA.
Currently, Stan is Professor of Psychology at the California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS) in San Francisco, CA, and conducts professional training programs in holotropic breathwork and transpersonal psychology, and gives lectures and seminars worldwide. He is one of the founders and chief theoreticians of transpersonal psychology and the founding president of the International Transpersonal Association (ITA).
His publications include more than 150 articles in professional journals and books like Psychology of the Future, The Cosmic Game, and Holotropic Breathwork, among many others.
In this wide-ranging interview, we cover many topics, including:
Some of his main takeaways after supervising or guiding ~4,500 LSD sessions
The place and role of “wounded healers”
Limitations and uses of traditional psychoanalysis and talk therapy
Holotropic breathwork and some similarities to MDMA
Stories of odd synchronicities and the seemingly impossible
Stan’s strangest personal experiences on psychedelics
What Stan believes humanity most needs to overcome: division and destruction
I hope you’ll enjoy this in-depth conversation with Stan Grof!
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#347: Stan Grof, Lessons from ~4,500 LSD Sessions and Beyond
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Want to hear another episode that explores science and psychedelics? — Listen to my conversation with Paul Stamets, an intellectual and industry leader in the habitat, medicinal use, and production of fungi. Stream below or right-click here to download.
#340: Paul Stamets — How Mushrooms Can Save You and (Perhaps) the Worldhttps://rss.art19.com/episodes/a347d207-3697-4540-a7fd-5f5344067421.mp3Download
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QUESTION(S) OF THE DAY: What was your favorite quote or lesson from this episode? Please let me know in the comments.
Scroll below for links and show notes…
SELECTED LINKS FROM THE EPISODE
Connect with Stanislav Grof:
Website | Grof Transpersonal Training | California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS) | International Transpersonal Association (ITA)
Psychology of the Future: Lessons from Modern Consciousness Research by Stanislav Grof
The Cosmic Game: Explorations of the Frontiers of Human Consciousness by Stanislav Grof
Holotropic Breathwork: A New Approach to Self-Exploration and Therapy by Stanislav Grof
Other books by Stanislav Grof
California Institute of Integral Studies (CIIS)
International Transpersonal Association (ITA)
What is LSD? by L. Anderson, PharmD, Drugs.com
‘Apparently Useless’: The Accidental Discovery of LSD by Tom Shroder, The Atlantic
Dimethyltryptamine Experiments with Psychotics by Zoltan Boszormenyi and Stephen Szara, Journal of Mental Science
DMT Research from 1956 to the Edge of Time by Andrew R. Gallimore and David P. Luke, Reality Sandwich
5-MeO-DMT: What You Need to Know by Seth Fitzgerald, The Drug Classroom
Psychotomimetic Effects of PCP, LSD, and Ecstasy: Pharmacological Models of Schizophrenia? by Vibeke Sorensen Catts and Stanley V. Catts
The Consciousness Research of Stanislav Grof: A Cosmic Portal Beyond Individuality by Donna A. Dryer and
Richard Yensen, Textbook of Transpersonal Psychiatry and Psychology
Serotonin: Functions, Side Effects, and More by Annamarya Scaccia, Healthline
Electroencephalogram (EEG), Johns Hopkins Medicine
Hiroshima Atomic Bomb (1945): A Day That Shook the World, British Pathe
What Does Dharmakaya Mean? by Barbara O’Brien, ThoughtCo.
The Tibetan Book of the Dead (Bardo Thodol) by Padmasambhava
Savikalpa, Nirvikalpa, and Sahaja Samadhi by Sri Chinmoy, Earth-Bound Journey and Heaven-Bound Journey
Kensho, Wikipedia
Satori, Wikipedia
Maya, Wikipedia
What is Reality?: The New Map of Cosmos, Consciousness, and Existence by Ervin Laszlo
Holotropic States by Alex Paterson, Esolibris
They Saw Earth From Space. Here’s How It Changed Them. by Nadia Drake, National Geographic
The Rites of Passage by Arnold van Gennep
The Eleusinian Mysteries: The Rites of Demeter by Joshua J. Mark, Ancient History Encyclopedia
What Are the Differences Between the Teachings of Zen and Theravada Buddhism?, Quora
Chinese Esoteric Buddhism, Wikipedia
Hesychasm by Kevin Knight, New Advent
Saying the Jesus Prayer by Dr. Albert S. Rossi, St. Vladimir’s Seminary
What Are the Spiritual Exercises?, Ignatian Spirituality
A Collection of Esoteric and Cabalistic Exercises for Self Protection by Marcia L. Pickands, The Psychic Self-Defence Personal Training Manual
Psychoactive Plants Lecture Notes, Department of Plant Biology, University of Maryland
Ibogaine and Iboga by Seth Fitzgerald, The Drug Classroom
Psilocin and Psilocybin by Seth Fitzgerald, The Drug Classroom
The Ayahuasca Boom in the U.S. by Ariel Levy, The New Yorker
The Hazy History of Bufo Toad Venom Smoking, Tryptamine Palace
The Toad and the Jaguar: A Field Report of Underground Research on a Visionary Medicine: Bufo Alvarius and 5-Methoxy-Dimethyltryptamine by Ralph Metzner
When the Impossible Happens by Stanislav Grof
Church of the Toad of Light on Facebook
Esalen
International Transpersonal Conference
Realms of the Human Unconscious: Observations from LSD Research by Stanislav Grof
Michael Pollan — Exploring The New Science of Psychedelics, The Tim Ferris Show Episode 313
Psycholytic and Psychedelic Therapy Research 1931-1995: A Complete International Bibliography compiled by Torsten Passie
This Is My Attempt at Explaining Grof’s COEX Systems Theory, Presented in LSD: Doorway to the Numinous by JwJesso, Reddit
LSD: Doorway to the Numinous: The Groundbreaking Psychedelic Research into Realms of the Human Unconscious by Stanislav Grof
What is the Collective Unconscious? by Daryl Sharp, Jung Lexicon, via Frith Luton
Spring Grove Experiment, Wikipedia
Suicide Survivors: A Follow-up Study of Persons Who Survived Jumping from the Golden Gate and San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridges by David H. Rosen, MD, Western Journal of Medicine
Where Are They Now?: The Fate of Suicide Attempt Survivors by Stacey Freedenthal, PhD, LCSW, Speaking of Suicide
Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition: DSM-5
Dementia Praecox and Paraphrenia by Emil Kraepelin
Neo-Kraepelinian Divergences from Kraepelin: What Are They and Why They Matter by Lindsay Hoeschen, Portland State University
The Psychoanalytic Theory of Neurosis by Otto Fenichel, M.D.
Oedipus Complex: One of Freud’s Most Controversial Ideas by Kendra Cherry, Verywell Mind
Personal Unconscious, Wikipedia
Lessons Learned from Huston Smith’s Exploration of Religious Experience by Don Lattin, Religion News Service
God in a Pill? Meher Baba on L.S.D. and The High Roads via Wikipedia
Mysticism Sacred and Profane by Robert Charles Zaehner
Makyo, Wikipedia
1962 Good Friday Experiment, MAPS
Siddha Yoga
Shaivite Hinduism, Patheos
From Ganja to God by Geetanjali Joshi Mishra, Beatdom
What Is Bhang and How Is It Made?, RQS
Hashish vs. Marijuana, Sunrise House
The Essential Guide to Datura, The Third Wave
The Secret of the Soma Plant, American Institute of Vedic Studies
The Rig Veda
The Texts of Kashmir Shaivism, The Siddha Yoga Teachings
Shiva Sutras of Vasugupta, Wikipedia
The Dance of Synchronicity and Unexpected Meaning by Cynthia Cavalli, PhD, Fielding Graduate University
The Way of the Animal Powers (The Historical Atlas of World Mythology, Vol. 1) by Joseph Campbell
The Mantis and the San by Chrigi in Africa, Ranger of the San Clan
The Lost World of the Kalahari by Laurens van der Post
Ammonite from Mt. Everest Base Camp, The Fossil Forum
4 Bizarre Out-Of-Body Experiences That Turned Into Case Studies by Laura Martisiute, ATI
9 Things to Know About Ladino by Sarah Aroeste, My Jewish Learning
Spiritual Emergence Network (SEN)
On the Revolutions of the Heavenly Spheres by Nicolaus Copernicus
Paradisia and Dominatia: Science and the Developing World by Michael J. Moravcsik and John M. Ziman, Foreign Affairs
Atman and Brahman by Beverlee Jill Carroll, World Religions
Zhangzi’s (Chuang-Tzu’s) Butterfly Dream Parable by Elizabeth Reninger, ThoughtCo.
The Structure of Scientific Revolutions by Thomas S. Kuhn
The Chemical Revolution of Antoine-Laurent Lavoisier, National Historic Chemical Landmarks
Seeking the Magic Mushroom by R. Gordon Wasson, LIFE Magazine
The Road to Eleusis: Unveiling the Secret of the Mysteries by R. Gordon Wasson and Albert Hofmann
Kykeon by Joshua J. Mark, Ancient History Encyclopedia
Peyote and the Native American Church by Catherine Beyer, ThoughtCo.
SHOW NOTES
How did Stan first become interested in psychedelics, and what application was he hoping it could serve? [8:32]
In how many LSD sessions does Stan estimate he’s been involved, and what accounts for his initial conclusion that it would change psychiatry and psychology? [13:18]
When did Stan have his first personal experience with LSD, what were the conditions like, and how did it change his career path from that point forward? [18:45]
Why we don’t always have the right words on hand to describe psychedelic experiences. [21:40]
After more than six decades studying non-ordinary states of consciousness, how does Stan view consciousness today (in comparison to some other equally controversial views)? [25:22]
Why does Stan prefer the term non-ordinary states of consciousness to altered states, what are holotropic states of consciousness, and how have human beings operated in these states over the course of history? [28:26]
Stan’s thoughts on 5-MeO-DMT (methoxy DMT) and the psychedelic venom of the Bufo alvarius toad — which gave him “by far, the most powerful psychedelic experience” he’s ever had. [37:43]
Stan elaborates on his famous statement that “Psychedelics, used responsibly and with proper caution, would be for psychiatry what the microscope is for biology and medicine or the telescope is for astronomy,” and how he feels about the relevance of traditional psychoanalysis or psychotherapy in combination with some of these psychedelic compounds. [44:42]
What would Stan’s ideal experiential, psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy look like? [56:10]
Stan points out that there are non-pharmacological ways to achieve holotropic states — such as holotropic breathing, which I can confirm actually works. [56:57]
What substances, dosages, and frequency would psychedelic assistance take under Stan’s guidance? [58:52]
Exploring the neglect of etiology in modern psychology and how Stan would correct this problem. [1:03:30]
What makes the difference between someone emerging from a psychedelic state profoundly transformed or just experiencing it as a casual tourist with no persistent change of perspective? [1:08:47]
Stan talks about his experiences with Siddha Yoga founder Swami Muktananda. [1:18:07]
The reasons Stan wrote When the Impossible Happens, the stories surrounding this time in his life, and an explanation of synchronocity. [1:25:17]
On out of body experiences and a moving example of how unorthodox psychiatry helped someone overcome depression in a surprising way. [1:36:32]
What psychedelic at what dose is most similar to the effects or the experience of holotropic breathwork? [1:44:34]
Does the common psychedelic phenomenon of encountering entities seemingly separate from the person in such a state carry over to breathwork? Has Stan encountered these entities during his own experiences? [1:45:49]
What are Stan’s thoughts on microdosing, and what has he experienced at the tail end of high-dosage sessions? [1:51:18]
What constitutes a “spiritual emergency,” and are there any differences between a naturally occuring spiritual emergency like schizophrenia or one precipitated by psychedelics? Can any good come from a bad trip? [1:55:15]
What might treatment for someone experiencing a psychotic break look like in a hypothetical alternate world where the collective unconscious is recognized by psychologists and psychiatrists? [1:59:25]
From his first psychedelic experience to now, how has Stan’s concept of the inner world changed over the past 60 years? [2:04:36]
Is there any particular synchronicity or experience in any of the holotropic states that Stan has experienced that he finds the hardest to explain or the most unusual/remarkable? [2:08:42]
If Stan were a young scientist starting out today and all compounds could be legally studied, what would his focus be? [2:16:33]
At age 87, how does Stan stay sharper and more energetic than a lot of people in their 20s? [2:23:34]
What does Stan think humanity needs most of all right now? [2:27:46]
One final story: a lesson in forgiveness. [2:31:16]
Parting thoughts. [2:40:59]
PEOPLE MENTIONED
Jack Kornfield
Albert Hoffman
George Roubicek
Hanscarl Leuner
Stephen Szara
Zoltan Boszormenyi
Ervin Laszlo
Stuart Hameroff
Kary B. Mullis
Francis Crick
Steve Jobs
Charlie Tart
Arnold van Gennep
Isis
Osiris
Inanna
Dumuzi
Xibalba
Gautama Buddha
Jesus
St. Ignatius of Loyola
Ralph Metzner
Michael Pollan
Sigmund Freud
Carl Gustav Jung
Christina Grof
Adolf Hitler
David H. Rosen
Emil Kraepelin
Otto Fenichel
Joseph Campbell
Huston Smith
Meher Baba
Robert Charles Zaehner
Walter N. Pahnke
Swami Muktananda
Ram Dass
Werner Erhard
Shiva
Fritjof Capra
Laurens van der Post
Wolfgang Pauli
Confucius
Pachamama
Joseph Stalin
Nicolaus Copernicus
Chuang-Tzu
Doug Engelbart
Thomas S. Kuhn
John Dalton
Antoine Lavoisier
Isaac Newton
Albert Einstein
Gregory Bateson
Alfred Korzybski
Eleusis
Plato
Aristotle
Cicero
Pindaros
R. Gordon Wasson
Carl A.P. Ruck
Ken Godfrey
Robert Leihy
Helen Bonny
Walter Houston Clark